Nicolas

Hello

This post is adressed to Danno or Superjet or to any DME guru...
Is it possible to install a 968 DME with harness on a 951 and to use:
- Stock 968 MAF or
- MAP Guru Kit
- Custom Burned chip
- 968 RS single mass flywheel with 60-2 teeth (with 968 Torque tube and gearbox)
- 968 cam sensor
- Manual boost controller or EBC
The advantages I see in doing so:
I have the 968 complete DME system and wiring and MAF.
The 968 DME is sequential on fuel side and not phased like on 951.
Elimination of KLR but still keeping Knock sensor with 968 DME.
Possibility to use High impedance Injectors (16 Ohm)

So If GURU racing guys can offer a MAP kit for my system it will be a go decision on my side

Best regards

Nicolas

Toolmaster

Nicolas -

Let's see here.

First - anything is possible, depending of course only on the depth of your wallet.

The 968 DME has a number of improvements over the stock 951 DME, but it also has a couple bits that make it more difficult. The engine sensor arrangement is different, there's vari-cam to deal with, no real overboost protection, and such.

You'd have to totally re-map the chips, even in addition to the guru map system/whatever, as the chips are mapped for a 3.0 NA car.

For the amount of money you're likely to throw at this - look at the aftermarket EFI systems, like Eectromotive TEC-III. You can get your sequential injectors with that, and dial in what you want for fuel/spark/etc.

The tranny, flywheel, etc, I believe will bolt right on, but you'll want to seriously reconsider the flywheel/clutch. A turbo can tend to beat on the cutch more than an NA car, as turbo's tend to get more HP upgrades. The 951 clutch is pretty good - and there are many options for better units for the turbo cars.

HTH!

Nicolas

Thank's for your point of view
I already have all the 968 parts as my clubsport tried to make a barrel roll quite unsuccessfully.
So the crank/ cam trigger is not an issue as the variocam (you are obliged to have a variocam even if the DME control it...)
Overboost protection is not really mandatory and seems to be "deleted" anyway with 951 custom chips.
Clutch speaking the 968 is not worst than the 951 maybe even better due to the fact that the pressure plate come from the 964 Carrera RS and the disc has no spring damper , flywheel is the single mass 968 RS part so again no trouble that could have come by using stock dual mass FW.
I 've just wanted to know if it is possible to adapt the MAP kit without too much headache and use the GURU chips with my " free of charge" sequential DME.
The Stand Alone EMS will come later...I hope
This solution will give me the chance to "prepare" the car for the future EMS by having advanced crank/cam trigger set-up.

TurboTim

If you use the 968 computer it has to be with the original mass-air sensor, otherwise the computer goes into a default state.

Olli Snellman

iam with Tim on this case.How about 968 DME's Vario Cam systems?? I suppose you will run into lot of difficulties!

Danno

Nicolas, first we have to back up and ask, "What is your goal?" HP target?

You may be jumping in quickly without fully analyzing the implementation costs vs. benefits. Sequential fuel-injection provides absolutely zero performance benefits. It does provide easier fuel-control and emissions benefits at idle and low-load/RPM when using large injectors, beyond that, it's the same as batch fire.

Also I'm not sure what kind of a signal the 968 DME uses to drive the injectors, but a peak & hold signal is much, much more precise in fuel-metering than the simple square-wave signal used to drive saturated, high-imp. injectors. High-imp. injectors is purely a cost-savings effort in implementing an EFI system and should not be used whatsoever in a performance application. That's why we only carry low-impedance peak&hold injectors from 55-lb/hr to 160-lb/hr.

I definitely don't recommend taking the effort in adapting the 968 DME, harness & MAF to work on a 951 because of the costs in monetary and time efforts. After you're done, you'll have identical performance to a 951 with 951 DME & MAF. That's because engine-management is quite simple. The four biggest factors to manage are:

- measure engine speed
- measure/compute air-flow
- open injectors to deliver appropriate fuel for that air-flow
- light off spark at optimum time

That's it! ALL other features of EFI systems are for convenience in diagnostic and tuning, but makes no difference in actual performance. So an optimized 951 DME/KLR combo can provide identical performance to any other optimized EFI system, be it a 968 DME or an aftermarket standalone system.

We are coming close to 300rwhp/330lb-ft torque on our STg.2 MAP systems using the stock 951 DME/KLR combo with a stock K26/6 turbo. There are numerous others out there with 400rwhp cars using the stock 951 DME/KLR combo with upgraded turbos and MAF kits. We should be at that target soon using less boost as well.

So I guess it comes back to, "What is your goal?". And "What do we have to do to get there from your current configuration" should be the next step. For the time and money, the simplest solution for you if you don't have a harness or computers in your car is to install an aftermarket EFI system. We just installed an SDS 3M-4F system in John Anderson's old car for about $1300.

If you do have the car up and running with the 951 harness and 951 DME/KLR, then I recommend sticking with that (the 968 DME/harness will provide no performance enhancement). Then you may wish to look into our GURU-364 kit when it becomes available in about 6-8 weeks.

Nicolas

Thank's for all your opinions and answers

My main goal is to install a 6 speed gearbox in my 951.
To do that I need to use the 968 Torque tube for a perfect fit (even if the 951 have the same bolt pattern the fitting is not very nice).
My 968 clutch is brand new as well as the 968 RS flywheel.
The only problem I see is the 2 crank sensor of the 951 that are not positionned at the same places (not sure about this...have to check) and with the 968 bellhousing I will have to use the entire FW/clutch package.
Also expecting to switch to something better like a DTA ,TEC III or LINK + system I will already have a nice 60-2 teeth crank trigger system (much better and reliable than a trigger disc fixed on the main pulley)
I already have all these parts - so there is no expense on this side
All these reasons push me to re-use the 968 DME on my 951 before switching to an aftermarket ECU.
I really do not see why the 968 goes to Fault mode when used with an AFM Link - the signal sent should be the same type 0-5 V as the stock MAF ????

BTW Danno are you planning to release a plug and play LINK + system ?
It will be great if fitted with DIS !!!