CarbonRevo

No joke on going through H22's. Two of my buddies are H series fans, but hate how unreliable and weak the motor is. The EG Hatch is actually H23 swapped now (Accord wagon motor from Japan). It's got a full exhaust, actual intake manifold, and possibly cams. It's a mean car no doubt. I've yet to see what the step to an H23 has done side by side. Then again, I don't think a Vitesse Stage 3 car would be a fair match!

Truth be told, I've always wanted to build a clean little civic hatch. Most of the guys in my town have crappy built, trashy cars. Half the bumper is hanging off, they're dirty, don't run right. Just bad cars. I'd love to have a show quality hatch with a nodded B18 or even an H23 swap. But like I said, that front wheel drive kills me lol

951_RS

Well, I was actually talking about the JDM H22A which makes 220 hp in stock form from 97 to 2001 and is more desirable
It has an 11:1 C/R compared to the 10:1 that out preludes came with

The H23 actually makes less power at 160 hp but has a lower C/R that is perfect for turbo charging applications (9.8:1)

CarbonRevo

The H23 my friend has actually has the 220bhp rating and torque was also bumped up. They would never swap an H23 over an H22 if it meant less power. And certainly not 50-60 less. If anything, the EG hatch is fatser now. They offered a few different H23 versions, like the H22.

951_RS

Yeah, but none of the ones offered had 220. Maybe they swapped in another H22A, the higher C/R one.
Here's the info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_H_engine

My old roommates were huge Honda fans so I know an awful lot about them and helped them do swaps pretty often. I've raced a few H22 civics in my gti and they all lost (not crx, just egs, efs, etc.) This was back when I was on stock turbo too. Really, swapped hatches were only fast back in the early to late 90's, now they're just 13 second cars or high 12's (which isn't fast anymore) depending on how much weight reduction and if they're using slicks or not.
A local street trim CRX just pulled a 12.8@107 recently on slicks here in Houston with ~195 whp and a real nice 60'.
He followed up the next week with a few 13.3's@102 =/
That's talking about just a basic swap, not anything crazy, no nitrous, etc.
The fastest all motor Honda in Houston is actually in the 10's, which is pretty crazy.

CarbonRevo

Interesting. I don't see how a 50-60 less hp H23 could be as fast as the H22A they had swapped in before.

And as far as some Hondas being high 12 second cars and you claiming "which isn't fast anymore", think again. A high 12 second pass in a car you can build for well under 10 grand? I think that's pretty fast. All motor at that. The H22 EG Hatch I ran, went 12.90 in the 1/4 on slicks. This car was bought for $6,000 originally with H22 already done. Had coil overs, full exhaust, black roof, duck tail, JDM fogs, 15" rotas...It was true JDM. Let me know of a car you can get for $6,000 that runs 12's.

Hell, even when I'm done, I'll be lucky to see low to mid 12's. And the fact that my Vitesse Stage 3 kit and SFR Stage 2 Header cost more then my buddies entire car makes things even worse.

951_RS

Nah it's still slow for the money. If you want to talk about being quick for low amounts of money buy a liter bike. A honda is a waste of time unless you want a cheap track car.
High 12's on slicks isn't impressive as a lot of stock cars run 12's on street tires now a days. A 951 isn't made for the drag and has a lot of things going against it. I have stock injectors and my 951 is already capable of 12's, so your stage 3 should easily hit 12's if you can drive it.
A 2 step makes it much much easier to get your car off the line as we have a long first gear and make very little power down low. So if you're really going to be into drag racing I would suggest looking at one.

CarbonRevo

Still slow for the money and then you tell me to get a bike? Let's evaluate things here. We're talking about cars. I know you can get bikes that run 11's all day long for under 10 grand. However, I can't go shopping with a bike, drive in snow, carry multiple people...really do anything besides ride it. You brought Apples to a strictly orange conversation.

Most new cars run 12's. Key word; new. We're talking budget cars here. $10,000 was the allowance. I don't see a 2010 Camaro SS falling into or under the $10,000 budget (still a massive bang for the buck though).

A 12 second Honda is one truly cheap, reliable and easy thing to do. A simple motor swap and some DR's and you can hit 12's. Cams and some motor work and you can push 12 flat or 11's even. I don't know of any other all motor cars that can do this for under $10,000 including car cost.

My 951 isn't a drag car and never will be. Both the 951 and the S2 are very cleanly detailed cars with tasetful mods and updates that are strictly nice weather cars. The 951 and its power is just for when I'm out with the local Porsche guys or some Evo budddies. I don't track either of my cars. They're strictly toys. The Trailblazer SS I plan to acquire sometime next year will be the drag vehicle/new daily driver. Nothing sounds better to me then a H/C LS2 with over 400whp...that will go anywhere and run with a lot of different vehicles on the road. And eat them for lunch from a dig.

951_RS

If you're talking about 1/4 mile time than a bike is a perfectly logical choice. People always get bent out of shape when someone mentions the dreaded mo-to-cy-cle. But really, in a bucket like a swapped civic, your sole purpose is 1/4 with cheap amount of dollars spent. So if someone wants to go from a to b for cheap, they should get a bike. It will break all notions of what a fast car is.

Nobody said anything about going to the grocery story or driving in the snow anyways.
You think it's a simple motor swap and DR's and you're running 12's but the truth of the matter is most swaps run 13's for various reasons. Some even low 14's.
Going to the grocery store in a fully gutted crx doesn't seem to be too good of an idea to me not to mention most all those swaps are illegal in most states
If you really don't know of any other cars that can run 12's for under 10k then maybe you need to go look up the word "domestic"
Particularly the 5.0 mustang.
There are a ton of cars that will run faster than a swapped civic for about just as cheap and do it much more consistently and without drag radials or slicks.
Even an sr20 swapped 240sx or 510 would have an easy time at 12s. Perhaps a 240z with a sbc swapped in.
Honda would be the last on my list of hybrids I owned.

Anyways, this topic has gone way off track, I just wanted to see if anyone had some firsthand experience with an ITR on a track.

CarbonRevo

I'm well aware of these cars. Then again, we were talking imported cars...aka a Honda and a Porsche, weren't we?

I don't see what's really so complex about an H22 swap. It's actually quite simple. A lot more simple then say a LS2 swap into a 944 or a V8 swap into a 240z. I've had a few buddies do it and it's really easy when it comes down to it.

And again, a bike is an apple in an orange conversation. I would sure hope a bike can run faster then most cars for rediculously stupid low prices. Friend of mine picked up a low mileage Honda CBR1000 for under $4,000. Not sure on 1/4 mile times of this bike but I would suspect 11's, maybe even very high 10's. Unfair judgement.

Way off track post, but it seems you Texas folk do it a little different then the country boys here in Kansas

TurboTommy

Well, I happen to own an ITR as well as my 951, so we can get to addressing the original intent of this thread.
ITR has 195 bhp and is 2,600 lbs.
I believe stock performance measurements were around 15 sec in the quarter mile, give or take a couple of tenths. Was the stock turbo s in the low to mid 14s, something like that? So it's not far off.
A stock 951s definitely feels faster, mainly because of the meaty mid range push we have with our cars.
I can get a top speed of 145 mph in the type R. So yes, a stock 951 S is and feels faster than a stock ITR in straight driving.
Handling wise, stock vs stock, I have to give a slight nudge to the type R. But that's mainly because out of the box, they engineered the type R to the fullest extent they could from a FWD car. Whereas the Porsche, I think they set up a little on the conservative side.
I spent some money on improving the handling, on both of these cars. While I made the type R even a bit faster, the Porsche showed much greater signs of improvement. Basically, at an autox the two cars are pretty even; maybe a slight edge to the 951. So, it is a bit of a testament of how non-FWDish the type R really is.

edh

The DC2 is a great track car in stock form - not such a nice road car. It's about as close to a race car feel as any production car I've ever driven (noisy, stiff & raw). The FWD limitations are much less obvious on the track than they are on the road IMO.

I've owned both, and the Porsche is a much more special and comfortable road car - when I was faced with the choice of selling one there was no competition - the DC2 went. Long road trips in the DC2 are a chore. I've done 2 to the 'ring from the UK and they were very uncomfortable, hot & noisy. The same journey in the 944 is so much more pleasant.

951_RS

Those were both very informative replies, thanks!
TurboTommy you summed up about what I expected to be honest. Also, I believe the stock Turbo S should be high 13's stock from the sources I've seen.

CarbonRevo

Correct on 951S 1/4 times Drew. I've seen as low as 13.5 seconds from the factory. Whether this is true or not is another thing. Sounds about right to me though, so long as the launch and 60 ft are respectable!

Olli Snellman

I am not interested of japanese cars or fwd, but if you have to pick up a fwd, i would go these "Volkswagens"

951_RS

The seat cupra R is really one wicked little car!