motec 4 or M48
06-18-2003, 01:07 PM
#1
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motec 4 or M48
does anyone run this in the 944 turbo...I guess i wouldnt mind getting rid of the old computer technology in the car but is it worth it. Will the new products control the car well . Now im told can be programed easily with a computer. Now i have the Map 1 kit from danno comming and have a 3" exhaust and dual wastegate from lindsey comming. Other than other small things still original. I guess what i'm asking will this be a better engine manegmant sytem than stock. They do say they can keep all guages and....etc working on the car
06-18-2003, 01:23 PM
#2
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Ian,
The Motronic does a great job. In order to get an aftermarket (standalone) engine management refined and smooth as much as the Motronic, you'll have to spend plenty of $$ and time.
I use the stock DME/KLR on my race car with plenty of HP. Check <a href="http://www.vitesseracing.com" target="_blank">www.vitesseracing.com</a> for dyno charts. So Standalone is not a necessity!
I had a 3.0L with an M4PRO.. Whoever told you that MOTEC is easy to use, obviously had plenty of experience with it.. or just does not appreciate a good user interface.
If you have plenty of $$$, live close to a Motec dealer/installer, willing to fly one in, or ship your car. Motec will do..
There are plenty of other systems out there, that do just as good (if not better) of a job, easier to use and setup. Plenty of good support and for fraction of the price...
The Motronic does a great job. In order to get an aftermarket (standalone) engine management refined and smooth as much as the Motronic, you'll have to spend plenty of $$ and time.
I use the stock DME/KLR on my race car with plenty of HP. Check <a href="http://www.vitesseracing.com" target="_blank">www.vitesseracing.com</a> for dyno charts. So Standalone is not a necessity!
I had a 3.0L with an M4PRO.. Whoever told you that MOTEC is easy to use, obviously had plenty of experience with it.. or just does not appreciate a good user interface.
If you have plenty of $$$, live close to a Motec dealer/installer, willing to fly one in, or ship your car. Motec will do..
There are plenty of other systems out there, that do just as good (if not better) of a job, easier to use and setup. Plenty of good support and for fraction of the price...
06-18-2003, 02:43 PM
#3
Fast951,
Can you tell me what are the limitations of the Piggy back/DME system compared to some of the other less expensive sytems like the SDS, etc...
I have been wanting to get away from the DME because of its age and will likely build a 3L with alot of HP in the future so have considered a stand alone but many people are saying that the factory DME with tuning capabilities will do just as good of a job unless your going for crazy HP like 600RWHP.
I always thought that the factory DME would be too slow and gets hot under sever work load but I dont know so could you give me some imput.
Thanks
Can you tell me what are the limitations of the Piggy back/DME system compared to some of the other less expensive sytems like the SDS, etc...
I have been wanting to get away from the DME because of its age and will likely build a 3L with alot of HP in the future so have considered a stand alone but many people are saying that the factory DME with tuning capabilities will do just as good of a job unless your going for crazy HP like 600RWHP.
I always thought that the factory DME would be too slow and gets hot under sever work load but I dont know so could you give me some imput.
Thanks
06-18-2003, 03:30 PM
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I posted a reply, but for some reason it didn't make it. So I'll post again.
The DME reads its input from the various sensors, does calculations based on data stored on the chip, and generates appropriate outputs. The formulas are static, the chip is static (unless you replace it), the input/output are dynamic variables. The PiggyBack alter the dynamic data.
In order for the DME to support a certain application, the static DME data must be able to do it. The PB allows you to fine tune it...
The DME works fine for any HP level as long as the RPMs do not exceed certain RPM (high 6000rpm). It doesn't matter if you have a 200hp engine or a 500hp. The processing is the same, the variables change.
Standalone systems allows you to have dynamic variables or parameters stored in memory (no chips). Also, depending on the unit, RPM may be much higher than 7000rpm. As well as other features that the DME does not provide.
Most very high HP 951s rely on running high RPMs. Others rely on running more boost and keep the RPMs below 7000 or so.
It boild down to what you need and how much you want to pay for it. If you want full control, you are changing configurations often, then a StandAlone may be the way to go. But then again, you probabnly have a race car.
If you want to set it and forget it. Few changes every now and then. The DME will do the job, assuming you can get the data (DME code) for your application.
All engine managements generate heat and are designed to handle it. Motronic a a great product, and if used withing the parameters it was designed for. It works fine.
The DME reads its input from the various sensors, does calculations based on data stored on the chip, and generates appropriate outputs. The formulas are static, the chip is static (unless you replace it), the input/output are dynamic variables. The PiggyBack alter the dynamic data.
In order for the DME to support a certain application, the static DME data must be able to do it. The PB allows you to fine tune it...
The DME works fine for any HP level as long as the RPMs do not exceed certain RPM (high 6000rpm). It doesn't matter if you have a 200hp engine or a 500hp. The processing is the same, the variables change.
Standalone systems allows you to have dynamic variables or parameters stored in memory (no chips). Also, depending on the unit, RPM may be much higher than 7000rpm. As well as other features that the DME does not provide.
Most very high HP 951s rely on running high RPMs. Others rely on running more boost and keep the RPMs below 7000 or so.
It boild down to what you need and how much you want to pay for it. If you want full control, you are changing configurations often, then a StandAlone may be the way to go. But then again, you probabnly have a race car.
If you want to set it and forget it. Few changes every now and then. The DME will do the job, assuming you can get the data (DME code) for your application.
All engine managements generate heat and are designed to handle it. Motronic a a great product, and if used withing the parameters it was designed for. It works fine.
06-18-2003, 03:30 PM
#5
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I posted a reply, but for some reason it didn't make it. So I'll post again.
The DME reads its input from the various sensors, does calculations based on data stored on the chip, and generates appropriate outputs. The formulas are static, the chip is static (unless you replace it), the input/output are dynamic variables. The PiggyBack alter the dynamic data.
In order for the DME to support a certain application, the static DME data must be able to do it. The PB allows you to fine tune it...
The DME works fine for any HP level as long as the RPMs do not exceed certain RPM (high 6000rpm). It doesn't matter if you have a 200hp engine or a 500hp. The processing is the same, the variables change.
Standalone systems allows you to have dynamic variables or parameters stored in memory (no chips). Also, depending on the unit, RPM may be much higher than 7000rpm. As well as other features that the DME does not provide.
Most very high HP 951s rely on running high RPMs. Others rely on running more boost and keep the RPMs below 7000 or so.
It boild down to what you need and how much you want to pay for it. If you want full control, you are changing configurations often, then a StandAlone may be the way to go. But then again, you probabnly have a race car.
If you want to set it and forget it. Few changes every now and then. The DME will do the job, assuming you can get the data (DME code) for your application.
All engine managements generate heat and are designed to handle it. Motronic a a great product, and if used withing the parameters it was designed for. It works fine.
The DME reads its input from the various sensors, does calculations based on data stored on the chip, and generates appropriate outputs. The formulas are static, the chip is static (unless you replace it), the input/output are dynamic variables. The PiggyBack alter the dynamic data.
In order for the DME to support a certain application, the static DME data must be able to do it. The PB allows you to fine tune it...
The DME works fine for any HP level as long as the RPMs do not exceed certain RPM (high 6000rpm). It doesn't matter if you have a 200hp engine or a 500hp. The processing is the same, the variables change.
Standalone systems allows you to have dynamic variables or parameters stored in memory (no chips). Also, depending on the unit, RPM may be much higher than 7000rpm. As well as other features that the DME does not provide.
Most very high HP 951s rely on running high RPMs. Others rely on running more boost and keep the RPMs below 7000 or so.
It boild down to what you need and how much you want to pay for it. If you want full control, you are changing configurations often, then a StandAlone may be the way to go. But then again, you probabnly have a race car.
If you want to set it and forget it. Few changes every now and then. The DME will do the job, assuming you can get the data (DME code) for your application.
All engine managements generate heat and are designed to handle it. Motronic a a great product, and if used withing the parameters it was designed for. It works fine.
06-18-2003, 03:49 PM
#7
Fast951,
That was a very good explanation but when you say that the factory DME wont work as well in the high RPM range do you mean if its like race conditions were the engine is over 6000 RPM for long period of time? What about if it is a street car and the engine can rev to 7500 RPM but will only do so for short periods of time. Would I still be able to use the DME/Piggy system? Why is it that the factory ECU doesnt work as good high RPM?
That was a very good explanation but when you say that the factory DME wont work as well in the high RPM range do you mean if its like race conditions were the engine is over 6000 RPM for long period of time? What about if it is a street car and the engine can rev to 7500 RPM but will only do so for short periods of time. Would I still be able to use the DME/Piggy system? Why is it that the factory ECU doesnt work as good high RPM?
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06-18-2003, 04:02 PM
#8
Fast951,
I was just on your site and you have some nice products. I was looking at the Piggy back system and it mentions high RPM for racing purposes so in addition to my previous question can you tie this into the answer.
Ian Kam,
Sorry to hijack this thread but I think this is an option to stand alone so I want to get some info on it and I think it could benefit many of us.
I was just on your site and you have some nice products. I was looking at the Piggy back system and it mentions high RPM for racing purposes so in addition to my previous question can you tie this into the answer.
Ian Kam,
Sorry to hijack this thread but I think this is an option to stand alone so I want to get some info on it and I think it could benefit many of us.
06-18-2003, 04:23 PM
#9
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Blitz,
The factory DME has a limited storage capability where the static data values reside. Look at as an array, where your RPM is an index into it. The array size is limited therefore your RPM cannot exceed a certain range.
Assuming you get around the hydraulic lifters limitaion and you are able to run over 7000rpm. The DME uses the same Static values up to a certain RPM and whatever RPM beyound it.
A better way of presenting it, would be to say that the DME is not very granular to accomodate high RPMs.
The PiggyBack is capable of handling application that run high RPMs. It's a configuration parameter. However for the 951, you are limited to whatever the DME can do.
Hope I was clear, and din't confuse the subject.
The factory DME has a limited storage capability where the static data values reside. Look at as an array, where your RPM is an index into it. The array size is limited therefore your RPM cannot exceed a certain range.
Assuming you get around the hydraulic lifters limitaion and you are able to run over 7000rpm. The DME uses the same Static values up to a certain RPM and whatever RPM beyound it.
A better way of presenting it, would be to say that the DME is not very granular to accomodate high RPMs.
The PiggyBack is capable of handling application that run high RPMs. It's a configuration parameter. However for the 951, you are limited to whatever the DME can do.
Hope I was clear, and din't confuse the subject.
06-18-2003, 05:19 PM
#10
Fast951,
You have been very informative and I think very clear.
It sounds like the Piggyback is a great system unless your building a high RPM engine(over 6000 RPM) which is something I may do in the future.
You have been very informative and I think very clear.
It sounds like the Piggyback is a great system unless your building a high RPM engine(over 6000 RPM) which is something I may do in the future.
06-18-2003, 05:33 PM
#11
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The DME PB (combo) are fine up to 7000rpm. PB by itself is not limited to 7000rpm.
Keep in mind, if you plan on constantly going higher than 6800rpm, you need to change lifters. At that point, you can get custom valves, springs... and you can pick your cam. A dry sump setup will be a VERY good insurance.. Of course, you have deviated so much from the stock setup, therefore A standalone might be better choice for you.
Keep in mind, if you plan on constantly going higher than 6800rpm, you need to change lifters. At that point, you can get custom valves, springs... and you can pick your cam. A dry sump setup will be a VERY good insurance.. Of course, you have deviated so much from the stock setup, therefore A standalone might be better choice for you.
06-19-2003, 06:20 PM
#14
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I considered Motec for my 928, but the cost and time is CRAZY for the gain. As long as you can get the right amount of fuel in and light it off at the right time, it doesn't matter what you use.
06-19-2003, 07:36 PM
#15
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I considered it as well for my car as that is the only option left to do with it. The cost is outrageous. Motec is the very best though. It doesn't require frequent tweeks, will allow better tq curves throughout the board and will actually save the motor should you over rev it. I need that as my car goes through my gears way too fast. If I did go Motec, I would buy a clutchless tranny with different gearing. Sorry, just dreaming...