Rookie Questions(sorry)
09-03-2002, 01:01 AM
#1
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Rookie Questions(sorry)
I purchased a 1986 944 Turbo last week. Im a young guy that only knows how to tune Vw's Im new with Porsches. This is my plan, Im gonna fully strip the car leaving just a bucket in there. The car has 72,000 original miles on it. Runs pretty good. I want to make this thing crazy. Ive read about the maf sensor autothority offers with the chip, Is this a Yes or no??? Also what are mods you guys consider, I have enough dough for a turbo upgrade. But I am not sure on whats easy with these cars. Chances are I will have to change the turbo on the car pretty soon or rebuild it atleast. But what I want to do is basically get the car into the 11 or low 12 second 1/4 range stripped down with nice slicks, what you guys recomend????? Sorry If i sound like a rookie, I am in the Porsche world yes. haha, please help me out. THanks
09-03-2002, 01:20 AM
#3
Get the part number off the tranny and we can tell if it had an LSD from the factory.
THIS IS IMPORTANT
when were the belts and rollers last done?
The 951 has an interference motor...and if you split a belt you will kill the motor...
THIS IS IMPORTANT
when were the belts and rollers last done?
The 951 has an interference motor...and if you split a belt you will kill the motor...
09-03-2002, 01:30 AM
#4
[quote]Originally posted by Mangopito:
<strong>what I want to do is basically get the car into the 11 or low 12 second 1/4 range stripped down with nice slicks, </strong><hr></blockquote>
you purchased the wrong car if all you are interested in is putting slicks on the car and dragging... Porsche's are not drag cars....the clutch and tranny can't handle it ...and a clutch job for these cars is 1200-1500 dollars...and a used 951 tranny is 800-1500 dollars depending on LSD...
These cars are built to road race on twisty tracks. Sell it if all you want is a stop light car.
<strong>what I want to do is basically get the car into the 11 or low 12 second 1/4 range stripped down with nice slicks, </strong><hr></blockquote>
you purchased the wrong car if all you are interested in is putting slicks on the car and dragging... Porsche's are not drag cars....the clutch and tranny can't handle it ...and a clutch job for these cars is 1200-1500 dollars...and a used 951 tranny is 800-1500 dollars depending on LSD...
These cars are built to road race on twisty tracks. Sell it if all you want is a stop light car.
09-03-2002, 01:38 AM
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Well what I want is a nice 12 second car that I can race on curvy roads. I just want to know what are some basic mods I need to do to get to the 12 second mark. I hope the trannys arent weak on these cars like they are on VWs. I had my tranny rebuilt at 10,000 miles. Thats not a drag car either its a compact front wheel drive touring car. I know the whole concept of german Trannys, They are somewhat more sensitive than Japanese car trannys and require slower shifting, which is for track use. Synchronium isnt that fast. I completely understand the car is for track. But Speed is Important too. Its 50 percent handling, 50 percent speed and ofcourse 100 percent driver in any case.
09-03-2002, 01:51 AM
#6
realisticly you can put about 350Rwhp to the tranny.....the use of slicks on a 951 is what would bother me on hi hp cars when the slicks lock up with the road, the tranny takes a beating.
Talk to Danno at <a href="http://www.gururacing.net" target="_blank">http://www.gururacing.net</a>
He is the number one mad man around here and he can give you the info you need
Talk to Danno at <a href="http://www.gururacing.net" target="_blank">http://www.gururacing.net</a>
He is the number one mad man around here and he can give you the info you need
09-03-2002, 01:56 AM
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OOooook,
I don't mean to **** in your Corn Flakes but the 951 is really and truly not a drag car. People more seasoned than me have tried it with these cars and they don't do it any more because it breaks expensive parts that are hard to get to. You really can't compare these to Japanese cars either, it's apples and oranges.
Synchronium?!? Is that a new element I haven't heard of?
If you you want a car to mod cheap and drag race SELL THE PORSCHE and go buy a Merkur XR4TI. Independant suspension, 4-wheel discs, Turbo 2.3L. You can have a 12 second car and a few thousand extra in your pocket. Seriously. Then you can still tell your import driving friends with their hats on backwards that you still have a german car.
I've seen too many people who don't know what they're getting into try and drag a P-car and then when it breaks, they start trash-talking Porsche saying that they're POS cars and the (Jap car here) is SOOO much better... when in all reality they are abusing the crap out of it and complain about how expensive it is.
Unless you deep-sea dive with a Rolex, don't drag race a Porsche.
I don't mean to **** in your Corn Flakes but the 951 is really and truly not a drag car. People more seasoned than me have tried it with these cars and they don't do it any more because it breaks expensive parts that are hard to get to. You really can't compare these to Japanese cars either, it's apples and oranges.
Synchronium?!? Is that a new element I haven't heard of?
If you you want a car to mod cheap and drag race SELL THE PORSCHE and go buy a Merkur XR4TI. Independant suspension, 4-wheel discs, Turbo 2.3L. You can have a 12 second car and a few thousand extra in your pocket. Seriously. Then you can still tell your import driving friends with their hats on backwards that you still have a german car.
I've seen too many people who don't know what they're getting into try and drag a P-car and then when it breaks, they start trash-talking Porsche saying that they're POS cars and the (Jap car here) is SOOO much better... when in all reality they are abusing the crap out of it and complain about how expensive it is.
Unless you deep-sea dive with a Rolex, don't drag race a Porsche.
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09-03-2002, 02:23 AM
#8
[quote]Originally posted by Twinspool:
<strong>
Unless you deep-sea dive with a Rolex, don't drag race a Porsche.</strong><hr></blockquote>
what's wrong with diving with a Rolex? I dive with my Submariner all the time...
<strong>
Unless you deep-sea dive with a Rolex, don't drag race a Porsche.</strong><hr></blockquote>
what's wrong with diving with a Rolex? I dive with my Submariner all the time...
09-03-2002, 02:55 AM
#9
You have bought a wrong car !
It's not an easy task to build 951 to be a dragster.I have been a mec at the late '80's for a guy who won european championship in Prostock series (Pontiac with 500 cubic inches)I was responsible for the clutch & transmission.
951 transmission & clutch has not been designed for dragstrip use.
Buy a Camaro
Olli
'88 951
It's not an easy task to build 951 to be a dragster.I have been a mec at the late '80's for a guy who won european championship in Prostock series (Pontiac with 500 cubic inches)I was responsible for the clutch & transmission.
951 transmission & clutch has not been designed for dragstrip use.
Buy a Camaro
Olli
'88 951
09-03-2002, 03:35 AM
#10
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[quote]Originally posted by Mangopito:
<strong>Well what I want is a nice 12 second car that I can race on curvy roads. I just want to know what are some basic mods I need to do to get to the 12 second mark. I hope the trannys arent weak on these cars like they are on VWs. I had my tranny rebuilt at 10,000 miles. Thats not a drag car either its a compact front wheel drive touring car. I know the whole concept of german Trannys, They are somewhat more sensitive than Japanese car trannys and require slower shifting, which is for track use. Synchronium isnt that fast. I completely understand the car is for track. But Speed is Important too. Its 50 percent handling, 50 percent speed and ofcourse 100 percent driver in any case.</strong><hr></blockquote>
First the LSD question. Option 220 is for LSD. But the tranny might have been changed, so the sure check is to jack up both rear wheels and turn one of them. If the other wheel turns in the same direction, then it's LSD. Opposite direction is an open diff.
That said, I've always been real happy with the flexibiltiy of the 944 turbo. My car spends most if it's miles driving around town or to visit customers. Occasional use of carrying a load of wood or something else too bulky for the family car. It's alter ego is a couple of trips a year to local race tracks and autocrosses. Crusing down the strip like we did in the 70's. And yes, even a trip to Sac Raceway for a little quarter mile action. The car is respectable in all of these modes. To answer you're question, a 12 sec car can be done with bolt-ons and street tires. Yes, you will abuse the clutch and drivetrain. You absolutly have to slip the clutch to get the thing to launch. Occasional abuse should be ok, these cars are tough. Constant abuse and slicks will break things.
We've all spent money fixing things that break from abuse. How much depends on you. Just a tip, make sure the maintence items are done before you start building it up.
Enjoy the ride!
<strong>Well what I want is a nice 12 second car that I can race on curvy roads. I just want to know what are some basic mods I need to do to get to the 12 second mark. I hope the trannys arent weak on these cars like they are on VWs. I had my tranny rebuilt at 10,000 miles. Thats not a drag car either its a compact front wheel drive touring car. I know the whole concept of german Trannys, They are somewhat more sensitive than Japanese car trannys and require slower shifting, which is for track use. Synchronium isnt that fast. I completely understand the car is for track. But Speed is Important too. Its 50 percent handling, 50 percent speed and ofcourse 100 percent driver in any case.</strong><hr></blockquote>
First the LSD question. Option 220 is for LSD. But the tranny might have been changed, so the sure check is to jack up both rear wheels and turn one of them. If the other wheel turns in the same direction, then it's LSD. Opposite direction is an open diff.
That said, I've always been real happy with the flexibiltiy of the 944 turbo. My car spends most if it's miles driving around town or to visit customers. Occasional use of carrying a load of wood or something else too bulky for the family car. It's alter ego is a couple of trips a year to local race tracks and autocrosses. Crusing down the strip like we did in the 70's. And yes, even a trip to Sac Raceway for a little quarter mile action. The car is respectable in all of these modes. To answer you're question, a 12 sec car can be done with bolt-ons and street tires. Yes, you will abuse the clutch and drivetrain. You absolutly have to slip the clutch to get the thing to launch. Occasional abuse should be ok, these cars are tough. Constant abuse and slicks will break things.
We've all spent money fixing things that break from abuse. How much depends on you. Just a tip, make sure the maintence items are done before you start building it up.
Enjoy the ride!
09-03-2002, 03:46 AM
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Ok, thats all I wanted to know, Im open to new things. Breakin parts is ok. And yes To get a good launch You obviously have to slip the clutch and burn that piece of chit. Plus people dont get me wrong, I dont want to drag race. But I need something that will do 12s. My VW golf wasnt made to be drag raced but I ran a 13.7 quarter mile. Yeah I had to slip the clutch and eventually my synchros got messed up. I jammed in a slider sleeve. Broke a linkage but hey thats what made me happy. What I want to do with the 944 is completely different. Im gonna strip that thing down, Get a wide body fenders. Wide wheels. And as far as stripping the car, I mean completely. Starting from the air conditioning to any kind of motor I can find. Im even gonna sell the lights put some projectors in there . You people gotta have some faith. dont be so tight about it. I know how to drive cars. Ive been doing that in europe for a long time. And if you people need these extra parts Im not gonna need, let me know Ill be glad to sell them to you guys.
09-03-2002, 04:49 AM
#12
Race Director
"Well what I want is a nice 12 second car that I can race on curvy roads. I just want to know what are some basic mods I need to do to get to the 12 second mark."
Basic mods will get you into the 13.5s arena. Such as our <a href="http://www.gururacing.net" target="_blank">Stage-1 MAP-sensor Upgrade Kit</a>. And yes, we're a little ashamed that we did 1/4-mile runs to get those numbers you see on the website. This will take you to the absolute limit of the stock turbo and injectors.
Next up will be a upgraded turbo that can flow enough for 350-400rwhp. Check out the Garrett turbos from <a href="http://www.turboneticsinc.com" target="_blank">Turbonetics</a>. To get the most out of that turbo, you'd want to get a free-flowing 3" exhaust from the turbo downpipe back. Then you can upgrade to our Stage-2 MAP kit which includes a larger 4" K&N filter and 4" J-pipe. To dump in enough fuel to match the increased flow, you'll need 55 or 65-lb/hr injectors. An electronic boost-controller is a good idea to keep boost from dropping in the upper RPMs. All of this is will get you around the 350rwhp @ 15psi of boost and get you close to the 13.0sec mark.
To really get into the 12s, you're going to need to increase the overall efficiency of the engine innards. You can continue the brute-force approach and just turn up the boost, but you'll have a Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde type of powerband that's all on or all off and launching will be very, very difficult (not to mention tough on $1500 clutches).
To increase the internal flow efficiency, you'll need some headwork with a 5-angle valve job (also install 2mm larger intake valves from 2.7L NA car). Then follow with a port & polish job, port-match the manifolds and shave the head .050" to increase the compression to around 8.3:1. Might be a good idea to extrude-hone the intake-manifold and get it ceramic-coated on the outside to insulate it from the engine-bay heat (no hard data on this though). An intercooler upgrade is needed to run 18-20psi efficiently, combined with water-injection would be even better. An aftermarket cam is in order here along with an adjustable cam-gear. Retard the cam about 5-degrees to move the powerband into the higher-RPM range to keep your torque curve from dropping quicly. This will also help eliminate the instant wheelspin you'll get when you just barely tap the throttle with the above mods.
At this point, you're looking at around 380-420rwhp and can expect to get 12.2-12.7sec depending upon the launch. Plan on at least $1000-2000 in dyno-tuning time to dial all of this in. And also be prepared for replacing the CV-joints and/or axles every couple of months. And the $1500 clutch jobs at least yearly. A rebuilt-tranny every two years.
Somewhere along the way, you'll want to upgrade the suspension because the car will be quite a handful in the twisties with over double the stock HP. Simple way is with the 2.5" coilover kit from <a href="http://www.paragon-products.com" target="_blank">Paragon Products</a> along with some of their hacksaw Koni inserts. Stiffer swaybars can be found off the TurboS or 968 M030 kit. Even stiffer yet is the Weltmeister kit which allows you infinitely variable adjustments on roll-stiffness.
Finally, get a good attorney! Because you're going to have a bonefide 185-190mph car where tickets and arrests will be a regular event!!!
Basic mods will get you into the 13.5s arena. Such as our <a href="http://www.gururacing.net" target="_blank">Stage-1 MAP-sensor Upgrade Kit</a>. And yes, we're a little ashamed that we did 1/4-mile runs to get those numbers you see on the website. This will take you to the absolute limit of the stock turbo and injectors.
Next up will be a upgraded turbo that can flow enough for 350-400rwhp. Check out the Garrett turbos from <a href="http://www.turboneticsinc.com" target="_blank">Turbonetics</a>. To get the most out of that turbo, you'd want to get a free-flowing 3" exhaust from the turbo downpipe back. Then you can upgrade to our Stage-2 MAP kit which includes a larger 4" K&N filter and 4" J-pipe. To dump in enough fuel to match the increased flow, you'll need 55 or 65-lb/hr injectors. An electronic boost-controller is a good idea to keep boost from dropping in the upper RPMs. All of this is will get you around the 350rwhp @ 15psi of boost and get you close to the 13.0sec mark.
To really get into the 12s, you're going to need to increase the overall efficiency of the engine innards. You can continue the brute-force approach and just turn up the boost, but you'll have a Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde type of powerband that's all on or all off and launching will be very, very difficult (not to mention tough on $1500 clutches).
To increase the internal flow efficiency, you'll need some headwork with a 5-angle valve job (also install 2mm larger intake valves from 2.7L NA car). Then follow with a port & polish job, port-match the manifolds and shave the head .050" to increase the compression to around 8.3:1. Might be a good idea to extrude-hone the intake-manifold and get it ceramic-coated on the outside to insulate it from the engine-bay heat (no hard data on this though). An intercooler upgrade is needed to run 18-20psi efficiently, combined with water-injection would be even better. An aftermarket cam is in order here along with an adjustable cam-gear. Retard the cam about 5-degrees to move the powerband into the higher-RPM range to keep your torque curve from dropping quicly. This will also help eliminate the instant wheelspin you'll get when you just barely tap the throttle with the above mods.
At this point, you're looking at around 380-420rwhp and can expect to get 12.2-12.7sec depending upon the launch. Plan on at least $1000-2000 in dyno-tuning time to dial all of this in. And also be prepared for replacing the CV-joints and/or axles every couple of months. And the $1500 clutch jobs at least yearly. A rebuilt-tranny every two years.
Somewhere along the way, you'll want to upgrade the suspension because the car will be quite a handful in the twisties with over double the stock HP. Simple way is with the 2.5" coilover kit from <a href="http://www.paragon-products.com" target="_blank">Paragon Products</a> along with some of their hacksaw Koni inserts. Stiffer swaybars can be found off the TurboS or 968 M030 kit. Even stiffer yet is the Weltmeister kit which allows you infinitely variable adjustments on roll-stiffness.
Finally, get a good attorney! Because you're going to have a bonefide 185-190mph car where tickets and arrests will be a regular event!!!
09-03-2002, 11:56 AM
#14
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[quote]Originally posted by Mangopito:
<strong>But what I want to do is basically get the car into the 11 or low 12 second 1/4 range stripped down with nice slicks, what you guys recomend????? Sorry If i sound like a rookie, I am in the Porsche world yes. haha, please help me out. THanks</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
So $20K+ later you've turned a great performance car into something you could have done with a 93 Z28 for half the cost. Slicks on the 951? Don't forget the trailer and tow vehicle because you'll only be on the track. Making all the mods is fine but make sure you have the right tool for the job you're trying to do. I don't recommend drag racing.
<img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />
Parts are damned expensive so you'll end up working for clutches. <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />
Make into a track oriented car an you'll be better off.
<img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />
BOL,
Daniel
<strong>But what I want to do is basically get the car into the 11 or low 12 second 1/4 range stripped down with nice slicks, what you guys recomend????? Sorry If i sound like a rookie, I am in the Porsche world yes. haha, please help me out. THanks</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> So $20K+ later you've turned a great performance car into something you could have done with a 93 Z28 for half the cost. Slicks on the 951? Don't forget the trailer and tow vehicle because you'll only be on the track. Making all the mods is fine but make sure you have the right tool for the job you're trying to do. I don't recommend drag racing.
<img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />
Parts are damned expensive so you'll end up working for clutches. <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />
Make into a track oriented car an you'll be better off.
<img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />
BOL,
Daniel
