Fixed another one
01-28-2011, 11:47 AM
#17
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Indianapolis,IN
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Love the curves, Chris/Mike. Anyone with multiple, mysterious HG failures and finds this by "search" may want to invest in standalone. I've never seriously planned any big upgrades, but I'll be ready to jump on standalone at the first sign of wiring problems. That, and its just cool....
01-28-2011, 01:21 PM
#19
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Chris, this is such good news, for everyone concerned, but especially the owner. I know that everyone will have their 2 cents to put into this thread. Did you check this, did you check that? I will lay out a more detailed history of this car, since I worked on it personally for over 2 years. I don’t have 100% the cars history, but I have quite a bit of knowledge of it. I will try and keep this as short as I can but give the pertinent details.
This car has been blowing gaskets since it was new! The factory replaced the first gasket under warranty, in Stuttgart Germany (#1). Soon after the second gasket blew, this time the dealer in Stuttgart replace the gasket and the cylinder head. (#2) It ran OK for some length of time, but eventually blew again. (#3) At time point the owner was living in Houston area and took the car to a local shop. Not sure on the details, but the gasket was replaced there at least twice, another head installed and Raceware studs installed too. (#4, #5, #6 or more)
The next time it blew, the owner sent the car to a Dealer in Dallas and they removed the head and sent it to us to rebuild and O-ring. In a couple thousand miles, the gasket blew again (#7). That time when the head was pulled, there was a wide gouge running down the #4 cylinder, too deep to hone, block needed to be replaced. Looked like a broken ring, but upon disassembly, the rings were fine.
Owner decided to build the engine up into a 2.8L. Engine was pulled and sent to Lindsey Racing
for engine upgrades and assembly. Engine assembly completed, new block, same head. A long list of upgrades were performed on the engine. New cam, solid lifters, crank, rods pistons, block, head, clutch, flywheel (new flywheel ruled out reference sensor placement) (New block also ruled out a problem with reference sensor placement) Both the injector harness and the crank reference sensor harness were replaced to rule out a problem there.
Dealer in Dallas installed completed motor, turbo, MAF and exhaust upgrades and tuned to 8 pounds of boost and gave to customer to put on break in miles. 3500 miles on new motor, running 8 pounds of boost and no issues. Car was returned to Dallas for further tuning and boost to be set to 15.5 lbs and to run 93 Oct pump gas. Dealer tuned the engine and on the drive back from the tuning run, the gasket blew again. (#8).
At that point the dealer in Dallas questioned whether there was a problem with the engine itself, so the car was sent to LR to take over the project. We removed the head to find the typical failure in #4. This time we welded the o-ring groove in the head, and went to a Cometic head gasket. We sent the computers to the shop in Florida for inspection, came back with no problems found there.
Engine was tuned at 15 pounds and given back to customer. It was driven for about 1000 miles and blew again. (#9) The car was towed back to LR. Upon disassembly and inspection, the #4 cylinder was blown, but more was visible on the Cometic gasket. Pictures and finally the gasket itself were sent to Cometic for their appraisal of the situation. Extreme detonation was their response.
At that point I began searching for a knock detection device that could be installed permanently in the car. A very nice product was found in England, (which we now carry) and one was bought and installed in the vehicle. I turned the boost down to 8 pounds to do the calibration of the meter. No detonation was found at that level. Turned the boost up and quickly determined that at 10 pounds there was no detonation, but at 11 pounds running 93 octane fuel, the engine was hitting the high limit on the knock meter. So at less than stock boost level, the engine was detonating badly!
As part of our testing, we had Russell tweak chips and tried at least 4 times pulling timing back, up to 20 degrees of timing out of chips, still detonated. It made slight difference, but not the answer. We ohmed the factory harness. We tested the line from the manifold to the KLR for leaks. We swapped computers from Dave’s personal car which has never had a head gasket failure, even at 23 pounds on the dyno, still detonated. These are just the highlights of what was done to try and diagnose this vehicle.
After many months and hundreds of man hours searching for answers, we discussed the options left with the customer at length and recommended the only two options left to do. #1 Replace the engine wiring harness, or #2, upgrade to a stand alone engine management system. The customer picked up the vehicle and drove it home with the boost level set at 10 pounds. He searched and found a very low mileage harness from an 89 model car, but in the end made the decision to go the engine management route. We gave him a couple names, he contacted Chris White and made the arrangements to have the car taken to him. Clearly that was the right way to proceed, Chris was able to finally correct the problem that has plagued this vehicle from DAY ONE!
As frustrating as it was to deal with this car and what turned out to be a factory problem in the engine harness, we gained a lot of knowledge and tried combinations of things that were not done before. It was definitely a learning experience!
Mike Lindsey
This car has been blowing gaskets since it was new! The factory replaced the first gasket under warranty, in Stuttgart Germany (#1). Soon after the second gasket blew, this time the dealer in Stuttgart replace the gasket and the cylinder head. (#2) It ran OK for some length of time, but eventually blew again. (#3) At time point the owner was living in Houston area and took the car to a local shop. Not sure on the details, but the gasket was replaced there at least twice, another head installed and Raceware studs installed too. (#4, #5, #6 or more)
The next time it blew, the owner sent the car to a Dealer in Dallas and they removed the head and sent it to us to rebuild and O-ring. In a couple thousand miles, the gasket blew again (#7). That time when the head was pulled, there was a wide gouge running down the #4 cylinder, too deep to hone, block needed to be replaced. Looked like a broken ring, but upon disassembly, the rings were fine.
Owner decided to build the engine up into a 2.8L. Engine was pulled and sent to Lindsey Racing
for engine upgrades and assembly. Engine assembly completed, new block, same head. A long list of upgrades were performed on the engine. New cam, solid lifters, crank, rods pistons, block, head, clutch, flywheel (new flywheel ruled out reference sensor placement) (New block also ruled out a problem with reference sensor placement) Both the injector harness and the crank reference sensor harness were replaced to rule out a problem there.
Dealer in Dallas installed completed motor, turbo, MAF and exhaust upgrades and tuned to 8 pounds of boost and gave to customer to put on break in miles. 3500 miles on new motor, running 8 pounds of boost and no issues. Car was returned to Dallas for further tuning and boost to be set to 15.5 lbs and to run 93 Oct pump gas. Dealer tuned the engine and on the drive back from the tuning run, the gasket blew again. (#8).
At that point the dealer in Dallas questioned whether there was a problem with the engine itself, so the car was sent to LR to take over the project. We removed the head to find the typical failure in #4. This time we welded the o-ring groove in the head, and went to a Cometic head gasket. We sent the computers to the shop in Florida for inspection, came back with no problems found there.
Engine was tuned at 15 pounds and given back to customer. It was driven for about 1000 miles and blew again. (#9) The car was towed back to LR. Upon disassembly and inspection, the #4 cylinder was blown, but more was visible on the Cometic gasket. Pictures and finally the gasket itself were sent to Cometic for their appraisal of the situation. Extreme detonation was their response.
At that point I began searching for a knock detection device that could be installed permanently in the car. A very nice product was found in England, (which we now carry) and one was bought and installed in the vehicle. I turned the boost down to 8 pounds to do the calibration of the meter. No detonation was found at that level. Turned the boost up and quickly determined that at 10 pounds there was no detonation, but at 11 pounds running 93 octane fuel, the engine was hitting the high limit on the knock meter. So at less than stock boost level, the engine was detonating badly!
As part of our testing, we had Russell tweak chips and tried at least 4 times pulling timing back, up to 20 degrees of timing out of chips, still detonated. It made slight difference, but not the answer. We ohmed the factory harness. We tested the line from the manifold to the KLR for leaks. We swapped computers from Dave’s personal car which has never had a head gasket failure, even at 23 pounds on the dyno, still detonated. These are just the highlights of what was done to try and diagnose this vehicle.
After many months and hundreds of man hours searching for answers, we discussed the options left with the customer at length and recommended the only two options left to do. #1 Replace the engine wiring harness, or #2, upgrade to a stand alone engine management system. The customer picked up the vehicle and drove it home with the boost level set at 10 pounds. He searched and found a very low mileage harness from an 89 model car, but in the end made the decision to go the engine management route. We gave him a couple names, he contacted Chris White and made the arrangements to have the car taken to him. Clearly that was the right way to proceed, Chris was able to finally correct the problem that has plagued this vehicle from DAY ONE!
As frustrating as it was to deal with this car and what turned out to be a factory problem in the engine harness, we gained a lot of knowledge and tried combinations of things that were not done before. It was definitely a learning experience!
Mike Lindsey
__________________
Mike or Dave Lindsey
www.lindseyracing.com
U.S. 1-877-943-3565
Other 1-405-947-0137
Mike or Dave Lindsey
www.lindseyracing.com
U.S. 1-877-943-3565
Other 1-405-947-0137
to the owner. Now that's dedication. I wonder what his attachment to the car is? I would have given up around headgasket #3.
01-28-2011, 02:35 PM
#22
Three Wheelin'
What awful luck, but it seems like the owner is going to be making up for some lost flogging time in the most proper way possible. I shudder to think how much money that owner has tied up in the car; I'll just keep that in mind every time I think I have it bad lol.
01-28-2011, 03:19 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
WoW!! Talk about being desperately in love with his car. Great final result and wish the owner a remaining untroubled existence with this car.
Good pickup on the 2.8 Duke.
Good pickup on the 2.8 Duke.
01-28-2011, 03:29 PM
#27
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