Manual steering thoughts
04-19-2010, 06:43 PM
#46
Burning Brakes
I can't see how manual steering is faster around a track, and it only make your car less manageable on the street. Rebuild/get a quality rebuilt rack and it should be good for years.
04-19-2010, 07:25 PM
#47
Race Director
If you can't feel what the front tires are doing you cannot push them 100% and keep them there. Going fast is always about managing the grip of the tires and undstand when you have grip when you don't . You drive into a corner and the grip level is never 100% the same. So each time in you need to traction sense what the car is doing. With greater feedback you can respone to these changes and get close to use 100% of the availble grip.
That is what makes you faster. Now alot of this also personal prefernce as they real is for the driver to sense what the traction level is. One feedback method is through the steering wheel. It is not the only one.
That is what makes you faster. Now alot of this also personal prefernce as they real is for the driver to sense what the traction level is. One feedback method is through the steering wheel. It is not the only one.
04-19-2010, 11:07 PM
#48
If you can't feel what the front tires are doing you cannot push them 100% and keep them there. Going fast is always about managing the grip of the tires and undstand when you have grip when you don't . You drive into a corner and the grip level is never 100% the same. So each time in you need to traction sense what the car is doing. With greater feedback you can respone to these changes and get close to use 100% of the availble grip.
That is what makes you faster. Now alot of this also personal prefernce as they real is for the driver to sense what the traction level is. One feedback method is through the steering wheel. It is not the only one.
That is what makes you faster. Now alot of this also personal prefernce as they real is for the driver to sense what the traction level is. One feedback method is through the steering wheel. It is not the only one.
04-20-2010, 12:57 AM
#49
Drifting
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my early experience as well. I felt things I just did not with power steering. That said if my class did not mandate it I would probably run power!
04-20-2010, 01:54 AM
#50
Three Wheelin'
One advantage of power steer is that you can use some fairly radical suspension and steering geometry (castor/KPI/offset/trail) to optimise tire grip without worrying so much about the driver's ability to turn the wheel.
This is what makes a power steer car potentially faster than a manual steer car. Tires are more valuable than drivers!
If your suspension geometry and tire choice is constrained by class rules, however, manual steer is probably the way to go.
Mike
This is what makes a power steer car potentially faster than a manual steer car. Tires are more valuable than drivers!
If your suspension geometry and tire choice is constrained by class rules, however, manual steer is probably the way to go.
Mike
04-20-2010, 02:52 AM
#51
Rennlist Junkie Forever
3 different drivers, back-to-back testing (one driver a seasoned pro in the Rolex & AMLS series).... all of us were almost exactly 1 second slower around WSIR than the each respective previous session with power steering. And on WSIR 1 second is an eternity in a fast car....
So it's clearly not driver specific. And it's not my opinion. Power steering is faster around a track.
The lap times for all of us tell the story. This was pure back-to-back testing with 3 different drivers.
In fact... one of the drivers races a 951 with manual steering. After driving my car (in the above test) he immediately realized that power steering was faster and went back to power steering.
Just stating the facts....
TonyG
So it's clearly not driver specific. And it's not my opinion. Power steering is faster around a track.
The lap times for all of us tell the story. This was pure back-to-back testing with 3 different drivers.
In fact... one of the drivers races a 951 with manual steering. After driving my car (in the above test) he immediately realized that power steering was faster and went back to power steering.
Just stating the facts....
TonyG
Actually, it's all about track position.
I think lap time variance between using power vs manual steering is a function of specific driver rather than the steering type itself. In other words a specific driver, due to personal ability, experience, or preference, might feel more comfortable "on edge" with one type of steering over another. That comfort level could very well then translate into quicker lap times. So if someone has the ability/experience/preference for one over the other, then it will be reflected in their lap times.
Steering type alone is not a variable in braking force, hp or torque, mechanical grip, or aero. The physics applied to braking/power/grip are not affected by power vs manual steering. The car doesn't care if it has power vs manual steering. The only variable is the input necessary from the driver, which is highly subjective. So if you remove the driver from the equation, power vs manual steering would have no effect on lap times.
To state that a car with manual steering (or power steering) is "faster" is drawing a false conclusion that it is the steering type, rather than the driver, that is the resultant factor.
...IMHO of course.
I think lap time variance between using power vs manual steering is a function of specific driver rather than the steering type itself. In other words a specific driver, due to personal ability, experience, or preference, might feel more comfortable "on edge" with one type of steering over another. That comfort level could very well then translate into quicker lap times. So if someone has the ability/experience/preference for one over the other, then it will be reflected in their lap times.
Steering type alone is not a variable in braking force, hp or torque, mechanical grip, or aero. The physics applied to braking/power/grip are not affected by power vs manual steering. The car doesn't care if it has power vs manual steering. The only variable is the input necessary from the driver, which is highly subjective. So if you remove the driver from the equation, power vs manual steering would have no effect on lap times.
To state that a car with manual steering (or power steering) is "faster" is drawing a false conclusion that it is the steering type, rather than the driver, that is the resultant factor.
...IMHO of course.
04-20-2010, 10:33 AM
#53
Drifting
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3 different drivers, back-to-back testing (one driver a seasoned pro in the Rolex & AMLS series).... all of us were almost exactly 1 second slower around WSIR than the each respective previous session with power steering. And on WSIR 1 second is an eternity in a fast car....
So it's clearly not driver specific. And it's not my opinion. Power steering is faster around a track.
The lap times for all of us tell the story. This was pure back-to-back testing with 3 different drivers.
In fact... one of the drivers races a 951 with manual steering. After driving my car (in the above test) he immediately realized that power steering was faster and went back to power steering.
Just stating the facts....
TonyG
So it's clearly not driver specific. And it's not my opinion. Power steering is faster around a track.
The lap times for all of us tell the story. This was pure back-to-back testing with 3 different drivers.
In fact... one of the drivers races a 951 with manual steering. After driving my car (in the above test) he immediately realized that power steering was faster and went back to power steering.
Just stating the facts....
TonyG
Not questioning your results but I was wondering how you did the back to back test? Did you remove replace the rack in the same day and repeat? Did this not give you set up issues?
04-20-2010, 10:48 AM
#54
Rennlist Junkie Forever
TonyG
04-20-2010, 12:19 PM
#55
Race Director
3 different drivers, back-to-back testing (one driver a seasoned pro in the Rolex & AMLS series).... all of us were almost exactly 1 second slower around WSIR than the each respective previous session with power steering. And on WSIR 1 second is an eternity in a fast car.......
TonyG
TonyG
Was the wheel harder to turn and the extra force causing problems? Or was it the slower ratio causing a little less steering input than needed. I assume you were one of the guys to drive it.
Frankly when I look at willow. Turn 1 is fast long corner. Turn 2 is fast long corner. Turn 3 is shortish corner for willow. Turn 4 is lift & flick and turn 5 is real turn. Turn 7 not even a turn and turn 8 and 9 are all about balance and feel. Not alot of side to side or quick steering motions needed.
BTW... I still think that what works best on 225 wide 2600lbs car may not translate ot the 275 width 2800lbs car.
04-20-2010, 07:29 PM
#56
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Are you running a 944 spec car? (based on your avatar pic...) Because if that's so we're not even driving the same car and we might as well be talking about different tracks...
I have a 400RWHP 2600lbs big rubber car. You have a 135RWHP similar weight small tire car. And I don't think you're allowed to run a LSD in 944 Spec either which kills your ability to trail brake, etc...
Our speeds are dramatically different on every part of that track.
Do 145mph around turn 8 into 9 exiting 9 at almost 110mph... or do (enter at over 100mph) 105mph+ around turn 2 with big rubber. Do that for 20 laps and see how your arms feel. Then you'll know why you want power steering.
Yeah... you're trying to not lose speed... I'm trying to hang on for dear life... :-)
TonyG
I have a 400RWHP 2600lbs big rubber car. You have a 135RWHP similar weight small tire car. And I don't think you're allowed to run a LSD in 944 Spec either which kills your ability to trail brake, etc...
Our speeds are dramatically different on every part of that track.
Do 145mph around turn 8 into 9 exiting 9 at almost 110mph... or do (enter at over 100mph) 105mph+ around turn 2 with big rubber. Do that for 20 laps and see how your arms feel. Then you'll know why you want power steering.
Yeah... you're trying to not lose speed... I'm trying to hang on for dear life... :-)
TonyG
Tony I have driven willow springs. That track only has 8 turns. However they are longer turns with not alot of tossing the car. That seems like it would better to have the feedback. I am trying to understand why manual was slower as I don't doubt the data.
Was the wheel harder to turn and the extra force causing problems? Or was it the slower ratio causing a little less steering input than needed. I assume you were one of the guys to drive it.
Frankly when I look at willow. Turn 1 is fast long corner. Turn 2 is fast long corner. Turn 3 is shortish corner for willow. Turn 4 is lift & flick and turn 5 is real turn. Turn 7 not even a turn and turn 8 and 9 are all about balance and feel. Not alot of side to side or quick steering motions needed.
BTW... I still think that what works best on 225 wide 2600lbs car may not translate ot the 275 width 2800lbs car.
Was the wheel harder to turn and the extra force causing problems? Or was it the slower ratio causing a little less steering input than needed. I assume you were one of the guys to drive it.
Frankly when I look at willow. Turn 1 is fast long corner. Turn 2 is fast long corner. Turn 3 is shortish corner for willow. Turn 4 is lift & flick and turn 5 is real turn. Turn 7 not even a turn and turn 8 and 9 are all about balance and feel. Not alot of side to side or quick steering motions needed.
BTW... I still think that what works best on 225 wide 2600lbs car may not translate ot the 275 width 2800lbs car.
04-20-2010, 07:47 PM
#57
Race Director
Are you running a 944 spec car? (based on your avatar pic...) Because if that's so we're not even driving the same car and we might as well be talking about different tracks...
I have a 400RWHP 2600lbs big rubber car. You have a 135RWHP similar weight small tire car. And I don't think you're allowed to run a LSD in 944 Spec either which kills your ability to trail brake, etc...
Our speeds are dramatically different on every part of that track.
Do 145mph around turn 8 into 9 exiting 9 at almost 110mph... or do (enter at over 100mph) 105mph+ around turn 2 with big rubber. Do that for 20 laps and see how your arms feel. Then you'll know why you want power steering.
Yeah... you're trying to not lose speed... I'm trying to hang on for dear life... :-)
TonyG
I have a 400RWHP 2600lbs big rubber car. You have a 135RWHP similar weight small tire car. And I don't think you're allowed to run a LSD in 944 Spec either which kills your ability to trail brake, etc...
Our speeds are dramatically different on every part of that track.
Do 145mph around turn 8 into 9 exiting 9 at almost 110mph... or do (enter at over 100mph) 105mph+ around turn 2 with big rubber. Do that for 20 laps and see how your arms feel. Then you'll know why you want power steering.
Yeah... you're trying to not lose speed... I'm trying to hang on for dear life... :-)
TonyG
Yes we have a different cars and LSD is allowed in 944 spec and I trail brake all the even with an open diff.
However so does it come down to the extra force required to turn the car? And that extra force makes it hard to be delicate and precise? Or is steering ratio too slow?
04-20-2010, 08:05 PM
#58
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Yes we have a different cars and LSD is allowed in 944 spec and I trail brake all the even with an open diff.
However so does it come down to the extra force required to turn the car? And that extra force makes it hard to be delicate and precise? Or is steering ratio too slow?
However so does it come down to the extra force required to turn the car? And that extra force makes it hard to be delicate and precise? Or is steering ratio too slow?
It's the force required to turn the wheel but more so the force necessary to keep the wheel where you want it. There are tremendous forces trying jerk the wheel out of your hands... which requires a lot of strength to counter that. This is what slows you down and throws your timing off just that tiny bit here and there. You lose a lot of "smoothness" in your driving style.
TonyG
04-21-2010, 01:21 AM
#59
Burning Brakes
I've autocrossed my car both with and without power steering. Once you are used to the manual rack, it's not that bad (except in extremely sharp corners - 1st gear etc.). One thing that no one has mentioned so far is the ability to recover the car when you're about to spin. Power rack definitely has the advantage there. Manual rack does have better feel. Tires make a big difference for a manual rack. My new tires have a softer sidewall; it actually made it much easier to turn the wheel. I'm guessing sidewall stiffness would have similar effects for those of you using > 15" rims too.
That said, I've never done road courses. Just autox and daily driving...
That said, I've never done road courses. Just autox and daily driving...
04-21-2010, 11:44 AM
#60
Race Director
It's the force required to turn the wheel but more so the force necessary to keep the wheel where you want it. There are tremendous forces trying jerk the wheel out of your hands... which requires a lot of strength to counter that. This is what slows you down and throws your timing off just that tiny bit here and there. You lose a lot of "smoothness" in your driving style.
TonyG
TonyG
Ok that makes sense. I bet that bump in the middle of turn 8 is no fun either. On our cars with smaller tires and less speed that feedback that you are fighting inceases out feeling of grip levels. Clearly you are carrying alot more cornering load so that make a difference. Honestly I would expect that your would not respond to something like manual steering like our cars do.
Thank you.