Calibrating 944 Sunroof after gear replace?
03-17-2003, 12:49 PM
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Calibrating 944 Sunroof after gear replace?
Found good 944 Sunroof Operation article at pelicanparts.com (thanks Wayne!). Armed with this data I "tore" into my headliner and replaced both stripped nylon sunroof gears.
The article leaves me a bit confused and I'm having trouble "setting" the retractor arms in the right position so they go up/down and unlock upon the right button. I have no reason to believe the micro-switches are out of adjustment. The nylon gears, like everything else on my 1986 just got brittle and gave up.
Any additional articles or folks you might reference who could tell me how to get a "reference point" and set the arms?
Thanks! Mark Beitzel 944Turbo 1986/Late
The article leaves me a bit confused and I'm having trouble "setting" the retractor arms in the right position so they go up/down and unlock upon the right button. I have no reason to believe the micro-switches are out of adjustment. The nylon gears, like everything else on my 1986 just got brittle and gave up.
Any additional articles or folks you might reference who could tell me how to get a "reference point" and set the arms?
Thanks! Mark Beitzel 944Turbo 1986/Late
03-17-2003, 01:32 PM
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Ok i did this a couple months back! My first DIY job too. When you remove those black metal arms taht lift the roof, those have to be replaced back in their exact position. I made sure they were all the way retracted in the back position before i removed them. So that would be all the in, as if you were going to take off the roof. The button would have been held down all the way (towards you). After they were replaced, pressing up on the button, they seemed to align correctly. Is that what you are asking?
03-17-2003, 01:58 PM
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Yes, sorta. Since my gears were totally stripped there was no way to mark the arms or tell when they were all the way back.
Question, when you say "all the way back with the button", I assume you are referring to the ignition key switch in the "first (roof removal)click position"? When I do this....the roof motor seems to run endlessly....therefore I never really know when it's back far enough.
Any additional ideas welcomed.....thanks!
Question, when you say "all the way back with the button", I assume you are referring to the ignition key switch in the "first (roof removal)click position"? When I do this....the roof motor seems to run endlessly....therefore I never really know when it's back far enough.
Any additional ideas welcomed.....thanks!
03-17-2003, 02:23 PM
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Mark,
I (had) an extensive document that I put together out on the web about how to adjust the sunroof.
I'll look for it tonight when I get home. By 10pm central I should have it and I'll post it on the web again and let you know here to see it.
I (had) an extensive document that I put together out on the web about how to adjust the sunroof.
I'll look for it tonight when I get home. By 10pm central I should have it and I'll post it on the web again and let you know here to see it.
03-17-2003, 07:22 PM
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Thanks Michael. I need to see this also. I replaced my two broken gears and they were not set exactly like the Pelican article, which I saw later, and one of them broke. Now I am trying again. I guess that is why everyone suggested to buy more than one set of gears when changing these.
03-17-2003, 08:21 PM
#6
You need to make sure the limit switches are adjusted properly & the actuating cam (on the motor) is in the correct position before you install the lifting arms. Also, check the slip clutch. I adjusted mine so that it can just lift the roof. I just did mine a few weeks ago and followed this procedure: <a href="http://www.type-911.co.uk/images/general/text/944%20Sunroof%20Operation.htm" target="_blank">944 Sunroof Operation</a>. Good luck.
03-18-2003, 09:08 PM
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Michael (aka SASILVERBULLET),
Wer you able to locate the sunroof instructions you referenced in your note yesterday? If you could post it or sent directly, it would be much appreciated! Thanks - Mark
Wer you able to locate the sunroof instructions you referenced in your note yesterday? If you could post it or sent directly, it would be much appreciated! Thanks - Mark
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03-19-2003, 12:56 AM
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I found it! Here it is:
Ok, here goes. I'm going to be as descriptive as possible, not assuming any prior knowledge...
Let's go at this with first understanding what is supposed to happen:
1. Turn the ignition to the first position (position 1). In this key position, and ONLY this key position, pressing the bottom of the sunroof switch should unlock the sunroof. This means that the arms will come down all the way and stop, freeing up the sunroof to come off.
2. With the key still in the first position, but now pressing the upper portion of the sunroof switch, the arms should move up and engage the sunroof and lock it in place.
Both 1 and 2 above should NOT require you to let up on the button. The micro switches should stop the arms at the proper time.
Now let's talk about the ignition key in position 2. (this is the click right before the starter engages, this is the same as when you're driving down the road)
3. With the key in position 2, pressing the bottom of the sunroof switch should make the sunroof raise. Once again it should automatically stop without you letting up on the switch.
4. With the key in position 2, and the sunroof raised, pressing the upper portion of the sunroof switch should make the sunroof move to the closed position. Once again it should automatically stop without you letting up on the switch. The sunroof should also be locked down tight enough so that if you try to 'press up' on it with your hand, it should not move.
Now that you know what it 'should' do, you'll have a goal to work for…
My instructions below will try to get you to adjust it WITHOUT having to gain access to the gear assemblies on the sunroof.
NOTE: If you're sunroof gears are stripped, or if one side of the sunroof is not level with the other side, then you'll need to straighten that out BEFORE you press on with this switch adjustment checklist. That procedure will be in a subsequent checklist…
5. Gain access to the motor. It's fairly easy to do. It's in the rear compartment, drivers side, behind the side carpet.
6. You'll need a 17mm socket wrench to manually turn the sunroof. There's a round access cover on the motor assembly. Remove it and you'll see the nut. SLOWLY turn the nut until you're satisfied that the sunroof is fully locked in place (you can't push up on it). Turning the nut counter-clockwise raises it.
7. Remove the three 10mm nuts that hold the motor assembly in place and move it so that you can see the rear of the assembly (don't remove the cable!)
Before we go any further, I need to describe what you SHOULD be seeing at this moment. Look at the side of the assembly with the nut you turned. You will see two micro-switches at the top of the assembly. Of course Porsche named them in reverse, the top switch is switch II, the bottom one is switch one. Switch one is the key switch that tends to goof up the most and cause problems. Here's the fun part, it's usually not because the switch is broke, it's usually because the mounting bracket has bent a little over the years causing the micro-switch not to make correctly. There is a third switch on the back of the assembly that hopefully, you won't have to deal with.
Now back to work…
8. With the sunroof carefully locked in place manually, look closely at the underside of the micro-switches. The little metal arm on switch 1 (bottom switch) should be close to the ceramic part of the switch. In other words, the switch should be actuated, or made.
9. Now look at switch 2, it's metal arm should be down (not actuated).
The goal is to have the sunroof locked in place, switch 1 made, and switch 2 not made. Once these switches are properly set, your sunroof will probably work correctly without you having to do anything else.
10. On the rear of the motor assembly, you'll see a white plastic cam attached to a cable. We need to make sure that the white actuating arm, or cam, is in it's proper place. Look at the area around the switch arms. See how the cam has an indentation so that switch 2's arm can be down, while the cam is forcing switch 1's arm up.
Spend some time here and make sure you see the cam and how it actuates the micro-switches. You can move the sunroof manually at this point to get a feel for whether the switches are engaging or not. You should be able to hear a faint 'click' when the switches are engaged. If you don't, don't sweat it, it's VERY faint. Don't forget to carefully position the sunroof to the fully locked position when you're done.
Back to the adjustment…
11. Looking at the micro-switches, look to see if they are evenly parallel to the plastic cam. If they're not, CAREFULLY bend the switch mounting bracket with a pair of needle nose pliers until they are evenly parallel. STOP!!
12. Once you've done this, ops check what you've done, you've probably already fixed the problem. Just put the motor assembly back in place with two bolts, finger tight, and then check to see if the sunroof works correctly.
13. If it doesn't, then try bending the mounting bracket a little so that switch 1 (bottom one) is a little closer to the cam than the other micro-switch. Then ops check it again.
14. If this still doesn't fix it, unscrew the micro-switches and move them left to right to get switch 1 to be engaged, and switch 2 not engaged. Then ops check it again.
15. If it's still not functioning correctly, you may have a bad switch. Find someone that has an ohm-meter and have them check to see if the switch is functioning correctly. If it is, there are two relays mounted on the motor assembly. Take them out carefully one at a time and gently tap them on the ground, then re-install them.
Ok, here goes. I'm going to be as descriptive as possible, not assuming any prior knowledge...
Let's go at this with first understanding what is supposed to happen:
1. Turn the ignition to the first position (position 1). In this key position, and ONLY this key position, pressing the bottom of the sunroof switch should unlock the sunroof. This means that the arms will come down all the way and stop, freeing up the sunroof to come off.
2. With the key still in the first position, but now pressing the upper portion of the sunroof switch, the arms should move up and engage the sunroof and lock it in place.
Both 1 and 2 above should NOT require you to let up on the button. The micro switches should stop the arms at the proper time.
Now let's talk about the ignition key in position 2. (this is the click right before the starter engages, this is the same as when you're driving down the road)
3. With the key in position 2, pressing the bottom of the sunroof switch should make the sunroof raise. Once again it should automatically stop without you letting up on the switch.
4. With the key in position 2, and the sunroof raised, pressing the upper portion of the sunroof switch should make the sunroof move to the closed position. Once again it should automatically stop without you letting up on the switch. The sunroof should also be locked down tight enough so that if you try to 'press up' on it with your hand, it should not move.
Now that you know what it 'should' do, you'll have a goal to work for…
My instructions below will try to get you to adjust it WITHOUT having to gain access to the gear assemblies on the sunroof.
NOTE: If you're sunroof gears are stripped, or if one side of the sunroof is not level with the other side, then you'll need to straighten that out BEFORE you press on with this switch adjustment checklist. That procedure will be in a subsequent checklist…
5. Gain access to the motor. It's fairly easy to do. It's in the rear compartment, drivers side, behind the side carpet.
6. You'll need a 17mm socket wrench to manually turn the sunroof. There's a round access cover on the motor assembly. Remove it and you'll see the nut. SLOWLY turn the nut until you're satisfied that the sunroof is fully locked in place (you can't push up on it). Turning the nut counter-clockwise raises it.
7. Remove the three 10mm nuts that hold the motor assembly in place and move it so that you can see the rear of the assembly (don't remove the cable!)
Before we go any further, I need to describe what you SHOULD be seeing at this moment. Look at the side of the assembly with the nut you turned. You will see two micro-switches at the top of the assembly. Of course Porsche named them in reverse, the top switch is switch II, the bottom one is switch one. Switch one is the key switch that tends to goof up the most and cause problems. Here's the fun part, it's usually not because the switch is broke, it's usually because the mounting bracket has bent a little over the years causing the micro-switch not to make correctly. There is a third switch on the back of the assembly that hopefully, you won't have to deal with.
Now back to work…
8. With the sunroof carefully locked in place manually, look closely at the underside of the micro-switches. The little metal arm on switch 1 (bottom switch) should be close to the ceramic part of the switch. In other words, the switch should be actuated, or made.
9. Now look at switch 2, it's metal arm should be down (not actuated).
The goal is to have the sunroof locked in place, switch 1 made, and switch 2 not made. Once these switches are properly set, your sunroof will probably work correctly without you having to do anything else.
10. On the rear of the motor assembly, you'll see a white plastic cam attached to a cable. We need to make sure that the white actuating arm, or cam, is in it's proper place. Look at the area around the switch arms. See how the cam has an indentation so that switch 2's arm can be down, while the cam is forcing switch 1's arm up.
Spend some time here and make sure you see the cam and how it actuates the micro-switches. You can move the sunroof manually at this point to get a feel for whether the switches are engaging or not. You should be able to hear a faint 'click' when the switches are engaged. If you don't, don't sweat it, it's VERY faint. Don't forget to carefully position the sunroof to the fully locked position when you're done.
Back to the adjustment…
11. Looking at the micro-switches, look to see if they are evenly parallel to the plastic cam. If they're not, CAREFULLY bend the switch mounting bracket with a pair of needle nose pliers until they are evenly parallel. STOP!!
12. Once you've done this, ops check what you've done, you've probably already fixed the problem. Just put the motor assembly back in place with two bolts, finger tight, and then check to see if the sunroof works correctly.
13. If it doesn't, then try bending the mounting bracket a little so that switch 1 (bottom one) is a little closer to the cam than the other micro-switch. Then ops check it again.
14. If this still doesn't fix it, unscrew the micro-switches and move them left to right to get switch 1 to be engaged, and switch 2 not engaged. Then ops check it again.
15. If it's still not functioning correctly, you may have a bad switch. Find someone that has an ohm-meter and have them check to see if the switch is functioning correctly. If it is, there are two relays mounted on the motor assembly. Take them out carefully one at a time and gently tap them on the ground, then re-install them.
03-19-2003, 08:33 AM
#10
Michael, sorry, but I'm not sure this is completely correct. I don't think switch 2 is used to stop the lifting arms in the retracted position. There are only a few degrees of cam rotation between making switch 1 and switch 2 which is not enough to retract the arms. Switch 2 is used in conjunction with a fourth switch located between the visors & driven by the toungue on the front of the sunroof to extend the lifting arms automatically if you reinstall the roof and forget to extend them manually and try to drive off (I think this may happen when you move the ignition switch to poistion 2, roof in, arms retracted). A safety feature.
From what I can tell, it's up to the driver to stop the motor when moving the lifting arms to the fully retracted position. Since you can only do this with the ignition switch in position 1, it's easy to hear the clutch slipping & let off. This is why the slip clutch adjustment is critical and why a misadjusted clutch will continue to strip gears. Someone correct me if this is not right.
Mark, the procedure I referenced above will tell you specifically how to set the lifting arms, if that was your original question.
From what I can tell, it's up to the driver to stop the motor when moving the lifting arms to the fully retracted position. Since you can only do this with the ignition switch in position 1, it's easy to hear the clutch slipping & let off. This is why the slip clutch adjustment is critical and why a misadjusted clutch will continue to strip gears. Someone correct me if this is not right.
Mark, the procedure I referenced above will tell you specifically how to set the lifting arms, if that was your original question.
03-27-2003, 01:12 PM
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Hmm... Thanks for the advice.
I am unclear on how to adjust the white cam. Mine is no where near the micro switches.
The lifting arms are synchronized and I have kludged a fix that allows me to control the roof, but I would like this to function correctly.
My kluge was to use a zip tie to close both switches. This allows me to raise or lower the roof. The downside is that I can unlatch the roof at any time.
I am unclear on how to adjust the white cam. Mine is no where near the micro switches.
The lifting arms are synchronized and I have kludged a fix that allows me to control the roof, but I would like this to function correctly.
My kluge was to use a zip tie to close both switches. This allows me to raise or lower the roof. The downside is that I can unlatch the roof at any time.
03-27-2003, 10:57 PM
#12
You can use a socket on the slip clutch adjusting bolts to rotate the cam. It's the same way you manually operate the roof if you've had an electrical failure. The owners manual has a picture of how to do this.
You're going to open/close the roof when you turn the cam. Since it's so far out, remove the roof & lifting arms before you turn it otherwise you may strip the gears again. You're going to have to start over anyway to set the arms once the cam & switches are adjusted properly.
You're going to open/close the roof when you turn the cam. Since it's so far out, remove the roof & lifting arms before you turn it otherwise you may strip the gears again. You're going to have to start over anyway to set the arms once the cam & switches are adjusted properly.
