Just how stiff can we go...???
09-19-2010, 09:14 PM
#31
Three Wheelin'
However 996/Boxter looks like it might be suitable, even though not so good on RC height. Advantage with the Boxter is that front and rear uprights are identical, radial mount brakes, aluminium upright, still uses cheap (914) bearings. Disadvantage is lack of camber adjustment at the shock mount, therefore track/camber/KPI are inextricably linked. I haven't measured a Boxter to see if the strut top spacing is similar to 944. On my list of things to do. Secondhand should be readily available = affordable. EVO parts are gonna get pricey soon.
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...-uprights.html
Cheers,
Mike
09-19-2010, 10:37 PM
#32
Drifting
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yeh your car is clearly fast and good I wonder what makes the most difference better shocks or better geometry. despite the guidance of my guru I'm not convinced either way ..
I can sit at the pub all day bragging that my rear end has 1mm toe gain and .3 degree camber gain but when the flag drops the bull**** shops
.I'd realy like to to put your wheel and tire set on my car and let you loose in it on your track to see how it compares ..
I can sit at the pub all day bragging that my rear end has 1mm toe gain and .3 degree camber gain but when the flag drops the bull**** shops
.I'd realy like to to put your wheel and tire set on my car and let you loose in it on your track to see how it compares ..
09-19-2010, 11:09 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Mikey, these EVO parts are for the front, yes? At work so don't have time to check thoroughly. I just noticed the reference to bump steer in that other thread.
Adam, you're welcome to come up and try them whenever you want.
Adam, you're welcome to come up and try them whenever you want.
09-20-2010, 01:08 AM
#35
Drifting
Patrick,
I think Chris had a point in terms of power sooner, but I've had a 2.5 with a large turbo, and I was on the throttle earlier than the car responded coming out of a corner. Know, I'm just a guy having fun, but I know the feeling of waiting for tq in these cars. Better driving is paramount, but we do the best we can with what we've got.
Watching your video, and seeing the difference between the CUP 911 as compared to you, I think larger tires, 3.0 motor with immediate tq may help your car be very competitive. At least nibbling on it's bumper in the corners, and laying back on long stretches unless you can pass with a few car lengths. I've spent a few track days beating folks on the straights with them catching me in tight corners, as my old 2.5 just couldn't match them in immediate tq early out of the bends.
At least you are driving. My car is still in Salt Lake getting things buttoned up. The new turbo, intercooler, and intake should allow my car to not be a laggy bitch coming out of corners. I'm not the best driver, but a big turbo on a little motor creates the look of not being on the gas when you should be powering out of corners.
I'll send you some updates on my car in a PM. You did well as compared to the new CUP cars. Bigger tires and a few hundred more tq by 3000rpm would keep you at it's bumper in most corners, and able to pass on a fast straight.
I've got a street legal cage in my car, and it does help with body strength.
Looking forward to sharing videos of my updated car sharing like you do with this community.
George
I think Chris had a point in terms of power sooner, but I've had a 2.5 with a large turbo, and I was on the throttle earlier than the car responded coming out of a corner. Know, I'm just a guy having fun, but I know the feeling of waiting for tq in these cars. Better driving is paramount, but we do the best we can with what we've got.
Watching your video, and seeing the difference between the CUP 911 as compared to you, I think larger tires, 3.0 motor with immediate tq may help your car be very competitive. At least nibbling on it's bumper in the corners, and laying back on long stretches unless you can pass with a few car lengths. I've spent a few track days beating folks on the straights with them catching me in tight corners, as my old 2.5 just couldn't match them in immediate tq early out of the bends.
At least you are driving. My car is still in Salt Lake getting things buttoned up. The new turbo, intercooler, and intake should allow my car to not be a laggy bitch coming out of corners. I'm not the best driver, but a big turbo on a little motor creates the look of not being on the gas when you should be powering out of corners.
I'll send you some updates on my car in a PM. You did well as compared to the new CUP cars. Bigger tires and a few hundred more tq by 3000rpm would keep you at it's bumper in most corners, and able to pass on a fast straight.
I've got a street legal cage in my car, and it does help with body strength.
Looking forward to sharing videos of my updated car sharing like you do with this community.
George
09-20-2010, 01:40 AM
#36
Three Wheelin'
Yes. With 911's the problem has always been getting the front to work properly. Same could be said for our cars, I guess. YMMV.
09-20-2010, 01:41 AM
#37
Three Wheelin'
Patrick,
...but I know the feeling of waiting for tq in these cars...
...should allow my car to not be a laggy bitch coming out of corners. I'm not the best driver, but a big turbo on a little motor creates the look of not being on the gas when you should be powering out of corners...
George
...but I know the feeling of waiting for tq in these cars...
...should allow my car to not be a laggy bitch coming out of corners. I'm not the best driver, but a big turbo on a little motor creates the look of not being on the gas when you should be powering out of corners...
George
Anyways, isn't this about where TonyG chimes in???
09-20-2010, 02:02 AM
#38
Drifting
OT, but know I beat him, Tim Richards, Derrick Huntley and his partner on a dyno day with luggage in my hatch on my way to a business meeting in San Diego about a decade ago in a past 951. Tony said it was his "new glass packs" that kept his numbers below mine.
Tony has a Vette motor in a 951, and I'll still spank him.....LOL
Just having some fun. Tony's V8 creation is a bad *** car. It's a NA Chevy/Porsche, and I'll still spank him at the dyno. Tony is a very good driver, and he knows I respect him and his efforts. I'm looking forward to sharing some track time with him soon.
George
09-20-2010, 05:52 AM
#40
Three Wheelin'
Tony Garcia, great guy, fun loving, and good software engineer....sorry Tony...Great Software Engineer....
OT, but know I beat him, Tim Richards, Derrick Huntley and his partner on a dyno day with luggage in my hatch on my way to a business meeting in San Diego about a decade ago in a past 951. Tony said it was his "new glass packs" that kept his numbers below mine.
Tony has a Vette motor in a 951, and I'll still spank him.....LOL
Just having some fun. Tony's V8 creation is a bad *** car. It's a NA Chevy/Porsche, and I'll still spank him at the dyno. Tony is a very good driver, and he knows I respect him and his efforts. I'm looking forward to sharing some track time with him soon.
George
OT, but know I beat him, Tim Richards, Derrick Huntley and his partner on a dyno day with luggage in my hatch on my way to a business meeting in San Diego about a decade ago in a past 951. Tony said it was his "new glass packs" that kept his numbers below mine.
Tony has a Vette motor in a 951, and I'll still spank him.....LOL
Just having some fun. Tony's V8 creation is a bad *** car. It's a NA Chevy/Porsche, and I'll still spank him at the dyno. Tony is a very good driver, and he knows I respect him and his efforts. I'm looking forward to sharing some track time with him soon.
George
Cheers,
Mike
09-20-2010, 09:09 AM
#41
Drifting
Patrick,
Here are a couple random thoughts after understanding your goals and watching the video.
Tires: The jump from a Nitto to a grippy tire like a Hoosier is worth ~2 secs a lap. Slicks are at least a 1 sec jump from Hoos. If you want to corner like a Cup car, you've gotta have at least the same amount of tire and at least as sticky.
Balance: by design, our cars don't like to turn. Compare that to a 911 which can change direction very quickly and will pull a gap in tight, twisty sections. The 911 engine's low CG also helps tremendously in this regard. Compare your car's cornering speed against a Cup on medium & fast corners, not slow ones where the weight dist of a 911 wins out.
For a lightened car, the springs you have are already fairly stiff. You could go stiffer but I doubt you'd see much improvement.
Transmission: 6 well-spaced gears of Cup car will always trump the 5 widely spaced gears in our boxes
Lastly, some thoughts on driving style:
In several corners, your entry is too shallow, resulting in an early apex and delay of getting back on the gas. To drive our cars (or any race car) quickly, you have to be hard on the throttle as much as possible. If your right foot isn't planted before the apex and engine building boost as you track out (no lifting), you should adjust your line until it does. This usually means trail braking into a corner for a late apex then immediate WOT just before the apex.
You look very controlled out there. While we're not sure how aggressively the Cup driver was working the car, you can pick up some time by being more aggressive, especially on corner exit. Set your car up for some oversteer (it's less controllable but faster) so that you're working the wheel after the apex.
Here are a couple random thoughts after understanding your goals and watching the video.
Tires: The jump from a Nitto to a grippy tire like a Hoosier is worth ~2 secs a lap. Slicks are at least a 1 sec jump from Hoos. If you want to corner like a Cup car, you've gotta have at least the same amount of tire and at least as sticky.
Balance: by design, our cars don't like to turn. Compare that to a 911 which can change direction very quickly and will pull a gap in tight, twisty sections. The 911 engine's low CG also helps tremendously in this regard. Compare your car's cornering speed against a Cup on medium & fast corners, not slow ones where the weight dist of a 911 wins out.
For a lightened car, the springs you have are already fairly stiff. You could go stiffer but I doubt you'd see much improvement.
Transmission: 6 well-spaced gears of Cup car will always trump the 5 widely spaced gears in our boxes
Lastly, some thoughts on driving style:
In several corners, your entry is too shallow, resulting in an early apex and delay of getting back on the gas. To drive our cars (or any race car) quickly, you have to be hard on the throttle as much as possible. If your right foot isn't planted before the apex and engine building boost as you track out (no lifting), you should adjust your line until it does. This usually means trail braking into a corner for a late apex then immediate WOT just before the apex.
You look very controlled out there. While we're not sure how aggressively the Cup driver was working the car, you can pick up some time by being more aggressive, especially on corner exit. Set your car up for some oversteer (it's less controllable but faster) so that you're working the wheel after the apex.
09-20-2010, 06:12 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Jerome,
I had some Hoosiers on earlier in the day. Not really sure how good they were as they had been left for about a year since I last used them. They actually felt a bit twitchier than the Nittos. I did manage about a second faster on them, but sure moving to a proper slick will give a bigger step up again.
My gears are shorter via an S2 ring and pinion however the Cup Car's sequential 6 speed coupled with their high compression n/a motor kills us all over the place and on downshifts.
From what you and Chris have said re getting on the throttle sooner has made me think about what you guys are seeing. I am far from being beyond critique and always know I can improve, but you guys clearly can't see how many off camber corners there are on this track. Even some that look level are optical illusions. This is a momentum circuit and there are many corners where you just have to wait otherwise you get on the outside of the 'slot' and either push understeer or snap oversteer. As far as setting a car up to oversteer and just hang the tail out, well this is not going to be the way to go on this track for sure. There are a few corners where there are a number of different lines too. Turn 2 being a prime example. As for the early apexes I understand what you're saying. I was actually just copying some lines shown to me by a pro who drove my car recently. He apexed early on many corners and still managed to hold the line and accelerate out. I drove better later in the day but I just wanted to show the Cup Car in the clip as an example.
I had some Hoosiers on earlier in the day. Not really sure how good they were as they had been left for about a year since I last used them. They actually felt a bit twitchier than the Nittos. I did manage about a second faster on them, but sure moving to a proper slick will give a bigger step up again.
My gears are shorter via an S2 ring and pinion however the Cup Car's sequential 6 speed coupled with their high compression n/a motor kills us all over the place and on downshifts.
From what you and Chris have said re getting on the throttle sooner has made me think about what you guys are seeing. I am far from being beyond critique and always know I can improve, but you guys clearly can't see how many off camber corners there are on this track. Even some that look level are optical illusions. This is a momentum circuit and there are many corners where you just have to wait otherwise you get on the outside of the 'slot' and either push understeer or snap oversteer. As far as setting a car up to oversteer and just hang the tail out, well this is not going to be the way to go on this track for sure. There are a few corners where there are a number of different lines too. Turn 2 being a prime example. As for the early apexes I understand what you're saying. I was actually just copying some lines shown to me by a pro who drove my car recently. He apexed early on many corners and still managed to hold the line and accelerate out. I drove better later in the day but I just wanted to show the Cup Car in the clip as an example.
09-20-2010, 08:14 PM
#43
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Jerome,
I had some Hoosiers on earlier in the day. Not really sure how good they were as they had been left for about a year since I last used them. They actually felt a bit twitchier than the Nittos. I did manage about a second faster on them, but sure moving to a proper slick will give a bigger step up again.
My gears are shorter via an S2 ring and pinion however the Cup Car's sequential 6 speed coupled with their high compression n/a motor kills us all over the place and on downshifts.
From what you and Chris have said re getting on the throttle sooner has made me think about what you guys are seeing. I am far from being beyond critique and always know I can improve, but you guys clearly can't see how many off camber corners there are on this track. Even some that look level are optical illusions. This is a momentum circuit and there are many corners where you just have to wait otherwise you get on the outside of the 'slot' and either push understeer or snap oversteer. As far as setting a car up to oversteer and just hang the tail out, well this is not going to be the way to go on this track for sure. There are a few corners where there are a number of different lines too. Turn 2 being a prime example. As for the early apexes I understand what you're saying. I was actually just copying some lines shown to me by a pro who drove my car recently. He apexed early on many corners and still managed to hold the line and accelerate out. I drove better later in the day but I just wanted to show the Cup Car in the clip as an example.
I had some Hoosiers on earlier in the day. Not really sure how good they were as they had been left for about a year since I last used them. They actually felt a bit twitchier than the Nittos. I did manage about a second faster on them, but sure moving to a proper slick will give a bigger step up again.
My gears are shorter via an S2 ring and pinion however the Cup Car's sequential 6 speed coupled with their high compression n/a motor kills us all over the place and on downshifts.
From what you and Chris have said re getting on the throttle sooner has made me think about what you guys are seeing. I am far from being beyond critique and always know I can improve, but you guys clearly can't see how many off camber corners there are on this track. Even some that look level are optical illusions. This is a momentum circuit and there are many corners where you just have to wait otherwise you get on the outside of the 'slot' and either push understeer or snap oversteer. As far as setting a car up to oversteer and just hang the tail out, well this is not going to be the way to go on this track for sure. There are a few corners where there are a number of different lines too. Turn 2 being a prime example. As for the early apexes I understand what you're saying. I was actually just copying some lines shown to me by a pro who drove my car recently. He apexed early on many corners and still managed to hold the line and accelerate out. I drove better later in the day but I just wanted to show the Cup Car in the clip as an example.
The other thing is that I (we) didn’t say ‘Full Throttle’ – you need to get on the throttle earlier and use a ‘maintenance’ throttle to rotate the car and keep it pointed where it does the most good.
Once you get used to good trail braking the next step is to do the same thing with the throttle - start giving it a little throttle and then slowly open it up as traction permits. I can hear your throttle – its closed up to a point and then opened quickly.
A ‘maintenance throttle’ will also allow for much better spool up.
Once that starts working well you need to add left foot braking at the same time as the maintenance throttle, when done right you can really get the car to point the direction you want to go.
Don’t get me wrong – you are doing pretty good – the next step requires forgetting the ‘normal’ way of driving and learning some new tricks. 95% of the advanced folks never get to the next step, but I think you might get there with some practice.
09-21-2010, 01:06 AM
#44
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I'll have to find a clip that you can really hear the turbo spooling louder. It shows that we are rarely 'coasting'. You can hear the turbo spooling through the turns and this would be the maintenance throttle being applied. LFB at T2, T5, T12. All the rest is just heel / toeing. The pro who drove my car said that in certain corners you just have to allow the nose to get into the turn before applying harder throttle. In other words, you have to wait. As you may have seen with him driving, he drives in an edgier fashion to me. I think by driving with a 'smoother' action I appear not to be pushing that hard. You can also see that the tyres were slipping enough for me to have to do rapid corrections so we are finding some limits of the adhesion. Trying to late apex on many corners at this track doesn't work either. Don't think I haven't tried. It's strange, but it just doesn't let you get back to the turn. You have to slow down too much and wash off too much speed just to get back to the corner.
Again, don't take this as me saying I can't improve. I love the feeling that each and every time out I can beat the previous best times...and pretty much this year I am doing this. I just want to get across that this can be a more difficult track to go really fast than shows on film.
So I think that in part my question has sort of been answered. I have seen film of other guys running stiffer springs than me and they still keep the car on the track. After preparing the car with some strengthening I will try to move up a little more in spring rate just to satisfy my own curiosity if nothing else.
Again, don't take this as me saying I can't improve. I love the feeling that each and every time out I can beat the previous best times...and pretty much this year I am doing this. I just want to get across that this can be a more difficult track to go really fast than shows on film.
So I think that in part my question has sort of been answered. I have seen film of other guys running stiffer springs than me and they still keep the car on the track. After preparing the car with some strengthening I will try to move up a little more in spring rate just to satisfy my own curiosity if nothing else.
Last edited by 333pg333; 09-21-2010 at 01:23 AM.
09-21-2010, 02:31 AM
#45
Three Wheelin'