Build your own Maf kit
09-18-2009, 04:44 PM
#47
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Sorry for the delay:
90 mm transfer in volts per kg/hr
(Kg/Hr / 1.934) = CFM
V KG/hr
5.004811217 //1728.136886
5 //1728.136886
4.643206256 //1463.336014
4.447702835// 1291.75297
4.252199413 //1136.012714
4.056695992 //994.7007105
3.861192571// 866.6853318
3.66568915 //750.5520435
3.470185728// 645.7350318
3.274682307 //550.9612155
3.079178886// 465.5233274
2.883675464// 388.8555536
2.737047898 //336.5177745
2.590420332// 288.5650525
2.443792766 //245.2802947
2.2971652 //207.936582
2.150537634 //175.6851937
2.003910068 //147.5359558
1.857282502 //123.2059612
1.710654936 //101.8464891
1.56402737 //83.31608625
1.417399805// 67.33184559
1.270772239// 53.18649988
1.124144673// 41.02150257
0.977517107 //30.55394674
0.855327468 //23.05691351
0.73313783 //16.55005448
0.635386119// 12.8722646
0.562072336 //11.03336966
90 mm transfer in volts per kg/hr
(Kg/Hr / 1.934) = CFM
V KG/hr
5.004811217 //1728.136886
5 //1728.136886
4.643206256 //1463.336014
4.447702835// 1291.75297
4.252199413 //1136.012714
4.056695992 //994.7007105
3.861192571// 866.6853318
3.66568915 //750.5520435
3.470185728// 645.7350318
3.274682307 //550.9612155
3.079178886// 465.5233274
2.883675464// 388.8555536
2.737047898 //336.5177745
2.590420332// 288.5650525
2.443792766 //245.2802947
2.2971652 //207.936582
2.150537634 //175.6851937
2.003910068 //147.5359558
1.857282502 //123.2059612
1.710654936 //101.8464891
1.56402737 //83.31608625
1.417399805// 67.33184559
1.270772239// 53.18649988
1.124144673// 41.02150257
0.977517107 //30.55394674
0.855327468 //23.05691351
0.73313783 //16.55005448
0.635386119// 12.8722646
0.562072336 //11.03336966
09-19-2009, 01:51 PM
#48
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Having had a maf kit before and spending Tons $$$$$ on it and custom chip from a very reputable vendor, I can say that spending that money is not always worth it. I would realy love to have someone like Rogue help me do my own setup that is done for my parts etc. I spent all that money and time to in the end sell my setup, loose my shirt a piece of junk chip that never worked and whole lot of frustration. I feel maf is by far the best mod anyone can do, if you can get it to work properly, my car spooled and responded so much better with the kit, but it always had issues.
09-21-2009, 09:18 AM
#49
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I read in many posts the use of the Mustang Cobra MAF the only purpose of using that MAF is the actual Dimension the actual bore size is just about as large as a MAF can get...
So in all reality the hassle of mating a Ford MAF to the car is peanuts... Its like in my VW tuning days where people swear by having a throttle body bored out it makes these huge power gains...
The reality is that the motor in our cars is a maximum size of 3.2L for the Four banger and a 4.6L Ford Cobra MAF in relation to CFM intake via displacement is really just over kill and seemingly more than might be needed...
The best advice ive seen on this Thread is Get the Megasquirt and use a MAF or MAP sensor and call it a day...
Just my thoughts on this one...
So in all reality the hassle of mating a Ford MAF to the car is peanuts... Its like in my VW tuning days where people swear by having a throttle body bored out it makes these huge power gains...
The reality is that the motor in our cars is a maximum size of 3.2L for the Four banger and a 4.6L Ford Cobra MAF in relation to CFM intake via displacement is really just over kill and seemingly more than might be needed...
The best advice ive seen on this Thread is Get the Megasquirt and use a MAF or MAP sensor and call it a day...
Just my thoughts on this one...
I will have to look for the formulas, but IIRC 15psi doubles an engines effective dispalcement as it is double the bar pressure. Then in most cases many are running 18+psi which would put us over 5L of effective displacement.
That being said, the Cobra Hitatch/Ford MAF (85mm) and the Lightning MAF (90mm) would only be over kill for a stock boost/turbo.
As in my case at redline with the 90mm MAF, I am seeing about 4.2v which is well in the operating range of the MAF.
But I agree with you if you get one of these for a stock setup/turbo/boost you would probably not even see 4v which is not an effecient use of the bigger MAF.
And at 150$ brand new...????? How can you not go with it.
Been running mine for over a year now with a older chip (not specific for this (MAF) and my ARC2 Neo for piggy back tuning and it is a whole different car; and it is an animal in cold air.
09-21-2009, 09:35 AM
#50
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Doing the math:
I see about 4.2-4.3 which converts to about 1,200 kg/hr which is about 618 cfm which is (based on 1.5cfm per hp) about 412hp crank hp for my car or about 350whp which is about dead on my numbers.
Those are just estimates but you can see the correlations of flow to hp.
I see about 4.2-4.3 which converts to about 1,200 kg/hr which is about 618 cfm which is (based on 1.5cfm per hp) about 412hp crank hp for my car or about 350whp which is about dead on my numbers.
Those are just estimates but you can see the correlations of flow to hp.
09-21-2009, 05:36 PM
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One thing to remember with the homebrew kits... If you are using a piggy-back / or larger MAF to scale for significantly increased injectors, then your are also shifting the Part Throttle MAP load axis lookup. This will enlean the PT, and add timing...
-Rogue
-Rogue
09-21-2009, 05:38 PM
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09-21-2009, 06:10 PM
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Im thinking of Supercharging my S2... I was going to just nab a MAF off a Kompressor E or C 320 Model Car...
However the boost in relation to displacement is a good point that I didnt think about... I was just thinking on the lines of part functionality in relation to motor application... Like I said before the MAF for 1.8t'sare the same as the N/A 2L VW motors...
I want to honestly get rid of this huge air flap meter setup and put in a MAF im betting that alone will gain at least 5 hp right off top...
Whats the odds of matching a MAF to a stock DME unit..? What are the actual differences in voltage..? or does our DME read the Flap Meter on an OHMs basis..?
However the boost in relation to displacement is a good point that I didnt think about... I was just thinking on the lines of part functionality in relation to motor application... Like I said before the MAF for 1.8t'sare the same as the N/A 2L VW motors...
I want to honestly get rid of this huge air flap meter setup and put in a MAF im betting that alone will gain at least 5 hp right off top...
Whats the odds of matching a MAF to a stock DME unit..? What are the actual differences in voltage..? or does our DME read the Flap Meter on an OHMs basis..?
09-21-2009, 06:36 PM
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09-21-2009, 06:38 PM
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The DME reads voltage from the AFM, not resistance.
09-22-2009, 01:08 AM
#57
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As I read all the info on MAF and airflow meters I can relate my own observations. First I agree that a MAF in not going to be a perfect replacement with out some code change. That said I think that they can work very well with a little massaging. My setup is an Autothority MAF for a 944 turbo. I choose this MAF because it has a CARB number and I live in Denver with emissions checks. The Autothority MAF is a aftermarket unit built for mustangs (Pro 5.0 I think) I am running the MAF signal into a Spit second piggy back unit so I can modify the Voltage into the DME. I am also running an Intake air temperature sensor as I understand it is important for cold start. My car has a 3.0L 8v motor with a T04E turbo, Fabspeed 3" and 55lb injectors. I have guru chips with the FQS switch set to 55LB -2deg advance, I run 15lbs of boost. I tuned the Split Second controller by logging data from my wide band. My expense is that the car drives as well as it did with the flapper box, starts fine hot or cold, has good AF mixtures across the whole range and passes Colorado’s Dyno emissions tests. I realize I might be giving up a few hp over a stand alone (I have used stand alones on two other cars) but for a street car I don’t care. With stand alone FI I found it easy to tune for power but getting the drivability, cold start multi load idle etc to work as good as stock to be a major pain. Thus I would probably only use a stand alone again on a race car or something that was originally carbonated and switched to FI. I think it is very possible to brew your own MAF and have it work well if you understand what you are doing and have the correct tools. If you dont you might be buying a new engine.
Thanks
John
Thanks
John
09-22-2009, 05:28 AM
#58
Interesting info how it was done to a BMW:
For tune up, quite familiar looking stuff, isn't Maxxtune using more or less same equipment.
Make your own MAF conversion for under $50, I did it
While back I wanted to do my own mass airflow conversion to replace that flap door air flow meter so I started looking at recent models cars air mass sensors and their data. I found one where it takes 5v reference from the ecu also has integrated air temperature sensor, perfect for conversion. With exception of you got to power it by 12 volt source. It is from 2003 Hyundai accent 1.6L, bosch part number 0 280 218 106 or Hyundai part number 28100-2Y100. 5 pin mass meter.
The integrated air temperature sensor has the same resistance output as stock air temp sensor making it ideal. So I bought this sensor from the local junk yard for $30, I also got the plug for it, I also had one bad stock air flow meter so I took the plug from it to make an male adaptor to stock AFM harness. I wired it properly and supplied ignition switched, 12 volt source to it from near by socket, look at the picture.
No wire swaping at the DME is needed, no soldering at the ecu none. A pure $100 plug in mas meter conversion, I found a rubber hose and made a adaptor to fit it to stock air cleaner boc, all though I need to make it a bit better but for now its ok.
Car started right up but it ran rich(obviously). So I installed AEM uego 02 wideband guage meter to see what’s going on with air fuel ratio. Sense this mass meter is from 1.6L car it is obvious that it will sensitive for 2.5L engine, so the DME software needs some tuning. I installed my eprom emulating ECU together with emulator ostrich2.0 with tracing ability, connected my laptop, loaded free software tunerpro and definition file for DME 173 ecu and went to air flow meter map to trim it down a bit. I had to disconnect stock 02 sensor to prevent DME lambda correction and air fuel ratio at idle was about 11 to 1, so I tuned few values down and adjusted the flow constants and got the idle fuel ratio nailed at 14.7. Then I went for test drive and I was surprised that the air fuel ratio was right on, cruise about 14 to 16 to 1, and full load full throttle high rpm was around 13 to 1, might be little rich for naturaly aspirated car but for start it is fine. It was hot day in Phoenix and I feel bad for my car, I did some heavy acceleration to tune this ECU file and it is done and I am happy about it. Connected the stock 02 back and it runs smooth, I can’t tell much difference because I got automatic tranny, it is a dog.
I will share this information because I am BMW enthusiast and if more people get involved the sooner we will brake the Motronic code and MS will not be needed, but unfortunately many bmw tuners are greedy and just look for profits but these are old cars it should not be a secret anymore. I posted my MAF tune at ecuproject.com under BMW motronic forum so if you got someone to burn you a 27C256 chip go for it. Total money that I spent for this is less than $50, you can’t really beat that. Maybe I should look for another MAF sensor that better matches the DME map so that way there is room for bigger injectors and maybe room for turbo application. I don’t know much abut miller maf systems but I heard you got to cut wires at the ecu and I don’t like that idea.
Sensor wiring information:
Hyundai bosch sensor
Pin 1: Air temp sensor output to ecu
Pin 2: 12 volt input( see photo from where I got it)
Pin 3: Ground for maf sensor and air temp sensor
Pin 4: 5 volt input from ecu
Pin 5: 0-5 volt signal to ecu
BMW afm plug
Pin 1: air temp sensor input to ecu(Hyundai sensor pin 1)
Pin 2: maf signal 0-5 volt input to ecu(Hyundai sensor pin 5)
Pin 3: 5volt refrence from the ecu (Hyundai sensor pin 4)
Pin 4: ground source from ecu to sensor (Hyundai sensor pin 3)
Engine idles smooth, start right up, and air fuel ratio stays close to stock application, I did not hope that it will work out so well.
I posted the video of the engine running with the MAF installed and also video of map tracing the DME 173 ecu.
Here are the links:
Engine running with MAF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDkJ7Rut0vo
Tracing, and tuning software
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F2VjIFNID0
While back I wanted to do my own mass airflow conversion to replace that flap door air flow meter so I started looking at recent models cars air mass sensors and their data. I found one where it takes 5v reference from the ecu also has integrated air temperature sensor, perfect for conversion. With exception of you got to power it by 12 volt source. It is from 2003 Hyundai accent 1.6L, bosch part number 0 280 218 106 or Hyundai part number 28100-2Y100. 5 pin mass meter.
The integrated air temperature sensor has the same resistance output as stock air temp sensor making it ideal. So I bought this sensor from the local junk yard for $30, I also got the plug for it, I also had one bad stock air flow meter so I took the plug from it to make an male adaptor to stock AFM harness. I wired it properly and supplied ignition switched, 12 volt source to it from near by socket, look at the picture.
No wire swaping at the DME is needed, no soldering at the ecu none. A pure $100 plug in mas meter conversion, I found a rubber hose and made a adaptor to fit it to stock air cleaner boc, all though I need to make it a bit better but for now its ok.
Car started right up but it ran rich(obviously). So I installed AEM uego 02 wideband guage meter to see what’s going on with air fuel ratio. Sense this mass meter is from 1.6L car it is obvious that it will sensitive for 2.5L engine, so the DME software needs some tuning. I installed my eprom emulating ECU together with emulator ostrich2.0 with tracing ability, connected my laptop, loaded free software tunerpro and definition file for DME 173 ecu and went to air flow meter map to trim it down a bit. I had to disconnect stock 02 sensor to prevent DME lambda correction and air fuel ratio at idle was about 11 to 1, so I tuned few values down and adjusted the flow constants and got the idle fuel ratio nailed at 14.7. Then I went for test drive and I was surprised that the air fuel ratio was right on, cruise about 14 to 16 to 1, and full load full throttle high rpm was around 13 to 1, might be little rich for naturaly aspirated car but for start it is fine. It was hot day in Phoenix and I feel bad for my car, I did some heavy acceleration to tune this ECU file and it is done and I am happy about it. Connected the stock 02 back and it runs smooth, I can’t tell much difference because I got automatic tranny, it is a dog.
I will share this information because I am BMW enthusiast and if more people get involved the sooner we will brake the Motronic code and MS will not be needed, but unfortunately many bmw tuners are greedy and just look for profits but these are old cars it should not be a secret anymore. I posted my MAF tune at ecuproject.com under BMW motronic forum so if you got someone to burn you a 27C256 chip go for it. Total money that I spent for this is less than $50, you can’t really beat that. Maybe I should look for another MAF sensor that better matches the DME map so that way there is room for bigger injectors and maybe room for turbo application. I don’t know much abut miller maf systems but I heard you got to cut wires at the ecu and I don’t like that idea.
Sensor wiring information:
Hyundai bosch sensor
Pin 1: Air temp sensor output to ecu
Pin 2: 12 volt input( see photo from where I got it)
Pin 3: Ground for maf sensor and air temp sensor
Pin 4: 5 volt input from ecu
Pin 5: 0-5 volt signal to ecu
BMW afm plug
Pin 1: air temp sensor input to ecu(Hyundai sensor pin 1)
Pin 2: maf signal 0-5 volt input to ecu(Hyundai sensor pin 5)
Pin 3: 5volt refrence from the ecu (Hyundai sensor pin 4)
Pin 4: ground source from ecu to sensor (Hyundai sensor pin 3)
Engine idles smooth, start right up, and air fuel ratio stays close to stock application, I did not hope that it will work out so well.
I posted the video of the engine running with the MAF installed and also video of map tracing the DME 173 ecu.
Here are the links:
Engine running with MAF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDkJ7Rut0vo
Tracing, and tuning software
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F2VjIFNID0
09-22-2009, 12:52 PM
#59
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Can you elaborate a litte on this?
Are you referring to those that do not have a chip matched to the injectors or to the MAF?
In my case, my chip is mapped for my injectors, just not specificlly to my MAF. Then I just used PB to adjust fuel.
09-22-2009, 02:25 PM
#60
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As I read all the info on MAF and airflow meters I can relate my own observations. First I agree that a MAF in not going to be a perfect replacement with out some code change. That said I think that they can work very well with a little massaging. My setup is an Autothority MAF for a 944 turbo. I choose this MAF because it has a CARB number and I live in Denver with emissions checks. The Autothority MAF is a aftermarket unit built for mustangs (Pro 5.0 I think) I am running the MAF signal into a Spit second piggy back unit so I can modify the Voltage into the DME. I am also running an Intake air temperature sensor as I understand it is important for cold start. My car has a 3.0L 8v motor with a T04E turbo, Fabspeed 3" and 55lb injectors. I have guru chips with the FQS switch set to 55LB -2deg advance, I run 15lbs of boost. I tuned the Split Second controller by logging data from my wide band. My expense is that the car drives as well as it did with the flapper box, starts fine hot or cold, has good AF mixtures across the whole range and passes Colorado’s Dyno emissions tests. I realize I might be giving up a few hp over a stand alone (I have used stand alones on two other cars) but for a street car I don’t care. With stand alone FI I found it easy to tune for power but getting the drivability, cold start multi load idle etc to work as good as stock to be a major pain. Thus I would probably only use a stand alone again on a race car or something that was originally carbonated and switched to FI. I think it is very possible to brew your own MAF and have it work well if you understand what you are doing and have the correct tools. If you dont you might be buying a new engine.
Thanks
John
Thanks
John
+1
I have piece mealed my system and caused me some extra frsutrations at times over a plug and play matched system, but for 1/10th the cost and I would guess 95% of the performance and mine is a daily driver.
Of course, to each his own.
