The LS1 swap has begun
 

More progress made. Motor has been yanked out of the donor car and is on an engine stand getting cleaned up. A mild cam will get installed. All aluminum V8 goodness!

My car is getting stripped, motor should be coming out of it today.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b233/docwyte/LS1.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b233/docwyte/LS12.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b233/docwyte/LS11.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...51stripped.jpg

What was the donor car?

Looks good! Keep the pictures of the swap coming!

Who's doing the swap?

2002 Camaro SS. So the motor is an LS1 with the LS6 intake manifold and throttle body.

Texas Performance Concepts is doing the swap, they've done several before and manufacture some of the needed swap parts. Figured I didn't want to reinvent the wheel and pay another shops education in the process.

oh nice! guess you are going to work out all those gremlins your car had after all!

Yep, they're getting exorcised.

How much is it for the motor and full install for this job?

Prices on the motor vary wildly depending on mileage, year, etc. Best thing to do is contact them directly...

If you can, it would be really interesting for someone to put a $$ figure on this, if one doesn't mind sharing.

With 2.5 machining costing around $800, pistons vary but avg $1500, bearings/bolts/seals/ etc about another $800 - 1100 depending on what you do. If you have to pay for shop labor, that's probably an average of 40hrs total? (eng out 8, tear down 6, build 12, install 14) So, calculator says $7000 +/-, based on $90/hr. If you remove, tear down, build and install, time permitting, then it's about $3100.

I don't care if a Porsche has whatever engine, I'm just truly curious at the cost difference, with the specialized parts. Good luck with it, post some pics when you can.

+1
I would like to know myself.

So you think you can get a rebuilt 2.5l for $3400? Chris White charges quite a bit more than that. A built 2.7 is $6100 and that's reusing the stock rods, figure $7100 with rods. Add $1000 to that for a 3.0. Then you ought to freshen the head, $500, then gaskets and seals $800, then labor to install which is at least $100 an hour. I got figures of well in excess of $12,000 to keep the stock motor in the car.

LS1 motor prices are all over the map, but I got my SS motor with everything needed (all accessories, wiring harness, ecu, etc, etc) with 64k miles on it for $2500. The SS motor comes with the LS6 intake manifolds and throttle body too.

The conversion parts are readily available, you need a crossmember, bellhousing, headers, air filter and intake piping, clutch (spec makes the clutch with the porsche spline pattern) and brakes (either stock unboosted, hydro boosted, or dual tilton/wilwoods.

Depending on what options you choose for brakes, headers, bell housing etc, the price goes up or down some. Same thing with the shop you deal with. Their labor rate could be very high, or very low. If they've never done one of these swaps before, be prepared to pay for their education in the process.

Doc,

Not that it matters now but,

You can get a fully rebuilt 2.5L Turbo long block for $2450~$2,800.....about what you paid for the used LS motor.

Or since you have a fairly new cylinder head you could get a 2.5L Turbo Short block for $1680~$1990.

Price is dependent on which engine builder one would choose.


I too looked at doing the swap last fall when I had all my issues. The only thing that held me back was the $12,000~$16,000 install price (including conversion parts). That pushed the total cost to $19,700 for what I wanted.

For me, I just couldn't justify that much. Hell, I could get a Gen I Z06 for less than that. Instead I finally went through mine piece by piece, learning a lot along the way and realizing just how incompotent some the 'Certified' Porsche mechanics were who I employed to work on my car.

Now I can effectively/efficiently fix anything on it, which is good feeling. Although one I wish to have done on my own terms and not because I was cleaning up another mehanics mess :)


I wish you the best of luck with this, and hope it is everything you want and deserve. i know this has been trying for you.

Let us the final cost if you don't mind, that would be an important tool to have :thumbup:

But you have to remember, I do all my own labor - track car rebuild, machining - pistons - bearings teflon coated, crank work(upgrade), Woosner rods(upgrade), and we had the head redone - ARP head studs - the long block cost was just under $4200 for all it, but we removed it, tore it down, delivered the spare block to the shop, LR did the crank and head, we assembled and installed. As I mentioned, your own labor or someones labor. It took us 8 months to get it all done but we had the time and were not in a hurry.

But you could use factory head studs, $12 each, stock rods after having them crack checked - Rhobs long block cost us $2850 - machine work was $400, pistons were a true find of Mahle 100.5 for $500 new in the box, head was $550 at LR, new stock head studs, copper nuts, water pump and bolts, gaskets.

Just curious that's all.

You'll love the LS1. In fact, the first time you drive the car you'll wish you had done the conversion long long ago....

The deal is that it's not an apples-to-apples comparison with respect to cost. The LSx engine makes a LOT more power and has a substantially wider area "under the curve" than any turbo 4 engine. Thus the car, even at the same peak HP level, becomes much faster. (yes... I know you can get a lot of power out of a 951 engine... but you can get a LOT more power out of a LSx engine. And it's more reliable in the process at any given power level...)

So yeah the LSx engine is less expensive than the 951 engine... but the deal is that it's more powerful (apples to apples... )l, has a wider powerband, and is far more reliable.

And honestly... it's awesome to drive.

Good luck luck with your conversion.

TonyG


PS> you don't need a different cross member for the conversion.
PS2> Use the Renegade Hybrids 2 piece bell housing
PS3> make sure you get the Turn 1 powersteering pump

I think the biggest price variation will come from where and how much you pay for your LS1/x engine, that's what really going to determine how much you are going to spend + if you try to do the swap yourself or have a shop do it

LS1/x engines are all over the place, depending on what you want to go with it might cost you quiet a bit more

What will be the final weight difference? Will it upset the balance of the car?

Squire's Autowerke is building the highest quality turn-key, LSx conversions. If you call him, he'll tell you exactly.

Here's one of his builds:

https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ferrerid=16485

Yeah, that's what I would be wondering about

IIRC, the weight difference is neglible....a hundred pounds or so, and has no effect on the end result.

Balance
 

I have built 9 of these conversion so far and have yet to detect any balance change. One of the 951 based track cars I did actually lost 40 lbs off the front end. The LT1 conversion will gain around 60 lbs due to the weight of the iron block but the LS1 cars end up close to the same front to rear weight. I am sure Tony and others can confirm my experience as well.

LS1 weighs over 50 lbs less than the stock 951 motor. So balance isn't effected, it anything it's better.

When I was looking around for rebuilt stock motors, I couldn't find any for less than $4000. Where can you get a completely assembled, rebuilt short block for $2000 or less?

As I said, price on the conversions is very dependent on how much you spend on the motor, what the labor rate is and how you decide to build the car.

Tony, I'll drop you a note, I have some questions for ya...

More progress made, stock motor is out.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...4motorout1.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...4motorout2.jpg

Lindsey for one:

944T 2.5L REBUILD "SHORT BLOCK"
Code: LRA-ENG-951-25L-SB
Price: $1,999.00
Click for Product & Pricing Detail
Quantity in Basket: none

http://www.lindseyracing.com/LR/Parts/ENGINES944T.html

Locally there is Stuttgart Motors in Williamsburg that will rebuild for $1600-$2200 based on condition and upgrades. That includes bolting up YOUR head/cam tower assem., etc...to make it a long block.

If you read the Lindsey website, you'll see that they do *not* include assembly for that price. Once you add assembly and shipping, it isn't such a bargain.

could probably save a few $$$ by using the truck motors, they're significantly cheaper than the aluminum blocks. Heavier obviously... but the additional weight is probably not noticed under most circumstances due to the amount of torque the v8's produce.

WOW....I didn't notice that. Why in the world would someone claim 'engine rebuild' but exclude re-assembly??? Very misleading IMO.

Sorry Doc.

My car sits noticeably higher in the front since doing the swap, so I would agree that the LS1 is lighter than 951 motor with turbo, etc. However, I also converted to manual steering, so it's a little bit "extra lighter" without the PS stuff. Wish I had a big scale to weigh both engines when I had them sitting together. That's the most common question that I am asked now... "did you have to change the suspension to compensate for the extra weight?" People are always really surprised at the answer. Good luck with the swap. You're gonna love it.

Bear in mind you are comparing a used motor (LS1) to the cost of a rebuilt 951 shortblock. Now the LS should last a good while but some have piston slap problems and I would be concerned about that and only buy a runner that I could fire up dead cold before money changed hands.

All in all I think one day (possibly now) the LSx will be the way to go for serious power in a 944/968 but it's still not cheap and I am still wondering how it all comes together with AC, power brakes, conversion parts quality, etc.

If I was not committed to open-air motoring I'd just buy a 928 GT and if I got bored, add a blower. If you want to take the top off, that complicates things. I wish I liked Corvettes, life would be so easy.

-Joel.

Yeah, but I can buy a complete, brand new crate motor with a warranty (long block) from GM for $3200. That's the same amount of money a rebuilt short block 2.5l costs and that's from the cheap place. A rebuilt Chris White 2.5 is way more.

The truck motors are dirt cheap, like $700 cheap. However, they're a 5.3l vs the LS 5.7 and they weigh something like 100 lbs more. They make good power though and it's a really inexpensive way to get a V8.

CPR, yeah I think it's really disingenuous pricing as well. I was all set to order a 2.5 short block from them until I read the description again and noticed that assembly is another $1200+. At that point it wasn't a particularly good deal and was kind of a WTF moment.

Squires puts the price at $16000, if you provide the engine, did I read that right?

Not bad, with all the labor and custom pcs involved.

Trust me once that LS1 is in you will never look back.

The math is simple yes I could have gone with a Z06 but, like most of us I was already deeply invested in to my 944 turbo. I was already racing my car in a NASA group i liked. The roll cage, suspension, LSD race wheels ect were already done. I had a choice to make, rebuild the turbo motor for the 2010 season or the swap.

My used 2002 LSX was 2k
The kit was 6k
& 50 hours labor my mechanic worked on the side & gave me a great deal.

Ski if you do your own labor you can do the swap for less than what your last build cost & it will bring the car into the next century.

BTW at my last test & tune day my alternator went out, I went down to AutoZone & swapped the alternator in-between sessions. The rebuilt alternator cost me 160.00 & i kept the old one & had it rebuilt for 20 bucks. BTW I didn't miss a session & had it been the Porsche alternator that went out I would have been done.

we'll see what this motor does, should hit 370+ on hp and torque. We have two more blocks, kit for 2.8L, which will be our next rebuild I think. But, I might do this with a 968 for my next toy.

We have not possibility to use LSx series engines here. We can add legally on 20% "cubic inces", so 3.6L (when S2 is used as a starting point) is a maximum we can install. Also GM LSx engines are extreamly rare almost every european country. Would be nice to build such a car, still have a weak spot in my heart for good old detroit V8's :)

"WOW....I didn't notice that. Why in the world would someone claim 'engine rebuild' but exclude re-assembly??? Very misleading IMO."

Wow CPR, are you saying that about one of our vendors? Shame on you.....


Looks great! A good friend of mine did a LT-1 swap years ago, I believe he helped write a how to article on it. I loved the LT-1, the LS series motors should be even better.

Looks great so far Doc!

I don't think it's shameful of CPR at all and I happen to agree with him. It's very disengenous to advertise a price for a "rebuilt" short block and then read in the fine print that it's not assembled! That's not a rebuilt short block, it's just the parts TO rebuild the short block.

My entire swap, including motor and all needed parts will be far under the $16,000 Squires charges.

If you can do the labour yourself the cost is minimal...
 

I finished my conversion ~5 years ago. IIRC I have ~$5500 into the conversion. I had purchased, and enjoyed, my Turbo 944 5 years before that.
That $ amount includes a full rebuild/machining of the engine top to bottom; heads, forged pistons 11:1, ARP fastners, Mcleod clutch, cam, RR etc etc etc.
My car was very well maintained before I did the conversion so I didn't have to replace things like suspension or brakes, things that can add $$$ to the cost of a conversion.

I can honestly say that though I loved my sligthly modded 944 Turbo I would never trade it back for the set up I have now....never. I am sure that Doc will feel the same way after his first drive....:burnout:

You changed your badge to 948? :icon501: Honestly, I hope you guys are removing the Porsche badge from the hood too because what you have there is more a camaro or vette than anything else. Why don't you just buy another car?

Because he did not want too ????? it's not for everybody, his car his choice :cheers:

When you finish, if you don't mind, share the $$ or pm, I'm really curious. Good luck. Do you mind sharing who is doing your conversion?

There you go Ski.

Well, then I guess shame on me it is. I just call it like I see it....or how I interpret it. Maybe others read it differently.

But talking about shame.....

FROM YOUR FOR SALE AD:

https://rennlist.com/forums/7767448-post18.html


I thought you wanted something with more power? Or Something cheaper to get power from? A Boxster, eh?

No you didn't girlfriend
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...DsPdDyt0xZ8NU=

:) Todd

doc, what the specs on the cams you're putting in? and i haven't done too much research on the conversion, but i do have a camaro and my brother has a formy so i've at least got knowledge on the motors. is there room to fit in a set of long tubes? i assume the y-pipe back will need to be custom fab'ed? should be pushing 400whp easily with a decent cam, good flowing exhaust, and a tune.

I know this is all in jest but I have to say Touche. :D

Thank you sir for the link to my vehicle which is for sale!

And what is to be shameful about dreaming of a flat 6 with an exhaust on it !

Mainly because I have too many and I don't want to test the limit of my wife's tolerance. Also, I have always loved the way my 948 drives and looks, even before I converted it. Besides, have you ever driven a 3rd gen Camaro or a C4 Corvette? :rolleyes:....No thanks.

You know, you're right. I put a short list together:
Bosch
Audi
VW
ZF
Chevy
Brose
Brembo

Hmmmmm, since most parts on the 944 have the Audi four rings stamped on them somewhere I think we should all change our badges to Audi....I have a spare badge if you need one Seb :p

Doc, sorry for interupting your thread....

I didn't sell my car because:
#1 I'm already invested in the chassis with custom welded rollbar, sub strap and inner harness mounts
#2 Suspension, brakes, chassis, body are in good shape
#3 Bottom end was bad and to spend the money to fix it and then resell was financially unwise.
#4 See #3, selling car as is would've been a total slaughter

The car needed a new heart and I'd had it with throwing good money after bad with the stock engine.

And no, I'm not removing the porsche badge...

Still not sure about which cam I'm adding, I've heard the stock LS6 cam and a tune will get me the power levels I want. I am doing a set of headers, need them to clear the steering shaft. I'll be putting in a set of cats, then a Y pipe to a single 3" out the back in the stock location.

You should for sure put in an aftermarket cam. For one.... it's very easy to do with the engine out of the car and almost impossible to do with the engine in the car. Secondly... a cam and valve spring package are not very expensive. Third...even a mild cam will pickup a lot of power over the LS6 cam.

As far as exhaust goes... the car needs to have a dual 2.5" exhaust. A Y into a single 3 cat back will cost you about 15RWHP on the top end.

The other thing is the hood latch. If you put a sharp 90 in front of the throttle body you will loose power on the top end (like 10Hp). The best deal is to use hood pins and cut out the latch so that you can have a a straight shot of cold air with the air cleaner located where the intercooler used to be.


The headers/cam/dual exhaust setup/straight air intake will get you over 385RWHP+

TonyG

Any recommendations on which cam to use? People seem to like the 224 duration cams.

Good advice on the intake and exhaust, I'll definitely follow it. How's a dual 2.5" with an X pipe going into a dual inlet/exit exhaust?

any thoughts on the "LS hot cam"? I was at a chevy dealer not too long ago pricing out V8 stuff and iirc the hot cam kit was like $700 and worked on every LS motor.

I have nothing but good things to say about CompCams products. I am using their cam, springs, push rods and roller rockers. They have an excellent tech help line; they will recommend a cam, and other items, based on all your cars specs and its use.

Tony G has a nice dual exhaust setup, which IIRC is a dual 2.5". Others have made dual 2.5", from the headers, which cross over to dual 3" at/around the location of the original cat..... IMO a dual 3" would take away from your torque at this horsepower level
http://www.tonygarcia.org/944V8/exhaust/7.jpg

Hmm, I'll give Comp cams a call and see what they say...

CompCams is kinda generic though. Nothing wrong with them, but they're definitely not winning horsepower awards.

Anyways, someone from Texas Speed & Perf. (creators of the "Magic Stick" cams) suggested either a 224 or 230 duration cam with ~.575-585 lift for making broad, flat power bands. I use an Isky single-pattern 224/.575 113 LSA cam with Comp beehive springs, and this is my dyno:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a60...e/P1010369.jpg

Excuses: note how the power falls off at 5700rpms. This was because my throttle was only opening 3/4 of the way, and i had a 3" air intake with lots of ugly bends and squishes in it. Since then i've fixed that and my car pulls hard to ~6300rpms. (Oh, and i live at 6000'+, thus the correction factor). Check out the torque curve though :)

I think the V8 swap is cool. What class can you run them in? I figured since the engine isn't stock or of the same manufactor that it would put you in a class that is hard to be competitive in.

I would have loved to do the LS1 swap on my old 924S, but too bad the interior and all that needed to be completely redone. Otherwise I would have kept it. I like the 944 Turbo stock the way it is. Its a nice running car. But I understand the whole point of putting a v8 in it. For a nicer car I would say its not for me, unless I wanted big power, but to be honest unless your dragging the car you really don't need 500-600 hp. unless you just like to go fast.

I'm running in Time Trials.

I did the swap because the motor in mine was bad...

You run it in the GT class which is power to weight ratio based.

I know what the rules say about engine being of the same manufacturer but nobody cares about that. Everybody knows I'm running a GM engine and has ever complained or said a word about it. The license plate says PACN LS1 :-)

What they do car about is the actual power and weight of the car where they will take the car at impound and dyno it on a portable dyno as well as to stick it on the scales.

Unfortunately, a 944 will never be competitive in either GT2 or GT3 if properly prepared 996/997 cars ($$$) are there with good drivers.

But the car will run in the middle to top 1/3 of the Red race group where the speeds are blisteringly fast with excellent drivers all around you, so there's always someone to race with. And since I'm not getting paid to race... it's about the fun.

TonyG

Ordered a bunch of stuff today, autometer water temp gauge, oil cooler, Turn 1 power steering pump and hood pins.

Here's the clean pic...

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...e/clean951.jpg

Looks good!
My only comment would be to sell your Turbo coolant reservoir and pick up an N/A reservoir. The extra nipple isn't needed, and the turbo reservoir is worth a bit more.

Might as well get a GT Racing fiberglass hood. No point in cutting holes in the stock hood. Plus the hood swap to fiberglass is one of the biggest things you can do to save weight (plus it's easy to do).

TonyG

Gotta rock the stock hood for a coupla reasons..

I'm already at the weight limit for the class I run, if I drop more weight I either need to go up a class or dial out power.

Also, funds are allocated elsewhere, I don't have the cash ready for a new hood, paint it etc...

That's a good attitude Tony!

No.... you do the hood because the weight is up high on the car.

Also... while you're at it, dump the stock battery and get a odyssey PC 545 battery with the included battery bracket and the automotive terminal kit. This weight is also up high on the car.

http://www.odysseybatteries.com/battery/pc545series.htm

Those two alone will probably drop close to 50lbs off the front of the car.

Then you add weight down low to the passenger side floor to keep the weight low and put the weight where it will help corner balance the car.

Plus you'll have room to install a kill switch if you don't already have one.

Nothing illegal about moving weight around :-)

TonyG

how much do you think the stock battery weighs? and did you have a FG hood when devon and i saw the car? i cant recall.

The Odyssee battery is 11.2 lbs
The stock battery is about 54lbs (depending on the brand).


The fiberglass hood is like 7-8 lbs. I don't know what the stock hood weights but it's a hell of a lot more than 7-8lbs.


TonyG

I'm getting all hot and bothered by this thread. Tony I aim to walk in your shadow. My car will follow Doc's, but I have also added a 224/230 cam and some mildly ported heads which should help achieve ~400 rwhp

You're gonna love it.

My LS1 has the RH headers, dual 2.5" exhaust, the MTI Stealth 2 cam (ground by comp cams...which is a cam on the mild side) & valve spring/retainer package, a larger throttle body with straight shot to air cleaner, and a reprogrammed ECU. 389RWHP on 91 octane. Everything else is bone stock.

And it does it all day long without breaking a sweat.

Runs dead nuts even down the straights with a LS7 Z06 & the Nissan GTR (I get 'em in the corners though.... ha)


TonyG

PS> I tell everybody this... if you can afford it, you're much better off buying a car that has the conversion done. Apples to apples it will be far less expensive in the long run. Plus you get to play now vs having to deal with the build.

It's always cheaper to buy a completed project, as long as it was done properly. Having to figure out what's wrong on a converted car isn't a whole lot of fun.

As much as I'd like to drop all the weight, this car isn't a gutted track car, ie, I don't have a mechanism to add ballast elsewhere in the car, I have a passenger seat in it and do drive it around on the street sometimes.

I also don't want to spend even more $$ on a hood, battery, etc. If I need to replace the battery down the road, then I'll go with the lighter one...

Wow that's some progress Doc! is that up at Poudre or is it here in Littleton? I'd like to take a look sometime.

Car is actually in Texas. The shop there has done several of these conversions...

bummer, so I won't get to see the progress.. when do you get it back?

Hopefully in a couple of weeks. Depends on the headers, they're sending them to the shop so the smog pump fittings can be attached, then they go back to the header company for final welding and coating.

Everything else is ordered and taken care of...

Tony G, does the turn 1 pump give you enough pressure to provide steering assist at low speeds? Havent gone that route since Im unsure it works..........


Thanks

Jpr

It has been suggested that the Turn 1 pump, being the same external dimensions and appearance as the factory GM pump, is simply a factory pump with the pressure relief spring/valve modified or removed

I ordered one yesterday afternoon, they have one specifically for the LS motor and 944 steering rack...

Well DUH.

Hmmm, well if it works and I don't boil fluid on track like Tony did with the stock pump it's worth it.

The Turn1 pump is an off-the-shelf brand new GM f-body pump that is modified for the pressure and volume requirements of the Porsche R&P. It works exactly like the stock Porsche pump (because it's providing the exact same pressure and volume), except it doesn't leak or make funny noises like the Porsche pump.

I actually messed around with the stock pump i had trying to get the pressure and volume right (and there is more to it than just the spring), but in the end it's pretty difficult to ballpark it with no tools to measure the results! If you ask me the Turn1 pump is a necessity for these swaps.

Hey...

Do yourself a favor and have V bands installed on the headers.

That was a mistake I made before I remembered what a pain in the ass 3 bolt header flanges are.


TonyG

Yeah. Seems just like stock in its operation to me.


TonyG

From my understanding... which makes sense, is that it's not so much a pressure thing. It's a volume thing.

The pump generates too much volume at higher rpms...which is where you spend your time rpm wise on the track (which explains why it only affects cars... both F body and 944's that are used on the track BTW).

When this happens (more volume that what is needed due to sustained high rpms) the fluid is internally bypassed and recirculated. It this action that overheats the fluid. And no oil cooler will help because it's occurring internally in the pump itself.

TonyG


PS> I could be wrong... but that's what I was told and it would seem to make sense. All I know is that it fixed my problem plus I have a brand new pump which is one less thing to leak/fail.

I honestly don't know what volume the stock GM pump puts out in comparison to what the Porsche rack expects. I asked in numerous places and nobody could tell me! Of course, i'm sure TurnOne has the answer to that, but i wouldn't expect them to share....

However, from what i've read the stock GM pump puts out about 900-1000psi and the Porsche system puts out around 1200-1300. The Corvette system (same pump, different pressure spring) puts out approximately 1200psi as well. You can go to GM and buy the Corvette pressure spring and "body" (not sure what it's called). When i was messing with it all i was shimming the f-body spring to achieve a higher pressure and it felt great, but the fluid would eventually boil. I believe this is because it had too great of a volume for the Porsche system and the fluid would just recycle itself into oblivion. But, eventually my pump started making noise (crappy reman, plus i had been messing with it, so who knows!), and i just decided it was time to call TurnOne. Fun times though! :)

Very true!
However, i did the next best thing and welded some large washers with one side cut off to the bolt heads. That way the bolt stays put while i'm tightening the nut. Still wish i had v-banded the headers when they were off the car, though...

Well, the shop was sort of in a holding pattern waiting for parts to arrive. They pretty much finished up the wiring harness. Yesterday almost all the parts arrived: bellhousing, headers, oil cooler core, water temp gauge, muffler. We're still waiting for the Turn 1 PS pump, the clutch and flywheel and I need to order a cam.

I'm debating between the Texas Speed 228R cam and their 233/239 cam. Any thoughts?

Things are going well with parting out the turbo stuff I don't need. I'm down to the head, motor mounts and my 2 sets of DME/KLR. I still have a few other things like an alternator, etc, but I've sold most things of value.

OK, I believe this is a new land speed record for LS swap... Holy crap Doc, Nice work!

Now to get it wrapped up, and some driving feedback!

the 233/239 cam is going to be too big. That one is going to be over .600 lift and then you will need more than beehive springs and your stock rockers and pushrods will be stressed. That's also a cam for over 400 whp and will likely have more issues with vacuum at idle. I thought your car was going to be full-emissions compliant too?

Yep, I need it to be emissions compliant, so if the larger cam isn't going to let me go through smog, it's out.

Texas Performance recomended beehive springs and different pushrods for the 228R cam, I was debating going to roller rockers as well.

The ‘while you’re in there’ effect can strike the V8 guys too! ;)

Yeah, difference is the parts cost is WAY less!! :D

Yeah - but now you have to bring SAE and metric tools to the track!!! :rolleyes::D

well..... not so much

LS fasteners are metric too.:surr:

Hey Doc, I highly recomend calling the vendor directly regarding emissions...... As mild as you are planning I doubt any problems, but that is a PITA job to do in the car if you find it won't pass. Make a 5 min call and be sure :thumbup:

I would recommend the roller rockers. With the higher rate springs and the higher lift cams, they should make the valve train last longer as well as make a couple of horsepower.

Really? I wouldn't have guessed that! What about the rest of the cars they came packaged in?

Yup, true story.

So far every fastener I touched on my C5 Z06 except the aftermarket blower tensioner reinforcement is metric. I assume the same is true for the other LS cars as well (camaro, caddy cts, gto, etc)

by the time the LS came out gm had gone full metric. it was the LTs that had a mix of metric/SAE

The roller rockers aren't really necessary for a 228* cam, the stock LS rocker arms are pretty good--they're roller, but not roller tip. They're also really easy to change out later if you decide that you need to!

Make sure you get an upgraded billet double-roller timing set, and a good oil pump. I just went with an SLR pump (IIRC).

Just shows you how long its been since I have laid a wrench on Chevy....:)

is that because theyre so reliable? :p

that is incorrect

all the fasteners on a LTx are metric headed. Some still have SAE threads but have been metric headed since the 80's

Well if that doesn't make perfect sense, I don't know what does...

moral of the story, not SAE tools needed

As far as what i carry in terms of tools whenever i hit the road, i always use Metrinch anyways: http://www.metrinch.com/

They fit both standard and metric nuts/bolts and they're way less likely to round off the head of something. Worth every penny!

Wow. That is effed. Where do you order these mysterious hybrid bolts if you need a replacement?

no need to order just go to the local parts store :)

did you know porsche did the same?

but thats a whole different thread :) (pun intended)

Talked to the shop, they feel a 224* is as much as I can go and be sure to pass emissions.

Where should I order the double roller timing chain and oil pump from? When do you replace the water pumps on these motors? My motor has 64k miles on it, should I replace the water pump now?

well, I know on the LT motors, I've seen water pumps last for oh, 90-120K. so I think you're good. but while your in there it shouldn't hurt. BTW. bring it to me for service!

224 doesn't tell us anything about the cam timing. You need the cam card.

Post the cam card online and we can take a look at it and tell you what's up.

If you're running cats and you have a wide LSA, you won't have a problem.


TonyG

lots of cores floating around in texas for rebuilds,

since it was Texas DPS flagship motor for several years.

LS1tech.com is an excellent resource where I have looked for info

This one:
Intake Duration: 222 Degrees at .050" Tappet Lift.
Intake Lift: .597" with 1.7 rockers.
Exhaust Duration 226 Degrees at .050" Tappet Lift
Exhaust Lift .598" with 1.7 rockers.
113 Degree LSA

Or this one:
224/224 .581/.581 Camshaft With Your Choice of Lobe Seperation.

I would guess that the first one would be tough to pass emissions with.

The second one is very similar to what i have (and i purchased it because i felt i could probably pass emissions if i needed to). A 113-114 LSA is about all you can get away with, but you won't be disappointed in the performance :)

If your criteria is must pass emissions the cam manufacturer will know best..... if they can't tell you go to a different manufacturer.

Comp Cams actually has a pretty good tech support line. They can and will custom grind any spec you want if for some reason they don't already have one for your needs
.
I know your in a hurry Doc, but if not passing emissions really is a showstopper take a little time and do a little homework.
:cheers:

I called the cam manufacturer and the 1st cam should pass. So I ordered it along with springs, pushrods, gaskets and a double roller timing chain..

:thumbup:

[QUOTE=docwyte;7816994]I don't think it's shameful of CPR at all and I happen to agree with him. It's very disengenous to advertise a price for a "rebuilt" short block and then read in the fine print that it's not assembled! That's not a rebuilt short block, it's just the parts TO rebuild the short block.

Actually, there is nothing disengenous about it at all. Like buying a new car, you start with the base price and add options and accessories. Assembly is an option just like adding a stouter connecting rod.

There is a bright yellow link saying click for pricing and details. The first option in ALL CAPS asks you if you want it to be assembled and tells you how much extra that is. So if you can read, and we give our customers that credit, you don't have to read but the first sentence. Nothing hidden, nothing disengenous. You "cannot" make the purchase on the site without being confronted with answering that question and others, so there are no "buy now, get surprised later" issues here. You just need to be able to read.

Mike,

The confusion comes when looking at rebuilt short blocks the assumption is it that it comes assembled. While it is listed that assembly is an additional charge and yes, we can all read, it's still a surprise.

The fact that I'm not the only one who was confused and surprised by it means it could be listed or explained more clearly on your site.

First off I appreciate what you do for the community, but this small portion of your site could use some clarification.

I just went to your site and listed under
"Short Block" Rebuild includes: on the last included point is
“Assemble Short Block Engine” So it almost reads as the $1999.00 would provide an assembled Short Block and the Customer will assemble would be a $600.00 reduction in price.

In reality you’re offering a Small Block machining and parts prep service. There really is no “Rebuild” for the advertised $1999.00.

Progress! Motor has been test fit with the headers and bell housing. Headers and bell housing fit great! The oil pan arrived late today, it'll get test fit tomorrow...

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...installed7.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...installed6.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...installed5.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...installed4.jpg

looking good, its going to be amazing

Doc, one thing you might want to consider adding at this point is a bellhousing/clutch scattershield. The modern clutch/pressure plate are pretty reliable, but they can fail and sometime with enough energy to come all the way through the floor board.

The bellhousing I'm using has an integral scatter shield in it. This way I can take the car to Bonneville. :D

Damn you're fast.

Looking good.

Not done yet! Headers need to have the smog stuff tacked on, then sent back for final welding and coating. Oil pan doesn't fit, so either need to find one that does, or do a custom cross member.

Everything else is there and ready to bolt in.

anything "special" for your build, or just the standard LSx + F-body accessories + C5 BH + magical headers + magical oilpan?

oil pan mods are very well documented at
http://944hybrids.forumotion.com/forum.htm

if you got some tig / fab skills you can shorten the pickup tube for a tighter fit and no spacer on CM

I have discussed this a number of times on said forum

QT bellhousing with integral scatter shield. Spec aluminum flywheel and clutch, Mocal oil cooler, mild cam, 2.5" dual exhaust, "secret" headers and oil pan.

Did you decide to go with the side pipes? ;)

Lookin' good man, can't wait to go for a ride!

I'm not sure if this was asked in the pages, but do you plan to keep it NA or turbo/SC it down the road?

Maybe a rear mount TT set up???? :)

I should make plenty of power NA, somewhere around 385-400rwhp. I can't imagine adding FI to this thing, I think I'll have enough trouble keeping the tires planted!

Greg, hopefully get it back in a few weeks!

I can't really imagine wanting more power on mine unless it was a dedicated track car. I should be in the same power range.

Renegade Hybrids has a perfect baffled oil pan.

A race pan is far better than a stock pan and a cut up or home made cross member.

1/2 the stuff you read on porschehybrids should be taken with a grain of salt BTW...


TonyG

Great job Doc, hope we could do similar conversion here legally.

Hmm, may call Renegade for the oil pan.

Olli, why isn't a swap like this legal for you? As long as you keep all the proper emissions stuff, why would it be a problem?

You do realize you are killing me here Josh?!!!!

I bought my car with a bad motor specifically to do this swap with. Then I started to tinker with the motor and had it running easily. Decided to drive it with the 4 popper until it broke again. Now everything works and works well...DOH!


I have been searching for a car with an ls to test drive and fortunately/unfortunately there are none local to mess with........until now! I'm kinda afraid to get near your car. It may cause the motor to come flying out of mine!!!

Grrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!'. ;-)

ha, HA! (Nelson voice)

I'm sure it'll corrupt you in all the ways you fear. :D

I swear! I am not seduced by horsepower:icon107:

I just have two turbo Porsches and an R1 because they were practical :roflmao:

Hmmm, oh really? The first time you ride in my car and the tires break loose in 3rd gear I'm sure you'll resist the temptation.

just curious, are you hoping to make 400RWHP corrected for altitutde or 400RWColoradoHp?

It'll be corrected for altitude, so in reality much less up here...

Looks good! Keep the pictures of the swap coming!:bigbye::nono::p

Champ did make an oil pan for this conversion. Might want to see if they still do. I almost bought one and it was the price of an off the shelf Moroso pan.

Too much cubic inches :)

We can add legally 20%. So if you take for example S2, maximum you can have is a 3.6L engine.

What's the reasoning behind that law? Seems kind of obscure. As long as it can pass inspection, why would it matter if it's got 3.6l or 5.7l?

I suppose it's mainly a safty issue. We have to remember cars here are smaller what you have and most of them are usually equipped with small engines. I suppose most common engine size is 1.6L. Then lots of cars with even smaller engines. if we take 2.0L or bigger engines, they are minority. So when most cars are rather small with small engines, it would be quite dangerous to install over 5.0L engines to these cars.

We are perhaps with Danes and Creeks the worst example in EU, because car taxation in these countries are worlds highest. That explains smaller cars with smaller engines.

Also when you have to pay about 6€/gallon you think more how big engine you would like to have. That's the main reason why my wife car's is equipped with diesel engine, which average consume is about 4.8L/100km when with 5.7L engine it's easily about 15-20L/100km. Diesel fuel is also a little bit cheaper. Diesels are getting more and more popular because there is usually around 100nm more torque compared to same size gas engine. For daily driver i prefer diesel, much more nicer engine to drive than gas ones.

What comes to Porsche prices.Here's an example for you.
Starting price of the cheapest Porsche Boxter in USA is $ 46,600.00
In Finland it is $ 93,934.00
So you can considered lucky ones; car cost you half what we pay and also you gas price is about 1/4 what we pay... I wonder how News Week Magazine ranked last week Finland as "Best country in the World" :)

Vehicle emissions are measured in PPM (parts per million). So a larger engine pollutes more, even though its PPM remains below a certain threshold. I personally think it's a pretty reasonable law, even though i might think differently if i were the one affected :)

Edit: Olli beat me to the punch. I will say that Europes small diesels are wonderful to daily drive. While in Norway i rented a Toyota with a 1.7(?)L diesel. I got nearly 60mpg (equivalent) and it made torque all day long. Unfortunately, they don't meet the US standards for emissions (soot).

That's quite funny, because in europe diesels get lighetr taxation because they pollute less than gas engines according to tighter EU regulations.

They have fewer emissions, but they produce soot. I agree that it is a "lesser evil", though.
A friend of mine has a new diesel BMW. The car has to have a system that sprays urea (google it!) into the exhaust to clean off the soot. It is really strange the way the US deals with emissions!

On the other hand, i have read that soot (from a diesel or a volcano) is really bad for the environment in a number of ways.

did you guys get the 96-99 ford taurus SHO? theres a 3.4L, 8000-rpm boost-friendly v8 for you :D

That depends on how you define "emissions." The US has historially had MUCH more stringent emissions requirements than the rest of the world, where emissions are NOX and unburned HC. Compared to industrialized Europe, a lot of the US is lower in lattitude, where it gets more humid, etc. Plus with more and bigger cars on the road (which is really a fallout of our geographic isolation in WWII), we used to have BIG problems with smog.

Especially in LA. And if you've heard of the term "CARB," it stands for "California Air Resources Board," which is the catalyst for all emissions standards that come into play.

An example here is that we've had catalytic converters here since 1973. They are newer to Europe. Because fuel economy is more important in Europe, you used to run lean burn strategies over there to improve mileage (by running A/F ratios around 17:1, going off of memory). That drives up EGT's to a point where the catalytic converters get cooked, so we could never do that (not to mention it would also increase NOX to the point where we couldn't pass our emissions requirements).

Well Olli, Finland is the best place to live because of all the hot, blonde girls, obviously!

More pics, exhaust is mocked up. Just need to get the X-joint in it, final welding on the exhaust done and pick some exhaust tips...

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...ustport007.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...ustport008.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...ustport009.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...ustport012.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...ustport010.jpg

Awesome project Doc, the new shops seems to be working quickly and nicely! It is also nice to see another 951 in their hands :burnout:

A TRAILER HITCH?!?!?

Yep, I tow a small trailer to the track with it. Holds my race wheels/tires, has a tool box and gas cans.

At some point I'd like to get a truck/trailer and I'll do a full cage in the 944, but right now that's just not possible...

Where are you going to fit the "H" pipe?

Don't leave power on the table.

You can get one in there right behind the cats.

TonyG

Yep the plan is to put one in right behind the cats.

You sound so european. here in Europe people think americans pollute much more compared to europeans :)
I am awere of US emissions systems, i have "hor rod" background, so have ownd US made vechiles and my friends as well. early 70's emissions were more non catalytic systems, which air pumps etc. Remember well my friends 454 powered Chevy which only had about 200 hp because all emissions systems.
At least in EU countries emissions requiments are as tight as in USA, If i remember correctly, state of California have had quite stict regulations.New EU-5 standard is even stricker. What comes to economy-driven countries, EU countries joinded to Kioto-envirnonment agreement. For example USA, China & Russia did not. These countries said it would cost too much for their economy system. I know all of us who live in industrial countries must take these issues seriously. One of the main problem is, less we pollute, then undveloped high populationa countries pollute more and more, like India,China etc. So situation remains more or less the same.

Back to the cars;
yes we have some Ford Taurus here, unfortunately most of them are 6-cylinder cars.

Diesels in Europe does not produce that soot because new particel filter(good for EU-5 standard). We can though improve systems

You unintentihelp make my point that "it depends on how you define emissions." Kyoto address CO2. CO2 is not an "emission" in the traditional US sense. CO2 is directly proportional to one thing, almost exclusively - fuel economy. WHIch competes with "emissions" in the traditional US sense - NOX and unburned HC. All the things we put on cars to reduce emissions make our fuel economy go down.

I do recognize that newer European standards are much more stringent than in the past. But between our safety requirements, which add size and mass to cars, and our preference for cleaner emissions over fuel economy, we are going to continue to use more fuel.

To give an example of how much our emissions requirements hurt fuel, take a look at what some recent diesel truck owners are doing. I've got a CUmmins 6.7, which has all of hte crap on there. Removing the EGR, DPF, and downstream cat typicallly increases fuel economy by about 30% (!). 15 MPG city becomes 19. 18 highway, though, is becoming as high as 25 for some folks!!!!!

One thing that hurts us is our preference/need for bigger vehicles. But that is a whole 'nother discussion.

Doc

If you put a merged style x pipe at around 1.63 to 1.66 (based on assumptions of scale from pictures) times the average length of your primary header tubes back from the end of the primary tube (not collector) that will produce the best volumetric pulse efficency AND produce a nice exhaust note rarely heard on a domestic engine.

Something like the below is very easy to incorporate into a parallel type tube arrangment.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MPE-10791/

picture...
http://static.summitracing.com/globa...pe-10791_w.jpg

I can't help but wonder what kind of market there may be for a flat crank for some of the more popular domestic small blocks. Imagine a 944 sounding like a Ferrari (yes, VE will go up, too). That'd be SWEET.

+1 I've dreamed of a flat-crank option for an LSx for years now... Then stuff it into an MG MGB :rockon:

Yep, that's the type of X pipe we plan to use, just need to get it on there.

flat firing aka 4 7 swap with a custom cam has been popular in the dirt track world for years so popular that several people make a off the shelf cam for it.

wont get into it here as to not jack the thread

That's different than what I'm talking about. That's just a cam swap involving two cylinders. You'll change seven with a flat crank. Using the Ford Modular as a basis (just because I know the firing order, and how Ford numbers its cylinders).

1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 - cruciformed (i.e. traditional) crank
1-5-3-7-4-8-2-6 - "flat" or "planer" crank

Here's why you do it. For a given manifold, here are the pulse separations
90-180-270-180 (first bank)
180-90-180-270 (second bank)

Now, when you go to a flat crank, here are the pulse separations
180-180-180-180
180-180-180-180

It is the 90 degree pulse separations that kill you. If you go into a common plenum, on either the intake or exhaust, you'll have all kinds of crazy secondary waves going all over the place. With a flat crank, everything is even and perfect. You get incredibly good tuning. Which is why Ferraris and non-NASCAR race car engines like Indy do that.

Sorry for the hijack, doc. Just needed to explain things a little since I screwed up and got it out there.

I used the old trick of using spray paint on the exhaust. Doing a few hard acceleration runs then installing the H pipe where the paint has burned off the most.

That's exactly where I had mine installed.


TonyG

Here in Europe the trend is to go smaller engines which pollute less. For example my wife just got a new cars which is more or less simlar than her old one. New car have 1.6L diesel engine (all are turbos here) which produce the same power level than her previous 1.9L diesel. Also torque figures are the same, but fuel consumption is much lower than this 1.9L version had. Also same thing with normal gas powered cars. Take for example VW/Audi/Skoda/Seat (use same engines). Smallest engine is 1.2L turbo/supecharged which produce as much power as 1.6L used to produce two-three years ago. Also torque is in the same level, but this engine needs lot less fuel than 1.6L one does. Same style 1.4L engine produce hp/torque what 2.0L produce few years ago; but with less fuel/pollution. twin charged smaller engines are the route the most european manufacturers follow just now.
What comes the safety issues, look like most european manufacturers are going to lighter materials to keep weight down and still make cars more safe as they used to be. OK, this all is off topic to this V8 thread, back to the business.

I would also like to see flatbed crank in some high production less expensive engine, like Chevy V8. I suppose there are manufactureres who build cranks for Chevy engines, at least there were when i build those engines. Don't know how expensive it would be a make an special order for flatbed crank to LSx series engines, would be nice to see, if any manufacturer is willing to build such a crank.
There are also opposite cranks made for flat bed V8 engines. Ferrari did it for Lancia Thema's "top-of-the-line" model(late 80's-early 90's), which was equipped with Ferrari V8 with normal crank.
I suppose you can have flatbed crank made chaply in China....

Same trend over here Olli – the only difference is that we used to have 8 liter engines – 5.7 liters is smaller!!!:)

I still have a 8.2 liter turbo diesel….! :eek:

8.2L diesel with turbo should have enough torque :)

To tow a house. I lived in Europe and always followed cars. Even now when I go back I get amazed at what they can get out of the 1.2 turbo engine on the Renault clio.

Im digging the dual exhaust!

+1 it would be really cool to see a flat plane crank for a LSx engine. Surely there must be a reason why it's not commonly available?
Or do 99% of the LSx owners prefer the "truck" rumble to high pitched race (in my opinion) sound?
And there's enough torque anyway :)

Perhaps too much vibrations with a flat plane crank for a LSx engine?

180° cranks induce more vibration than 90° cranks, so this is a problem especially on larger stroke engines.

dvc, the vette guys were saying your 944 Ls2 is for sale. I posted on the other forum but no reply. If true i'll take it. reply please asap

Not sure if that post is for me. My LS1 944 is not for sale...

Sorry Ed, my car is not for sale. I'm installing a built LS7 and was planning to sell my current motor to offset the cost. Perhaps that's what created the confusion.

Nice. Are you're keeping the stock LS7 dry sump?

GEEZ-O-PETE I've been waiting for someone to put an LS7 in one. 427 in a 951! That's gonna be tough to keep those tires hooked up!

Well, the cam, valve springs, pushrods and timing chain arrived today. Finally!

The motor can go into the car permenantly now. Still waiting on the headers to get back from coating/final welding and the oil pan. Both are on their way, I was hoping they'd arrive today so the shop would have everything.

At least with the motor built and in the car the wiring harness can be done, brakes can be done, AC can be done, etc, etc...

haven't had time to keep up with the thread, but which cam did you end up ordering? and are you running stock heads?

Through a complete vendor comedy I ended up with a Thunder Racing 224 cam.

Doc,
Thunder racing has a great reputation on LS motors. If I decide to change the cam in my LS3 Hot cam motor I would probably work with Thunder Racing. They are approximatley 5 miles from my house.
Max
225 573-0664

Dyno 224 cam with other "stuff" added. Got to love that torque curve from 2k-6K.

tr224 is a good, proven cam. older in design, but you'll probably see 380ish rwhp on stock heads. 30-40+ with aftermarket heads.

Mid to high 380's is the limit I can make to stay in TTS, so that'd be fine. I'm running the '02 SS heads (241's I think) and LS6 intake manifold and throttle body along with 1 7/8's long tube headers, cats, custom 2.5" dual exhaust with X pipe and a straight shot intake.

can't wait to see videos, cammed ls1's sound so sick. the s2 tranny will hold up with the ls1? also, 380hp-ish is the average for f-body drivetrain loss, might be higher/lower with the 944 components.

been considering throwing a cam in my formy, especially with those 5.0 rustangs becoming popular.

Yeah, it should be up and running by this coming weekend! I'm really excited about it!!

S2 trans should hold up fine, it has the hardened internals that the 951S trans do, plus I added a strengthening plate to it.

I'm heading back up there this weekend. Hopefully I'll see yours running

I was going to hit Texas Motorsports Ranch on the 18th till my wife reminded me it's a rather large holiday for us that day. Doh! Just sent an email to cancel my date and will hopefully be able to run the following weekend instead.

I have stock 241 heads with a stock LS1 intake, RH headers with dual 2.5" exhaust, larger throttle body, MTI Stealth 2 cam with the TI spring/retainer package, custom tune... here's my dyno. Yours should be pretty close.

http://www.tonygarcia.org/944V8/944V...yno-4.1.08.gif


TonyG

Nice! That would work well for me.

Just a warning to the OP - Rennlist gets kinda boring when you come here and 99% of the threads don't apply to your car anymore! :)

That's when you post videos and have everyone drool over them! :D

Update!

Cam, push rods and valve springs have been installed. Motor is ready to go into the bay for the final time.
Headers and oil pan are on their way, car will hopefully fire at the end of the week.

I believe this thread title should be changed to "how to install a LT1 in under 30 days"..

Wow dude, just wow...

LS1, NOT LT1 - big difference :thumbsup:


Lokin good Doc!!!!

Damn thing belongs in a vette not a Porsche, but I'm not splittin hairs.. :evilgrin:

Step 1. Hand credit card to shop.
Step 2. Enjoy.
:p

Fire is a bad word to use around a 944.

Update! Motor is put together and should be going in the car soon. Pics below! I went with a double roller timing chain while the engine was out too.

Yes, I'm paying a shop to do the work, although I wish I was able to use my credit card! While I could've done the work myself it would've taken me forever to get it completed. Next race season, maybe! I haven't been able to enjoy the car since I bought the damn thing, so it's worth it to me to have it professionally built so I can hopefully start driving it now.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...engine_045.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...engine_043.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...engine_026.jpg

You sure that thing's gonna fit? ;)

wow that looks nice

The valve cover paint looks nice. Might have to copy that a little bit...although, i guess you can't see them under the coils... :)

WOW, just WOW.

Those headers look great. Are they modified S&P headers?

No room for LT on the 944 body?

also, any reason you didn't get offroad headers? like without the AIR and EGR ports for emission control?

You can do LT or LS. The headers have to be CARB legal in his state.

What's the deal with the header collector? Do they bolt onto the primaries?

TonyG

i meant long tubes

The set of headers I have are longer than those just becaues the collectors are welded to the tubes . I think long tube headers are just a space issue. I have seen one set someone made but they were not in a car.

I haven't seen the collectors yet Tony. I assume they bolt to the primaries and neck down to then bolt to the cats.

Yep, I have to run all the emissions stuff in my state, that's why I have the smog pump fittings on them. These are as long tube as I can run and still fit everything properly.

They are the S&P headers, fit very well!

The oil pan has finally arrived, so hopefully everything is going into the car and it will fire soon!

Oh and Greg, it'll definitely fit!

Long tube headers on the 944 LS2:

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/3253/headersce.jpg

Damn those are impressive!

Very nice header/exhaust setup.

agreed. If you were going for just maximum raw horsepower, i'd definitely suggest LT and true duals. Some guy on ls1tech did a comparison on his h/c car and i think he gained something ~15 HP with true duals and dumping the exhaust by the axle. but again, i don't know if the effect will be as drastic with the 944 since there's less bends... and no over axle bend.

also, you said you're trying to stay within 380 so you're probably fine as is.

DVC, what headers are those? and how'd you get them to come together like that?

Over a comparably-sized single? I would be really surprised. If he went from a single 3" to dual 2.5" i could see a hp gain (just from a cfm of airflow standpoint), but just having dual pipes isn't an advantage. In fact, it destroys velocity, which affects scavenging:

https://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b.../pipe_flow.jpg

Here's the link in the picture, has some nifty calculators:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/da...ion-d_646.html

On a v8, the only reason i would go with duals is for sound...but then, i also have no complaints about the sound from my single 3.5" :thumbsup:

I believe Tony found a +15rwhp gain going from a single 3" to dual 2.5" exhaust. That's why I did it...

Right, but again that's going from a smaller exhaust to a bigger exhaust:

Area (pi x r^2):
3" single: 1.5^2 x 3.1415926.. = 7.0685...
2.5" duals: 1.25^2 x 3.1415926.. x 2 = 9.81747...
3.5" single: 1.75^2 x 3.1415926.. = 9.6211...

So my point is, duals aren't necessarily better than a single--and on paper at least, they have a decreased velocity, which would negatively affect scavenging.

In the end though, who cares. These are street motors, not F1 engines.

And the 2.5" duals still have a greater area than a single 3.5" (even if only by a little bit).

But the deal was the engine felt "flat" on top with the single 3". The duals added the power where it needed to be.

The other thing that help the top end was eliminating the sharp 90 degree bend in the intake (to clear the hood latch). But cutting out the hood latch and going straight from the throttle body to the MAF & Air filter I picked up another 7+RWHP ish... All up top.

Plus... it gave me an excuse to use a glass hood which saved a TON of weight (up high weight).

TonyG

A 2.5 dual exhaust with a properly placed x pipe will have different characteristics than the "on paper" calculations of two 2.5" pipes. Personally I would not even consider a single 3" for an LS converted car.

Definitely worth the effort Doc, is the right way to do it :thumbup:

I don't have a single 3" exhaust, nor was i advocating for a single 3". I'm talking about a single 3.5", which is what i have ;)
It fits better than duals, it's cheaper than duals, it has a higher exhaust velocity than duals, and in terms of pipe area it's only a tiny bit smaller than 2.5" duals (though if we were to really test them out, i think velocity would more than make up for the size difference).

Edit: by the way, i'm not saying anything bad about duals. I'm just saying that "dual exhaust" isn't necessarily a performance feature. A high flowing exhaust is what matters--whether it has one pipe, two pipes, eight pipes, or 100 pipes.

Edit again, here you go:
1. For avoiding significant restriction from back pressure, the pipe should flow at least 2.2CFM per horsepower produced.
2. A straight pipe will flow ~115CFM per square inch of area (using inside diameter of the pipe)
-(Courtesy of David Vizard)

I'm not going to measure the inside diameter of pipe, but just using the outside pipe diameters:
Dual 2.5" pipes = 9.8 x 115 = 1127 cfm / 2.2 cfm per horsepower = 512 horsepower capable
Single 3.5" pipe = 9.6 x 115 = 1104 cfm / 2.2 cfm per horsepower = 501 horsepower capable

Since we're all talking about 400hp engines here, there is no difference. If you approached the 500hp mark, i would move to a larger exhaust whether i had 2.5" duals or a 3.5" single.

...but don't let me stop you from enjoying the extra 11 horsepower that a 2.5" dual exhaust system could hypothetically handle :P

gotcha - I saw your chart with 2.5" vs 3" and assumed

Would love to hear/see back to back dyno of two 2.5, vs one 3.5 - would be curious about backpressure/low end/mid range comparisons. I suspect the twin muffler of a dual may have as good mid with a reduced backpressure benefit on top.

Point of correction... we are not talking about 400Hp engines. We are talking about 400HP at the wheels engines, which is about 470 Hp at the crank.

And the difference on my engine was over 15HP at the wheels SAE corrected on a dynojet... all in the mid to upper rpm range.

The exhaust with the straight shot intake made a very noticeable difference up top with even a bigger gain at the wheels.

The only problem I see with a single 3.5" exhaust is the inability to have a X or H pipe installed - at least in the correct position.

TonyG

Yes, but that was over a 3" exhaust. Between a 3.5" single and a 2.5" dual, there will not be that difference, except in your pocket book. An X or H pipe increases scavenging by increasing the velocity of the exhaust through that section. That isn't necessary on a single exhaust, because it already has that velocity.

And just for fun, since i was lazy earlier, i'm going to re-do my math:
Dual 2.5" exhaust with .049 wall thickness = 1.250" - .049 = 1.201 effective radius (squared) = 1.4424 x 3.1415926 = 4.5314 x 2 (dual exhaust) = 9.0628 square inch area.
9.0628" x 115cfm per inch = 1042, divided by 2.2 cfm per hp = 473.74 hp capable

Single 3.5" exhaust with .049 wall thickness = 1.750" - .049 = 1.701 effective radius (squared) = 2.8934 x 3.1415926 = 9.0898 square inches of area (uh oh!)
9.0898" x 115cfm per inch = 1045.327, divided by 2.2 cfm per hp = 475.1486 hp capable.

So, when you take into account the real-world concept of wall thickness, the dual 2.5" exhaust is actually inferior to a single 3.5". SO HA! EAT IT!! :rockon:

i think, on an f-body at least, that the true duals has less bends and therefore less turbulence in the air resulting in higher velocity. just the fact that they're usually dumped before the axle, thus no over-axle bend, and also the lack of a y-pipe. doing basic volume and flowrate of x sized pipe vs y sized pipe doesn't take that into consideration. basic physics that bends = turbulence = slower velocity.

i think.

i haven't really researched any of this, although i'm sure guys on here and on ls1tech can give a nice detailed explanation on why true duals results in more hp. that's just what i assumed.

So since you have a single 3.5" exhaust, what's your car dynoing out at? What mods do you have?

TonyG

Hmmm

Why does a single 3.5" exhaust "already have that velocity" where dual 2.5" doesn't?

How is it that if the 3.5 has a larger area than the dual 2.5" (according to your calcs...) how could the velocity be higher?

I'm real tired right now... but this doesn't seem to make sense. I've had a long 24 hours and I'm blow out...


TonyG

Y pipe to 3.5 " single exhaust ? awesome.









..











.

My 2.5" x piped dual setup on a LS is making 550RWHP...... so YOU AND YOUR MATH EAT IT!!!!! BAWAHAHAHAHA!

Pretty much the same mods as you. 224/.575 cam, ported throttle body, RH headers, home-made intake...
My last dyno ended at 5700rpm because my air intake was too small (3", crushed down to 2.5" to clear the headlight linkage) and my throttle was only going 3/4. Since then i've fixed all those issues, just haven't put it back on the dyno. I'm expecting 380-400rwhp. Last time it made 346rwhp at 5700rpms on a Land & Sea DynoMite (doesn't read as high as a dynojet).

At any rate, i don't really care to debate it anymore. I was just bitching earlier because someone made it sound like going to a dual exhaust (from an equivalent-size single exhaust) would make more power, and i think i've reasonably demonstrated that it isn't the case. I'm very happy with my 3.5" single.

Kind of an FYI for y'all discussing the merits of a single versus a dual exhaust system. Velocities are all well and fine, but they don't tell you the benefits of tuning. Exhaust systems tune just like intake ones. If done properly, they can improve performance. If done improperly, they can impede it.

This is true, but in this chassis, it's WAY more trouble than it's worth. On the hybrid forums there's always someone talking about making a set of true equal-length crossover headers....but i'll believe it when i see it. I'd rather lose a few hp on the top end and keep a few inches of ground clearance on the bottom end :)

i wanted to show you all Tuomo's 928 TT exhaust....

maybe the baddest Porsche's in Massachusetts @ 665 hp on the dyno !




/

that is pure pornography...:cheers:

On an ls f-body car, this is the case for whatever reason. I assume it's because duals has less bends on an f-body, gets rid of the Y-Pipe which I hear is where the power loss is from, because the pipes are angled poorly. There was a guy who cut and rewelded it, with a smaller angle, and found performance gains.

None the less, I stated that the 944, since the exhaust routing is different, might not show the same gains.

But that was a 2.5" dual versus a 3" single, right?
I don't even think they make a full 3.5" single for the Camaro (i searched a while ago). They make cat-backs, but not full 3.5's, and the restriction is before the cats.

Easier to show you a picture than to explain how it's all routed.

https://www.ls1tech.com/forums/attac...e-pic-0104.jpg

The cats are normally mounted in the y-pipe. 2 of them on a stock car. then it goes into a collector then catback. and there are 3.5'' collectors. y-pipe size is usually like 2.5 or 2.75 i think. this guy has a cutout after the collector, you can just ignore that.

Lets give Doc his thread back...

Motor is permenantly installed in the bay. Most of the wiring is connected. Fuel hoses are done. Oil cooler and PS cooler are mounted, hydroboost brakes mounted.

Will hopefully get pics up tomorrow.

good news for my boring A$$ night out here, since YoMama Obama driling moratorium is still in place. Pics for me tomorrow night so I can look forward to something. :)

I am bored to F'kg Death.

Here are some pics of the progress so far. Today he's planning on plumbing the PS cooler, hydroboosted master cylinder, heater hoses, radiator hoses, AC lines, oil cooler and oil filter relocation, etc.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...te/944LS13.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...te/944LS11.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...te/944LS14.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...te/944LS15.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...te/944LS12.jpg

very nice!! Are those mesh screens something that Eric did or did you have them already?

Eric made them. I had these fiberglass scoops in there. He's going to use those for the brake cooling ducts...

Looks good! When does it come back to Denver?

Car comes home October 2nd

More progress. Oil lines between the oil cooler, pan and filter relocation are done. Exhaust is completely done. You can also see the scoops used for the brake cooling ducts.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...dhosesd024.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...dhosesd025.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...dhosesd023.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...dhosesd022.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...dhosesd021.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...dhosesd020.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...dhosesd018.jpg

Excellent progress Doc, it looks great.

Only question I have is how are you going to get the oil to leak all over everything with the filter mounted upside down?

I'll have to try really hard! Obviously since it doesn't have the 951 stock motor in it I'm already at a huge disadvantage for oil leaks... :D

Looks great, but I'd rethink the oil cooler lines under the headers. That's asking for for problems.

It's way to easy for something to fly up and hit the lines, which would be disastrous. I hope they are at least steel braided lines (all the oil lines exposed to crap flying up should be at least stainless braided lines).

Then there's the heat. I see the insulation on the lines. The problem is that the insulation is exposed to the weather and water. It's not designed for that and will fall apart, which then exposes the lines to the super hot headers.

Other than that it looks good.

BTW, with a fiberglass hood, you don't need the spaces under the cross members and the A arms... Plus you save a TON of weight in the process.


Also.. the a/c compressor looks real real close to the frame rail. Do you have enough room there so that the engine can move around and the a/c compressor not contact the frame rail?

TonyG

Not going to get a fiberglass hood Tony. I can't because of power to weight restrictions on the class I'm running in. I also don't care to spend the money on one now, spending too much as it is!

Good points on the routing. I'm concerned about that too, but in looking at the pics, space is definitely tight, not sure how else they can be routed without going below the crossmember...

I did want to ask you where you got your Cup 2's widened to 11" and what offset you're running to be able to fit a 315...

look good, there better be video and more pictures when its completed!

I understand the money issues, but the glass hood is pretty inexpensive and has and had a good fit from the factory. Plus you can get rid of the 1/2" spacers which sort of screw up the front end geometry.

The weight limits of your class are non-issue. The hood weight is up high. You can take it off there, dump the spacers, and add the weight down low in the passenger seat area. This will make a big difference when you corner balance the car for sure. That's how you setup a track car to take advantage of the rules of your class.

As far as the wheels go....

If I keep the car (which I don't know at this point since I'm building a GT3 race car), I will be selling the wheels and going to 18" slicks.

The wheels will be sold with the appropriate spacers, for $1500 if you're interested, maybe more if I have good NT01's to go with them.


TonyG

Hmm, which hood are you talking about? The one on your car looks stock, I don't see a hood bulge in it.....

Tony, i think you are confused, no disrespect intended. Even with a fiberglass hood you still have to run spacers. The pictures you have on your website all have spacers in them:

http://www.tonygarcia.org/944V8/2/DSC02679.JPG

I run spacers, have the underside of my hood flattened (so it's as thin or thinner than a fiberglass hood), and i still have clearance issues.

Also, you ran your oil lines the same way docwyte's are run, and yours aren't even steel braided:

http://www.tonygarcia.org/944V8/2/DSC02678.JPG



Docwyte, the car is looking great! Are those A/C lines running across, or are you running an oil cooler over on the passenger side?

I'd be interested in some offset info too. Tony, did you get an email I sent to you about a week ago?

That's awesome Doc!
Although it's been long expensive road, I think your gonna like the car Allot more
sans turbo lag.

You're looking at old pictures. Those pictures were taken before we ever ran the car. And at that time, the car had a stock hood.

Now the oil lines are routed different, there's a Mocal oil thermostat, a huge oil cooler plumbed in, a different radiator, radiator fans, a couple of oil line shields, etc....

A lot has changed since those pictures.


*** But even in those pictures... the oil lines are far above where doc has run his. Doc's are below the headers which puts them at or slightly below the the engine cross member. Mine, in the pics, are far above the bottom of the cross member. ***
TonyG

Hey

No... never received an email from you.



TonyG

The stock hood, and the fiberglass hood, both do not have any "bulges" on them. There's no need.

So... in all the pictures.... you will see no bulge, no matter the hood.

The fiberglass hood, due to it being thinner above the throttle body area, allows me to get rid of the suspension spacers.


TonyG

PM sent.

Where are you sourcing the hood Tony? Also, where did you get the wheels widened and what offset are they?

Right now I have 4 17x9 Cup 2's with 275's on them. I have a feeling I'll need more rubber in the back and would like to send 2 of the wheels to get widened this off season...

I'd also be interested in hearing some offset data and where you got your cups widened! I'd love to be able to fit a 315 under the rear of my car!

Is your throttle body shorter, then? Did you move your motor back a bit?

My hood is ~1/8" thick in that area and it still rubs (i had to grind down my throttle body to keep it from contacting). I just don't see how a hood that's 1/16" thinner is going to make up for a full 1/2" of contact??

Edit: i'm not disagreeing with you, i'm just saying it's hard to believe the hood is the magic bullet. I spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out how to get rid of those spacers! This is what i ended up doing:
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a60...2/P1040465.jpg

Re: the oil lines, i think it's just difficult to tell the depth from the camera pictures. Eric @ Texas Performance knows what he's doing, i would have no concern driving a car he built.

Why the fram oil filter?

Altering the roll center is fine, but you should also then drop the tie rods down from the steering knuckles by the same amount so the tie rod angle and the A arm angle are parallel.

As far as the oil lines go... I wouldn't drive that car on a race track with the oil lines right there. No way. That line gets a hole in it, oil will get on the back tires. And real bad things can happen after that. (Unfortunately, I'm speaking from direct experience...)

I don't have my car here where I can measure things, but are you using the RH oil pan? If so, what's the distance between the cross member and the pan? What I'm getting at is the height of the motor mounts....



TonyG

Are you running a big wing? If so, you should do 315's no all four corners. If you can't run a big wing for what ever reason, then stay with 275 / 315 combo.



Anway, I use 315's on all four corners and it's awesome. My setup is damn near perfect.

Here's what I run:


The wheels are factory 17x9" Cup 2 wheels widened on the inside 2".

On the rear:

I use a factory 930 rear spacer to push it back out 1".

I run -2.5 degrees negative camber. With this setting, the wheels should fit with minimal fender tweaking.



On the front:

1" wider front fenders

I use a custom built 1/2" spacer

Adjust eccentrics on struts to push wheel as far from the strut as possible (like if you were trying to add positive camber)

Then with the camber plates, dial in -2.7 degrees of negative camber



Front Sway bar at 50% stiff

Rear Sway bar "disconnected"


450 lbs front spring rate

650lbs rear spring rate

Note... these spring rates are on the soft side for serious track use, but will get the job done for sure and are livable on the street.

No aero on the car other than the factory rear spoiler and a small front splitter. Can anyone widen the rear wheels? So a good local wheel straightener or ???

I'm not running the RH stuff, that may impact how I can run the oil lines. They may just be an additional inspection item for me...

Hey doc - there is no way I would run a widened wheel where the existing barrel is welded to another. Fine for a street car perhaps, but would never be on any race use car I own.

If the center is machined down and mated to new barrels that can be different, but widening aluminum wheel is just a bad idea for a race car. I would buy the proper width wheels, or have them made to your spec.

No. You have to have a shop that specializes in making custom wheels/widening wheels.

TonyG

That's what they do.

They cut off about 2" of the inside of the wheel, they true the wheel around it's outside surface, then slip fit another barrel over the existing wheel so there's over lap, then it's welded together on the inside and outside (by a machine).

The wheels are trued at the barrel and at the hub mating face as well.

The machine they use to do the job is over $500k

And they do a ton of wheel widening on race cars (especially 911 race cars). They work great and are bullet proof reliable. I've hit a lot of **** on race tracks, real fast, and I've never had one bend or not hold air.

It works great for cheaters like me :-)


TonyG


http://www.tonygarcia.org/944V8/4/DSC05617.JPG
..
http://www.tonygarcia.org/944V8/4/DSC05613.JPG
..
http://www.tonygarcia.org/944V8/4/DSC05615.JPG
..
http://www.tonygarcia.org/944V8/4/DSC05621.JPG

with all due respect Tony... you will NEVER see such a wheel on any of my race cars. Wheel Spacers either for that matter. :cheers:

I'm not a fan of spacers myself. I may just wait until I have some money saved and get a set of CCW's...

Spacers >>>> Sorry... but Porsche uses them on a ton of their cars (including their race cars). That's good enough for me.

And the modified wheel is at least as strong as the stock wheel, if not stronger.

There are a lot of big name race shops across the USA that use this company to make/modify wheels for their race cars. This is how I found about them.

There are ton of POC/PCA 911 race cars that run custom wheels done by this company. These are serious hard core racers. And there's never been a failure.

Anyway... I guess you can say that I bet my life on it...

2 1/2 years of racing on these wheels, curb hoping, pot hole hits, off road excursions at triple digit speeds... And they are still perfectly true.




TonyG

You'll need two sets!

Can't go racing with only one set of wheels.

That's a LOT of money that could be applied to actually making car go fast, stop well, and handle.


BTW, I'm having the BBS forged wheels off of my '10 Evo X widened 2" next week :-)


TonyG

Luckily I'm not racing, only doing time trials!

So what's the name of this company that widens the wheels? It's not a secret is it?

Yeah, i put a bump steer kit on to correct the tie rod ends. Mine is just a daily driver, so i try not to get too serious with it, but it does see occasional track days.

I have the RH pan (everything RH) and i actually had to cut some bracing off the mount for the R&P so that the oil pan would clear--it's low in the cradle! It actually could not get any lower.

At any rate... who knows? Yours fits! I wish i could get mine to fit without spacers! Maybe the hood is all it takes. :confused:

Not looking to debate in Docs thread so I will give this one single response - the simple fact is a proper sized originally manufactured wheel will be lighter, and potentially safer and stronger. NO QUESTION!

The fact that you are welding 2 different alloy compositions together makes it less than ideal. The result will vary with each and every "core" wheels alloy composition (forged wheel vs cast wheel, semi-solid forged, etc,etc) will have a different result. Different alloy compositions react differently to heat and welding, some alloys get brittle(similar to a work hardening effect), some weaken at welding sight, some won't weld at all.


I won't even get started on spacers. You think the aftermarket/generic spacers on your car are to the same spec/tolerance/quality as that of a factory Porsche race car? No doubt they too buy used unknown manufacturer spacers for their top dollar efforts as so many do on this forum - get real man - the spacer mentality in much of the Porsche community is downright scary.

MY race cars will never have widened wheels in this manner, repaired wheels, plugged tires, or wheel spacers just to name a few. There is the "right way" to do things and "other ways"..... I do **** the "right way" albeit more expensive in most cases.

Now let's agree to disagree on the matter and give Doc his thread back :cheers:

Tony,
Do you know the weight of the wheels as compared to a factory wheel same size? Also where are you getting yours done and for how much?

i dont understand the need for the crossmember spacers- we put Alans LS1 in with no spacers and it fit under the hood....and ive heard that an ls2 intake fits on and has more hood clearance. Maybe because we have a custom pan and custom engine mounts?

Generally have a space issue, throttle body hits, motor sits about 1/2" too high.

You were able to get around that with your motor mounts/oil pan.

It's coming together quickly, Doc. Just wait until you drive it.... :cool:

I'd strongly consider swapping your S2 trans for a 951.

If it wasn't mostly a track car I'd consider it, but I think the gearing of the S2 trans is still beneficial on the track.

I just don't see where having the longer gearing of the 951 trans is an advantage for me, I won't be able to hit more than the 158mph that I'm limited to with the S2 trans on the track...

First off, I won't debate the wheel widening thing, except to say that you'd be very surprised at the major name 911 race shops that have wheels fabricated for extremely fast 911 race cars (many of which are driven by professional drivers that you'd see racing Rolex and AMLS, etc...). These have never had a failure. And like I said... I put my life on them... literally. They are always perfectly true at each tire change, never lose air, and have never developed any cracks. (where do you think everybody gets the 11x15 911 RSR wheels from?) The machine that that does the job, does it to exacting measurements. And it's a machine that costs in excess of $500k.

And BTW... it's the same shop that does most of the concept car wheels for the major OEM's (including Porsche).


As far as the spacers go.... The rear spacers are factory Porsche 930 spacers. This is what came on 930's from the factory. Not only did Porsche use spacers there, but they have used them on a TON of factory Porsches.

The fronts are custom made which are hub centric and wheel centric, machined out of a piece of billet aluminum. In fact you can see the billet on my web page that the spacers were cut & machined out of. These were made specifically to fit my Racers Edge billet hubs to the factory 9x17 Cup 2 rim and were machined to exacting specifications.

So please don't equate the spacers I use with some generic junk on the market. Big difference.


So you can spend 12K on two sets of Forged wheels to race on. Or you can widen some forged factory Porsche wheels for <$1k per set and spend the money you saved on 4 sets of Hoosier Slicks.

:evilgrin:


TonyG

There is no factory 11" wide Cup 2 wheel to compare it to.


TonyG

Amen....

You'll wish you had done it years ago!


TonyG

That would depend on the track.


I have tracks that I race on where I am well over 160mph.

Plus the car will be faster if you keep it in its TQ peak the longest. That's why the 951 has the gear ratios it has.

Your LS2 is not a peaky high reving engine. It's a engine with a wide fat TQ curve which is by far better suited to the wide ratios of the 951 box.

Sometimes reving out quickly and shifting a lot is not the fastest way around the track....


TonyG

So what's the name of the shop that widens the wheels? Is it a secret or are you going to tell us? :)

Local tracks I doubt I'll get over 150mph on. At Miller I probably can.

If I find someone with an AOR in good shape that wants to trade I'd probably do it. However, I'm not in a rush to get rid of my perfect S2 LSD box for a "regular" 951 box of unknown provenance.

Here's his contact info (I can't remember the exact name of the company because I didn't store it in my phone, but I'll give you his name and his number).

Call:

Eric at 626.358.6413 begin_of_the_skype_highlightingStrekStrekStrekStrekStrekStrekStrekStrekS trekStrekStrekStrekStrekStrek626.358.6413StrekStrekStrekStrekStrekStreke nd_of_the_skype_highlighting

Address:

111 North Mertle Ave
Monrovia, CA

And I don't know about your local tracks... but at all of mine, I can easily get past 150mph on all of them.



TonyG

Straights at my local tracks aren't that long. I'll run the S2 tranny first and see what I think. If I run out of gearing or it's obvious I need taller gearing than I'll see if I can find someone with an AOR box in good shape who wants to trade for my S2 box.

Thanks for the phone #, I'll give them a call...

Link to his site, Eric Vaughn Machine.

Link doesn't work....

Link works for me.

Yep works for me on the desktop, wouldn't on my phone for some reason.

Looks like hanging on to that extra set of front Cup 2's was a good idea. Now I can send them out to get widened and not screw with the 4 17x9's I currently have.

Tony, what do you think about running a 17x10? I know I can fit that without spacers with the stock ET55 offset. I can run a 295 on that wheel easily. Think I could fit a 17x11 without spacers?

What offset and width spacer did you end up on your 17x11's? I assume you also replaced the rear wheel studs with longer ones...

I'm a bit confused here. For each wheel widened do they need another wheel to get the donor amount of rim to add?

Do we think that they could do Enkei type 1 piece spun cast wheels?

http://www.enkei.com/nt03m.html#

In reading their site it sound like they slice up the wheels you send them, then weld in barrel material meant for a multi piece wheel.

So no, they're not taking 4 wheels to make 2...

They cut off part of the original wheel and discard it. They then machine down the original wheel so that a "donor" barrel can be fit over the original wheel forming an "over lap".

Its then trued and welded together on the inside and outside of the wheel.


Your "Front Cup 2" 17x7 wheels are not the same offset as the factory 17x9 wheels. Given this , I'm not sure you can actually have enough "meat" on them to cut them up, and have enough to weld a barrel onto.

In the case of a 17x7 wheel, you're talking about cutting it down 2" before welding on a 6+ " barrel in order to net 11" wheel. Seems excessive.

Eric probably won't do that.

The right way is to use a 17x9 wheel to widen. But you'd have to ask him. He's the expert, not me.

TonyG

It runs!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGdUE...layer_embedded

sweet!!!

Wow, that's bad ass.:rockon:

Great work :thumbup:

Getting close.

awesome. i look forward to seeing you at the track......

I am very afraid to see this car. It could cost me a lot of money.

Congrats Doc!

Enjoy the first drive because you'll never forget it :evilgrin:

Well, all the little loose ends were completed today. What remains to be done is to fabricate the A/C lines, charge the system with r134a and make sure it works and tune the car.

The car was supposed to be tuned today but the tuner blew off my shop. Hopefully the guy gets his $hit together and makes the his scheduled appointment tomorrow.

Hey congrats... looks good.

Did you drive it yet?


TonyG

Hopefully you race it. Here's what it it will do to some very fast cars if you set it up right.

Here's a clip from the start of my last POC race. Qualified 13th out of 29 at Calspeedway Roval in the Red Run Group.... mu ha ha... .damn... nothin' like a V8 baby...

http://www.tonygarcia.org/poc.redgro...dway.roval.wmv

TonyG

Here are the final pics. Haven't been able to drive the car yet as it's still at the shop in Texas. I definitely will be tracking the car, competing in NASA time trials, probably TTS.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...lphotos002.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...lphotos004.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...lphotos005.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...lphotos007.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...lphotos006.jpg

Sweet!

Did you manage to tuck a brake booster in there?

You drug those guys hard on the green! :cheers:

Nope, brakes are set up as a hydroboost, so they're boosted off the power steering pump.

Which brake master cylinder are you using?

And I would get the RH throttle cable. That cable is way too long and is dangerous. It's got too many long bends and will wear through the inside coating and get sticky.


Also, if you're running on the track (hopefully you have a baffled/trap doored oil pan and external oil cooler with thermostat), you will need a catch can (see pics on my site) with the LS1 crank case breather style setup.

Other than that, the install looks good. congrats. you're gonna love it.


TonyG

Lookin good Doc! And damn, that was a pretty quick swap :thumbup:

So do you know the final bill?

Master cylinder is from a Ford Mustang I believe. Yes to the baffled/trap door oil pan and external oil cooler with thermostat. You can see them in some of the pics I've posted. I didn't go with a front mounted oil cooler like you, but still fit a fairly substantial oil cooler on the car.

Where are the pictures of your dual catch cans?

Are power steering and hydrobooster connected in line?
I have 964/993 hydrobooster system which i am going to use some day. Similar one factory used with 968 Turbo RS installations.

Your build up is just great, hope our regulations give the same possibility some day.

Not sure about how they're routed Olli. I didn't know there was a factory hydroboost setup available. Do you have pictures and part #'s?

Is it very expensive and hard to find/buy?

The answer is yes.

The high pressure line from the power steering pump goes straight to the hydra boost.

From the hydra boost, there are two lines. A return (low pressure) to the fluid reservoir and a high pressure to the power steering rack.


FYI, using the 965/993 tt hydra boost is different. It's an electrically powered pump. Also, unless you are going to use a in-cockpit adjustable rear brake bias valve, or are going to juggle the brake caliper piston sizes all around.... the master cylinder front/rear piston size is all wrong. It's probably a 25mm/25mm (or very close to that). 944's don't have the engine weight on the back, so they always use a 25%ish smaller rear piston.


TonyG

I'd find out exactly which one it is.

Also, you are most likely using the factory rear bias valve. However, I'm not sure how well that will work due to the master cylinder probably having a much larger rear piston than the 951 master cylinder.

Be careful until you get the feel of it.


TonyG

You have a hydraboost installed. That's the hydralic brake booster which is used because there is no physical room for the vacuum brake booster that came with the car.

It's the thing between your fire wall and your brake master cylinder. It's got the black cylinder hanging off of it.


TonyG

Yes, I know I have a hydro boost, I'm just curious about the OEM parts. I like the idea of using OEM parts whenever possible. You've answered my questions there though, doesn't sound like it's a viable, bolt in option.

I'll definitely find out what car/size master cylinder is being used and tip toe around with the car some to see what it does. I may have to install an adjustable proportioning valve...

Sorry... it sounded like you didn't understand what that term was.

Anyway, if you use a rear proportioning valve, you must take out the factory proportioning valve, which in your case... a car with ABS, is located at the ABS pump, which is located behind the passenger front wheel (you take the wheel and inner fender well out to access).

Oh yeah... the hydraboost setup you're using is OEM on on some cars/trucks in various configurations.

TonyG

Thanks Tony! You've been an immeasurable help, I appreciate your advice and time!

I pretty much copied your intake and exhaust and a few other things you've done...

My Audi S4 has hydroboosted brakes, but is a bit more complicated and cumbersome. I don't think it would've fit in the space alloted...

The hydroboost is probably from a Mustang. I'm not sure exactly what size master cylinder they use, but i believe it's about 3/4".

I agree that the throttle cable could stand to be shortened, but getting anything from RH is not the answer. All you have to do is pull the cable back through, wrap the braided line tightly in masking tape where you want to cut, cut carefully with a dremel, and re-assemble (you'll have to cut the cable too, but that's the last step once you figure out the necessary length). I have the same cable and it's been great.

I saw intake and exhaust. Looks good. What cam are you using? If it's close to mine, I could map out your ECU for free if you want to send it to me.


TonyG

I have the Thunder Racing 224 cam. The tuner is there now plunking away at his laptop with the car. They're getting the base tune done on the street, then the car will hit the dyno later today for the fine tuning.

Impressive. Quite the project!

I don't think the actual hydraboost unit is from a Mustang. I think just the master cylinder is.

Most of the late Mustang master cylinders have bigger bores than 3/4". Plus they are typically the same size bore front / rear. The 944 uses about a 25% larger front bore than the rear.

Not sure what you have against Renegade Hybrids. But the throttle cable I have from them is the correct size as delivered. It doesn't really matter how it gets done though... that cable is way too long and needs to be shortened.

TonyG

Yeah.. that cam is close enough to use my tune. I could have saved you a bunch of money. I should have thought to offer that sooner. Sorry.....

TonyG

I'm pretty sure the hydroboost is from a Mustang. I purchased my Mustang hydroboost a few weeks ago and it's just hanging around in my garage waiting for an install (i'll probably do it over the winter when the car is parked due to snow). Eric (guy doing the install) has done a few of these setups with the Mustang hydroboost, that's why i picked up mine. Yours looks to be the same setup, it just has a different reservoir color...

As for what i have against RH:

• They forcefully took over our message board.
• They threatened people and lied about having patents.
• Their parts are far from perfect--almost every part i bought from them had a "known issue" or required some slight modification to fit.
• They take ideas from people on the forums, claim them as their own, and then tell everyone who calls that "those people on the forums don't know what they're talking about".
• They charge too much for their kit.
• ....

But, let's not turn this into a thread about RH. :to_order:

Edit: The bore size on my '04 hydroboost m/c is 1.062"

I talked to Eric Vaughn today, he said widening the 17x7 Cup 2's to 17x11 wouldn't be a problem.

Hydraboost Bore... OK.. that's about what I figured if it was a late Mustang master cylinder. The factory bias valve will be a problem as it gives you full pressure up to x amount where it crosses over.... and that means a lot more brake pressure to the rear in initial brake application. Probably gonna be an issue. Using a rear brake proportioning valve (like I have) on the street is not a great solution either. You should look around for any master cylinder, with the same bolt pattern, that has the correct bore proportions.


As far as Renegade Hybrids... don't know what to say.... I have my own opinions on their message board and what went down there, but that doesn't affect my opinion of their kit. I had zero problems with my install and it's been bullet proof for almost 5 years on the track. That's saying a lot.

With respect to their price... I feel it's worth it. I"m busy and my time is worth a lot. To me, it's not worth piecing together a kit. Plus I really like the fact that their kit has a factory grade 2-piece bell housing and I really like their oil pan for track use.

Anyway, to each his own. It's just nice to see a lot more 944's with LSx engines in them.

TonyG

That's fine, but just know that the offset may not be the same after the weels are widened (the same as mine) thus the spacers might be different thicknesses when it's all said and done.

I don't know if the offset from the hub face to the outside lip is the same in 17x7 wheels vs 17x9 wheels.

Don't forget to get 1" longer wheel studs and steel lug nuts.


TonyG

Pretty sure the offset on both front and rear of the Cup 2's is ET55. I'll check when I get home.

I have the bellhousing from QT. I looked into the 2 piece bellhousing, which definitely makes access easier, but what swayed me to QT was it had an integral scatter shield.

That's something I need to run at Bonneville, so I figured that's the way I'd go.

I'll have to get the car up here and see how it acts, then I'll figure something out for the brakes.

Ordered the catch can today, it's made by a company local to me specifically for LS motors. Comes with a bracket that attaches to the two unused threaded holes on the front side of the passenger head. I used it on my supercharged BMW and it was great. Here's a pic...

http://eliteengineeringusa.com/CC_Picture.jpg

Base tune is done. Fine tuning on the dyno tomorrow, along with installing the above pictured catch can and the A/C lines.

Then it's all wrapped up and barring any problems, I should have it by Friday.

The hood clears with the fuel rail covers?

Hey...

Look at this! Yeah BABY

Brand new Z06 LS6 from GM Performance with 12 month / 12,000 mile factory warranty! :-)

Just arrived today. Going in next week. I'm gonna have to get a new license plate!

Anyway, this thing with my intake, cam, exhaust, tune, should make close to 410RWHP on 91 octane.

http://www.tonygarcia.org/944V8/new..../new.LS6.1.gif

Right, so say they are both 55mm offset. The 9” wheel will be 25mm further from the center line in both directions than the 7” wheel. So its 25mm further out to the fender and closer to the inner wheel well than the 7” wheel with a 55et offset. Tony’s original 9 et55 wheel is now 11 et80 and 50mm closer to the inner wheel well structure. A 7 et55 wheel will become 11 et106 and be 102mm closer to the inner wheel well structure. I’m sure Eric can advise on the spacer issue.

Lookin great Doc!:rockon:

Yikes. That means around a 40mm spacer, which is gargantuan. Hmmm, I'm not sure I like that...

HOLY SH!T. I want a ride in this thing the moment it's f*$%ing complete!

Why not just get a set of MY02 Carrera Lightweights? 18X10, proper offset, lighter than the Cup II's, made by BBS, and more tire choices than a 17" wheel.

Can I run those front and rear? I currently run 17x9 Cup 2's with 275's. I want to have a 275 up front and either a 295 or 305 in the rear...

Na....

You want to run a 275 / 315 if you're not running a big wing in the back.

That's the setup.

To do that you need at least a 9" wheel in the front and an 11" wheel in the back.


TonyG

Good luck with 315's wthout cutting up the wells.

Not a problem with a track alignment and the proper offset. The fenders only need a little rolling.

I run 315's on all 4 corners (the front fenders are 1" wider than stock).



TonyG

Weight distirbution?
 

Sorry if this has been asked and answered before. What about weight distribution?

This would be most interesting for us considering the same swap. No point adding a better engine if it gets nose heavy and ruins the perfect balance of the car.

Its not an issue. LS1 is rougly 100-200 lbs more. No issue

Worst case scenario of saving 200lbs in front is an issue for me. Even saving 100 lbs will be very expensive if at all possible.

Don't even think the LS1 is 100lbs more?

Its a viable solution that wont mess up the 50/50 split. End of discussion.

Check out Tony Garcia's for sale thread and decide for yourself if his is a 50/50 split. He has the corner balance and front/rear weights in the thread! That's at least a factual example of one car.

https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...s6-engine.html

At 2600 lbs his car has been modified slightly. i doubt with all the stock interior and with LS engine that its really a big difference

Wow, WRONG information!

The LS motor weighs 50-60 lbs LESS than the stock Turbo motor and accessories (intercooler, piping, etc)

Balance isn't affected in a negative way at all.

Hmm. Maybe i was thinking LT

LS is an all aluminum motor. The 5.3 liter truck engine has the iron block and weighs more...

Looking at TonyG's picture of the weight, it has 169 lbs more in front. His car is heavily modified, and it really does not apply to the average 951.

So does anyone actually have any proof that the car's weight distribution is unaffected? All I read is a lot of statements without any evidence.

Edit: No offence intended. It's just that I won't put in an LS1 assuming that weight distribution is OK, just because some people at at board wrote it would be so.

I'll weigh my car when I get it home on the corner weight scales. LS weighs less

One thing you have to remember is that fuel weight (which can vary from 0lbs to around 135lbs) is directly over the rear tires. Thus if I were to add 20 gallons of gas to the car, the difference between the front/rear weight bias would be much less.

TonyG

Suppose you wanted to install the basic LS engine and manage to get by with its plain Jane horsepower, simplicity and reliability being the priority.

Further suppose you just keep the basically stock suspension and car, i.e., wanted only plug and play LS engine.

Ballpark, what would that weigh and cost, for the LS engine and conversion kit?

Here are my weights for comparison. LS1, full interior minus rear seat, roughly half tank of gas.

Total: 2950

LF - 780 lbs
RF - 741 lbs

LR - 690 lbs
RR - 748 lbs

How does that compare to a stock turbo?

Dunno, but when I weighed my stock 951 on highway truck scales with ~1/2 tank fuel, pretty sure it was about ~3,000 lbs. with rear seat, so pretty close to your car after LS1 and no rear seat.

How much power and torque does your LS1 make?

Ballpark cost?

Fuel efficiency vs. turbo?

Noise?

Since you're in Washington, why don't you go drive Squire's car. He'll let you take it for a spin and answer all of your questions.

https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ferrerid=16485

I got a LS1 out of a 2004 GTO it is rated 350 crank HP/350lbFt IIRC. The LS1 in a corvette was slightly more and the one out of a TA was less. It depends on the car it came from. They have slight differences with intakes, some LS1's run LS6 intakes, or have a true dual exhaust making that car make more HP. It is easy to get some HP with intake, exhaust and tune just like anything else.
Fuel efficiency should be about the same as the car it came out of. The last V8 motor I had got better mileage than the V6twin turbo car that replaced it.
Cost is relative. The actual bare bones replacement DIY isn't that bad. It's all the little while you are in there stuff that kill the budget. My budget has been thrown out. What started as just replace the motor has turned into a new interior and suspension rebuild. The motor still isn't in there, but that is another story.

I just bought a brand new Z06 LS6 long block with warranty for $3100!

Rated at 405Hp in a Corvette will make about 410RWHP and about 380RWTQ with my cam/headers/exhaust/tune that I'm using on my current LS1.

TonyG

Then the weight distribution is equal to my basically stock 951. Finally some hard facts, thanks! :cheers:

Source?

Steve Fairchild
Dahmer Powertrain

2301 N.E. Independence Ave.
Lee's Summit, Mo. 64064

(800)841-6060



TonyG

Hey that's 3 miles from where I live, whats the chances!

Ok

I got you the good deal on the engine. And it's right there to pick up. Now all you need to do is to put it in!


TonyG

:rolleyes:My 86 with half tank of gas, full interior
Actual car weight: 3145
Test weight with 220 lb. driver: 3365

LF 864
RF 862

LR 847
RR791

Car and driver need to go on a diet :eek:

Maybe it's time to get rid of the boat anchor of an engine and go for an LS.

update!!! give it to me now... noooowwww I say

Well, had a little set back last Wednesday. The U joint on the steering shaft broke. So that got replaced and the steering shaft repaired. Unfortunately that meant that the car wouldn't be ready for the track weekend.

So they slowed down a little, mounted the catch can, got the AC lines done and the AC charged. The car should've hit the dyno today for final tuning.

I haven't heard from the shop yet, when I do I'll post up the results. Barring any other weird failures I should have the car this weekend...

Doc- how much does this project run from the shop? I know how much it would cost me to do it, roughly anyway but I know I want this in the future so checking out the options.

Call Eric at Texas Performance Concepts....It depends on options...Mine is with him now!

As far as the cost goes....

I can do the job for $5k PLUS the cost of the conversion kit, the engine, the exhaust system past the headers, and the ECU.

All is w/o heating & A/C. Heating and A/C costs a bit more.

It ain't dirt cheap, but I can do the job fast (like 2 weeks if you have the engine and ecu).

I can supply you a brand new (with warranty) LS6 for $3,250.00 plus the cost of the intake manifold, throttle body, fuel rails, and injectors.

Not trying to push business. It's just another price point/option if you're interested.

TonyG

Yeah, but crate engines don't come with wiring harnesses, accessories, bracketry, oil cooler, etc, etc.

As much as I wanted a brand new crate motor, it didn't make sense since I needed everything else. I got a Camaro SS motor with everything needed for the swap. If something happens to this motor I'll definitely replace it with a crate motor though...

Not sure what you're talking about, but I had a SS Camaro motor... and it didn't come with an oil cooler, or a oil cooler thermostat.

Plus the power steering pump can't be used for track use, and the oil pan won't work as well, nor will the stock wiring harness.

That leaves the water pump, idler, and alternator from the Camaro.

Not trying to sell you on a crate engine. Just pointing out what was actually used from my original Camaro LS1 engine swap.


TonyG

If you LS convert are in need - have a set of stock injectors from a 2001 Z06 with under 20K miles





Are you giddy as a school girl yet Doc - bet you can hardly wait

Plus the brackets, engine wiring harness, PCM, fuel injectors, etc, etc. While there's some stuff you don't reuse, there's more that you do that it makes sense to pick up a used, complete motor vs buying a crate motor.

When I was looking for my motor many of the junkyards had the motor but not the wiring harness. Finding a wiring harness was difficult and I thought I was going to have to get one seperately along with a PCM for an additional $500+. Luckily I was able to find a complete car so I got everything I needed..

I'm very excited about getting the car! Heard that the dyno guys flaked out yesterday, now the appointment is for Wednesday for the fine tuning. AC will be completed today.

Car was driven 100+ miles this past weekend without any issues, so as soon as the AC and fine tuning are completed, I should have the car.

ahhhhhh, pics???? just sayin...on and one more plug, thank goodness the JAB Car is back in business finally!!!!! Sorry selfish plug, but it's been two years since track time but Hallett is coming this weekend. So park this one away: if you have an upper tap and you've changed lifters TWICE, check the LARGE injector o-rings!!!! No leak but if they make contact with the manifold, big click, Huge!!

Congrats on the car; did I mention pics?

See post 311 for the most up to date pics. Once I get the car home I'll post more pics of the entire car...

Car is on its way home! It'll arrive late tonight, so I'll get it tomorrow morning. I can't wait!

It didn't quite make the power I expected, but there is a silver lining in that, which is I can run in TTA vs TTS. So my competition won't be C6 Z06's, GT3's, extremely modded STI's and EVO's, etc. I can also remove about 200lbs from the car, so I'll be getting a fiberglass hood, doing a lightweight battery, taking out the carpet in the hatch and back seat area, running less fuel, etc.

I'll post pics and impressions this weekend.

What was the power?

how much clearance do you have either side of the engine to the body? concerned with strut tower clearance the most

So where's the dyno sheet?

What were the numbers?

TonyG

Don't have the car yet, I imagine the dyno sheet is in it. I don't know how much torque it made, but it made 338rwhp. So quite a bit less than I was expecting. It does have pretty old fuel in it, plan is to burn all the fuel, put in fresh and take it to the local dyno and see what it does.

For TTA I can make 348rwhp and weigh 3050 lbs comp weight. So that'll let me do the fiberglass hood, lightweight battery, etc...

OK... So lets go through this because something is off.

Which heads do you have on the LS1?

Which cam do you have and what are the specs (LSA, duration at .050")

Stock throttle body?

Which intake manifold do you have (is it a LS1 or LS6 intake?)

What year is the engine?

What size are the header primaries, and what size is the exhaust system?

What type of dyno is it? (example: Mustang, dynojet 248C, etc...)


Yeah... from memory it's a cammed LS1 with headers and exhaust. It should make more power for sure. Something is off.




TonyG

It's a '02 LS1 SS motor with the LS6 intake manifold and throttle body. It has whatever heads came stock on the '02 SS motor, 241's I think.

Dual 2.5" exhaust with cats leading into a dual inlet/outlet magnaflow exhaust. Straight shot intake like yours. Shorty headers, not sure of the primary sizes.

Thunder Racing 224 cam, .563/.563 with 112 or 114 lobe seperation. They have a dyno on their website showing 398rwhp with this cam and very similar supporting mods with the exception that they were running long tube headers...

Dynojet dyno, probably a 248C.

I agree that something is off, I'm not sure what. The builder is very competent and swears the car is running extremely well and the motor has good compression.

Do you think the cam is mis timed? That's really the only thing I can think of that would cause a 50-60rwhp difference.

I'd be interested to see the ECU mapping. I see that you're not running a MAF, so it must be mapped alpha n.

Assuming the engine has good leak-down on all cylinders, it's either a fueling, ignition timing, and/or cam timing issue.

No matter, 348RWHP is way low for that engine.

Can you check the intake manifold to see if it's a LS1 or LS6? That will make a good 15RWHP difference. The LS1's have a "V" on the bottom. The LS6's are flat.

Did you install the "H" pipe in the exhaust?

Plus.... the cats will cost you some power for sure. Maybe 10-15RWHP depending on the design.


TonyG

I am running the stock MAF, header primaries are 1 3/4. Cam is actually a Comp Cam, specs are:

part number TR224-14
cam specs int exh
adv dur 274 274
dur@.50 224 224
lobe sep: 114.0
Valve lift: .564 .564


Have to get under the car but I'm pretty sure there's an "X" in it, I'll check to see if it has the LS6 intake, it should as it was an "SS" motor.

Yeah, I figured with the cats I'd put down somewhere near 375rwhp or so.

your car is also running full emissions correct? EGR, smog pump, cats, a/c etc? That could account for 20 hp or so

Yep, high flow cats, smog pump, with the LS6 stuff there's no EGR. I do have A/C and the like...

ask Eric also to bypass the coolant lines to your throttle body. There are "free HP" mods for the LS1 that I implemented on my truck of which some can help your SS motor.

Car is home! Sitting in my garage, so I'll take a peek to see if there are coolant lines running to the t-body...

I wouldn't worry about it, it'll get sorted out once you get it. Old gas, maybe you've got a plugged injector, the plugs got fouled during tuning, who knows. The hard part is done, the rest is just piddly stuff.

High-flow cats will cost you only a few horsepower (i've seen the dynos)

Yep, car is in my garage now. I also need to look into the AEM wide band gauge, it's only reading 14.8 constantly, so something there isn't hooked up right.

That's my experience with cats too, they maybe take away 5hp or so.