which suspension setup is "the ****" theese days?
02-09-2011, 01:14 AM
#17
Rennlist Junkie Forever
How fast do you want to go?
TonyG
02-09-2011, 04:50 AM
#18
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
my budget is rather flexible, but hopefully not over 4-5000USD
I do drive quite consistantly, usually within +-1.5kmh on straights before brakeing etc, I've driven on track for last 11 years, and also worked some as an instructor, won't claim to be an expert, but like all men, above average?
3 way I feel is a nogo as you have so much to adjust.
my trouble with KW comp was the lack of external reservoir, so I needed to take them off the car to adjust, not a big job, but not something you want to do on track.
widebody setup is 295/335 tires once done, right now its not widebody, so 285-295 rears and whatever I can fit up front, usually 235-255.
the car is setup with race angles on wheels as far as angles go, I have the sheets somewhere to scan, I will go with even more camber than previous setup for 2011 season
some video of me driving the megabusa on track, 2010 season. its kinda like sitting in something with fast forward, to bad the laptimes increase 5-10% with passenger, and brake points go from 50 to 100-130 meters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0QfpN7sVnA
I do drive quite consistantly, usually within +-1.5kmh on straights before brakeing etc, I've driven on track for last 11 years, and also worked some as an instructor, won't claim to be an expert, but like all men, above average?
3 way I feel is a nogo as you have so much to adjust.
my trouble with KW comp was the lack of external reservoir, so I needed to take them off the car to adjust, not a big job, but not something you want to do on track.
widebody setup is 295/335 tires once done, right now its not widebody, so 285-295 rears and whatever I can fit up front, usually 235-255.
the car is setup with race angles on wheels as far as angles go, I have the sheets somewhere to scan, I will go with even more camber than previous setup for 2011 season
some video of me driving the megabusa on track, 2010 season. its kinda like sitting in something with fast forward, to bad the laptimes increase 5-10% with passenger, and brake points go from 50 to 100-130 meters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0QfpN7sVnA
02-09-2011, 06:20 AM
#19
Rennlist Member
I agree with a few people in here. I agree with Tony that perhaps the difference in cost between various brands/models may not gain you a lot, if any time but it also might just gain you enough as Richard suggests. Also in terms of the KWs, I had similar ones to Anders and yes they are a pain to adjust, especially the rears which you have to drop out to get to the rebound. That's why I'm going over to the Moton Clubsports. I hope they have similar ability to absorb bumps and ripples as the KWs which are brilliant in this regard. Something about the high speed release valving. I will also be running similar tyres to you Anders with widebody. Currently use Hoosier R80 slicks with 265 / 285 but will be going 285 or 305 fronts and 305 or 320 rears so hoping the Motons work well with these.
I think the Motons have come down in price a little and are worth investigating Anders.
That track facility looks nice. Plenty of variation available and nice scenery also. Nice to see you driving that crazy little toy with the steering wheel on the 'right' side.
I think the Motons have come down in price a little and are worth investigating Anders.
That track facility looks nice. Plenty of variation available and nice scenery also. Nice to see you driving that crazy little toy with the steering wheel on the 'right' side.
02-09-2011, 08:25 AM
#21
Burning Brakes
As an example of how close cars can be and every advantage counts.
Hallett 2010, E stock
Lap record. 1:26.191- 944 Turbo- No wins
Winner of 3 consecutive races -911 Euro, 1:26.207 lap time.
Result may or may not have been different with different suspension.
Hallett 2010, E stock
Lap record. 1:26.191- 944 Turbo- No wins
Winner of 3 consecutive races -911 Euro, 1:26.207 lap time.
Result may or may not have been different with different suspension.
02-09-2011, 08:46 AM
#22
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
Some general notes and historical info –
First – you have to know how you intend to use the shocks/struts (and I don’t mean how you drive). Its very tempting to get a set of quintuple adjustable 47 position shocks – but seriously, are you going to spend the very significant time required to dial them in? You will need to try many different spring rates and test many, many different settings and keep a very good database on the set up. If you just occasionally change a setting to ‘see what happens’ then all you are doing is buying a set up with even more ‘wrong’ settings than stock. Always keep in mind that if there is only one ‘right’ set up then the ability to have a million different settings just means that 999,999,999 of them are wrong! Race teams devote a lot of time to get the suspension in the right ballpark – 4 post shaker rigs, shock dynos, lots of track sessions – is that what you want to ‘buy’ into with a very expensive highly adjustable system?
Make sure you understand how easy or hard it is to change the settings – and don’t underestimate how important that is! For example some of the older Koni Adjustable rear coil over shocks have to be fully compressed to adjust – this means that you have to remove the spring (and typically remove the shock from the car) to adjust some settings. I had a friend who used a set of these. They get adjusted about once every 5 years. They have never been optimized for a particular track, for particular weather or even for street vs track driving. In the end they are really nonadjustable adjustable shock!
So - to practical experience –
1) The easiest shocks/struts I have used are the Ledas – a single **** that adjusts compression and rebound at a set ratio. The shocks are valved for the customers spring rate at the factory. These are so easy to adjust that all four can be changed in under 2 minutes and with most 944s you don’t even have to jack the car up. This makes tha adjustability easy to use and therefor it gets used often and a the st up can be changed for track, weather, tires of even driving style preference. Are they the ‘best’ shock? No. But they are so easy to use that they actually get used! This is important!
2) One of the previous ‘no budget limit’ GT 944s in PCA used a Penske set up and they bought the whole system – the shocks can be revalved, adjusted, modified, tweaked in so many ways its not even possible to put a label on how ‘adjustable’ they are. Same equipment that was used by very high end professional teams. After using those for a while they sold them and used Bilstein non adjustable shocks….These guys had huge track side support and many specialists – no dummies. I paid attention to what they did!
Those are just some of the many possibilities. There are many good systems out there – make sure you are buying the right tool for the job. If you are a single man team and don’t want to spend a lot of your track time modifying the system and documenting every tweak in a data base then the super multi-adjustable stuff is not a good choice for you.
Ease of use is a very important feature…one that the manufactures don’t talk about very much!
First – you have to know how you intend to use the shocks/struts (and I don’t mean how you drive). Its very tempting to get a set of quintuple adjustable 47 position shocks – but seriously, are you going to spend the very significant time required to dial them in? You will need to try many different spring rates and test many, many different settings and keep a very good database on the set up. If you just occasionally change a setting to ‘see what happens’ then all you are doing is buying a set up with even more ‘wrong’ settings than stock. Always keep in mind that if there is only one ‘right’ set up then the ability to have a million different settings just means that 999,999,999 of them are wrong! Race teams devote a lot of time to get the suspension in the right ballpark – 4 post shaker rigs, shock dynos, lots of track sessions – is that what you want to ‘buy’ into with a very expensive highly adjustable system?
Make sure you understand how easy or hard it is to change the settings – and don’t underestimate how important that is! For example some of the older Koni Adjustable rear coil over shocks have to be fully compressed to adjust – this means that you have to remove the spring (and typically remove the shock from the car) to adjust some settings. I had a friend who used a set of these. They get adjusted about once every 5 years. They have never been optimized for a particular track, for particular weather or even for street vs track driving. In the end they are really nonadjustable adjustable shock!
So - to practical experience –
1) The easiest shocks/struts I have used are the Ledas – a single **** that adjusts compression and rebound at a set ratio. The shocks are valved for the customers spring rate at the factory. These are so easy to adjust that all four can be changed in under 2 minutes and with most 944s you don’t even have to jack the car up. This makes tha adjustability easy to use and therefor it gets used often and a the st up can be changed for track, weather, tires of even driving style preference. Are they the ‘best’ shock? No. But they are so easy to use that they actually get used! This is important!
2) One of the previous ‘no budget limit’ GT 944s in PCA used a Penske set up and they bought the whole system – the shocks can be revalved, adjusted, modified, tweaked in so many ways its not even possible to put a label on how ‘adjustable’ they are. Same equipment that was used by very high end professional teams. After using those for a while they sold them and used Bilstein non adjustable shocks….These guys had huge track side support and many specialists – no dummies. I paid attention to what they did!
Those are just some of the many possibilities. There are many good systems out there – make sure you are buying the right tool for the job. If you are a single man team and don’t want to spend a lot of your track time modifying the system and documenting every tweak in a data base then the super multi-adjustable stuff is not a good choice for you.
Ease of use is a very important feature…one that the manufactures don’t talk about very much!
02-09-2011, 09:29 AM
#23
Rennlist Member
my budget is rather flexible, but hopefully not over 4-5000USD
3 way I feel is a nogo as you have so much to adjust.
my trouble with KW comp was the lack of external reservoir, so I needed to take them off the car to adjust, not a big job, but not something you want to do on track.
3 way I feel is a nogo as you have so much to adjust.
my trouble with KW comp was the lack of external reservoir, so I needed to take them off the car to adjust, not a big job, but not something you want to do on track.
$4-5k limit, 2-way adj, remote reservoir - that will pretty much narrow the search down.
Moton Club sports
Ledas
Anything else meet that criteria?
02-09-2011, 09:39 AM
#24
Nordschleife Master
I cannot say enough about the Bilstein cup setup, its a fantastic setup. Simple, bullet proof, highly effective and very competetive. I would recomend it to anyone. I agree that there are lower cost, bigger benefit mods, but in my case I have very liitle left to gain a performance advantage. Headers is about the only thing I have left.
Seeing as I now have his old setup... to replace my Konis...
02-09-2011, 09:45 AM
#25
Burning Brakes
I am absolutely on board with Chris White,
I have run for many years with Bilstein cup, and 968 MO30 sways. Very simple and virtually no adjustment. The most I have ever played with is spring rates. In recent years, race weekends have been very enjoyable, arive and drive, few mechanicals and no tweaking necessary, just have fun.
Untill now I had avoided the MOTON bandwagon, however I got sucked in by "all the front runners use them" hype. Hopefully I will not be dissapointed. Not only have I gone Motons but I installed fully adjustable sway bars front and back, and different spring rates. I am not looking forward to the first weekend and trying to get it dialed back in.
I have run for many years with Bilstein cup, and 968 MO30 sways. Very simple and virtually no adjustment. The most I have ever played with is spring rates. In recent years, race weekends have been very enjoyable, arive and drive, few mechanicals and no tweaking necessary, just have fun.
Untill now I had avoided the MOTON bandwagon, however I got sucked in by "all the front runners use them" hype. Hopefully I will not be dissapointed. Not only have I gone Motons but I installed fully adjustable sway bars front and back, and different spring rates. I am not looking forward to the first weekend and trying to get it dialed back in.
02-09-2011, 10:07 AM
#26
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
firstly, its great to see so many people replying to the thread! I appreciate all the input and angles.
moton clubsports is around 4200USD retail
motor motorsports is around 7000USD retail
ledas, is .. well no idea, all info just says delivery is dodgy at best
KW motorsport 2 way with uniball camber plate is aprox 3200USD to me after discounts
KW motorsport 3 way with uniball camber plate is aprox 7400USD after discounts
to the 4 way setups etc that chris mentioan, its hopeless, you really need a big big team, and fulltime racedriver to get anything out of it, a guy here rigged a cayman S ruf with 4 way KW motorsport etc, and ended up going slower, no matter how many times he did the setup, which was done by pros.
and yes, Im a "one man team" so I wont do lots of setups, but with my KW motorsport 2 way, I did 6 setups, before the car started to handle like I wanted, also had to set my 968 sway bars at the softest level, had some trouble with rear end going out, and oversteer, quite fun, but not ideal. ideally you could do minor adjustments on the same day, to get the car the way you liked, and then never touch it again. Ideally I want a setup, done by someone who actually races their 944 turbo, so I can just replicate it, and do very minor adjustments to it, if needed.
I've had 1 way systems on previous cars, that were used for regular road mostly, but also track, really great if you need to adjust something quickly as it keeps the aspect ratio with only 1 ****, but feel it might give to little options on track, but.. can I really use a 2way..
in this video I was in the setup process, you can see the *** of the car just slide out at aprox 4 minutes out, 968 sway bar on the middle setting, this is was on 40c day with 295 cup tires, so plenty of grip, I softend the setup a lot after this, had to get the suspension to work more, not just be stiff everywhere.
camera car following me is a 600+hp 996 GT2 on cup tires as well, I had 249RWHP... saved by traffic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbzg7KDpTnU
moton clubsports is around 4200USD retail
motor motorsports is around 7000USD retail
ledas, is .. well no idea, all info just says delivery is dodgy at best
KW motorsport 2 way with uniball camber plate is aprox 3200USD to me after discounts
KW motorsport 3 way with uniball camber plate is aprox 7400USD after discounts
to the 4 way setups etc that chris mentioan, its hopeless, you really need a big big team, and fulltime racedriver to get anything out of it, a guy here rigged a cayman S ruf with 4 way KW motorsport etc, and ended up going slower, no matter how many times he did the setup, which was done by pros.
and yes, Im a "one man team" so I wont do lots of setups, but with my KW motorsport 2 way, I did 6 setups, before the car started to handle like I wanted, also had to set my 968 sway bars at the softest level, had some trouble with rear end going out, and oversteer, quite fun, but not ideal. ideally you could do minor adjustments on the same day, to get the car the way you liked, and then never touch it again. Ideally I want a setup, done by someone who actually races their 944 turbo, so I can just replicate it, and do very minor adjustments to it, if needed.
I've had 1 way systems on previous cars, that were used for regular road mostly, but also track, really great if you need to adjust something quickly as it keeps the aspect ratio with only 1 ****, but feel it might give to little options on track, but.. can I really use a 2way..
in this video I was in the setup process, you can see the *** of the car just slide out at aprox 4 minutes out, 968 sway bar on the middle setting, this is was on 40c day with 295 cup tires, so plenty of grip, I softend the setup a lot after this, had to get the suspension to work more, not just be stiff everywhere.
camera car following me is a 600+hp 996 GT2 on cup tires as well, I had 249RWHP... saved by traffic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbzg7KDpTnU
02-09-2011, 10:55 AM
#27
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
Most folks just go that route because it sounds ‘racy’. Unless you are really racing in long sprint races or endures the benefit of the remote reservoir is pretty minimal.
02-09-2011, 11:04 AM
#28
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
my only reason for wanting external reservoir, is for the easier to reach adjustments, on 2 way adjustable shocks, won't run any that long races, generating the ammount of heat needed to justify the technology.
on a 1 way shock, where the bump/rebound is adjusted by a single **** in a set ratio, its not needed
on a 1 way shock, where the bump/rebound is adjusted by a single **** in a set ratio, its not needed
02-09-2011, 11:21 AM
#29
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
02-09-2011, 11:37 AM
#30
Rennlist Member
and yes, Im a "one man team" so I wont do lots of setups, but with my KW motorsport 2 way, I did 6 setups, before the car started to handle like I wanted, also had to set my 968 sway bars at the softest level, had some trouble with rear end going out, and oversteer, quite fun, but not ideal. ideally you could do minor adjustments on the same day, to get the car the way you liked, and then never touch it again. Ideally I want a setup, done by someone who actually races their 944 turbo, so I can just replicate it, and do very minor adjustments to it, if needed.