Can I use a Tial 38 on a Turbo S with original/Transaxle.net chips?
06-29-2008, 11:51 AM
#1
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Can I use a Tial 38 on a Turbo S with original/Transaxle.net chips?
I have a new Tial 38 with a 0.8 bar spring, and I want to replace th stock, leaking wastegate directly with the Tial.
Top vent will go to atmos, side port will go to banjo bolt in IC pipe.
Can I do this or will I overboost?
Can is stock 1990 944 Turbo with original chips.
How can I use it as a stock wastegate, without changing chips and adding boost controller?
Updated: I found a set of transaxle chips. Do they require 3 bar FPR, and how do they work regarding the Tial? I think transaxle chips had orignal wastegate control built in, but at higher boost??
Regards
Boerge
Top vent will go to atmos, side port will go to banjo bolt in IC pipe.
Can I do this or will I overboost?
Can is stock 1990 944 Turbo with original chips.
How can I use it as a stock wastegate, without changing chips and adding boost controller?
Updated: I found a set of transaxle chips. Do they require 3 bar FPR, and how do they work regarding the Tial? I think transaxle chips had orignal wastegate control built in, but at higher boost??
Regards
Boerge
Last edited by boerge; 06-29-2008 at 05:01 PM.
06-29-2008, 12:48 PM
#3
I believe that the spring that comes with them (at least the one that came with mine, .8 bar) is more than the factory boost so you'd probably go into overboost protection.
I highly suggest buying aftermarket chips, and also some form of boost controller. A tial is a dual port wastegate and the factory one is a single port wastegate.
If you operate a DP wastegate in SP mode, it is not a accurate and reliable.
I highly suggest buying aftermarket chips, and also some form of boost controller. A tial is a dual port wastegate and the factory one is a single port wastegate.
If you operate a DP wastegate in SP mode, it is not a accurate and reliable.
06-29-2008, 12:59 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
A stock Turbo S, stock chips and stock boost control will hit 1.75 bar absolute at 3000 and should hold it till 5800 rpm and drops after. That information from the Porsche Turbo Shop Manual not my ***. 1 bar is 14.7 psi so .8 x 14.7 = 11.76 psi so its real close you should be fine. Now I would hook up a boost gauge to monitor it. The one in the dash is just for "entertainment purposes only" Also the .8 spring is just a close ballpark thing...I would hook up a boost controller and turn it all the way down if you are not hitting 11 lbs then set it to 11. I just hooked up a Tial 38, manual boost controller and I had stock chips. Now I have an 86 and at 3000 RPM the stock 86 hits 1.75 but then it rolls off to 1.52 at 5800 then drops after. so holding .8 till redline in my case I would be going lean....because of the stock fuel maps. I put in a set of Weltmeister Chips the TC-8200 ones (written by Dinan, I read it in the chip) and set it to 15 lbs It runs Fantastic!!!!
Brian
86 951
Brian
86 951
06-29-2008, 01:23 PM
#5
A stock Turbo S, stock chips and stock boost control will hit 1.75 bar absolute at 3000 and should hold it till 5800 rpm and drops after. That information from the Porsche Turbo Shop Manual not my ***. 1 bar is 14.7 psi so .8 x 14.7 = 11.76 psi so its real close you should be fine. Now I would hook up a boost gauge to monitor it. The one in the dash is just for "entertainment purposes only" Also the .8 spring is just a close ballpark thing...I would hook up a boost controller and turn it all the way down if you are not hitting 11 lbs then set it to 11. I just hooked up a Tial 38, manual boost controller and I had stock chips. Now I have an 86 and at 3000 RPM the stock 86 hits 1.75 but then it rolls off to 1.52 at 5800 then drops after. so holding .8 till redline in my case I would be going lean....because of the stock fuel maps. I put in a set of Weltmeister Chips the TC-8200 ones (written by Dinan, I read it in the chip) and set it to 15 lbs It runs Fantastic!!!!
Brian
86 951
Brian
86 951
Here's a little clarification on overboost by John at Vitesse:
Originally Posted by fast951
I have been asked a few questions regarding overboost and the functions of the DME & KLR. It appears that there is a bit of unknown or incorrect information floating around. The factory manual is a bit unclear on some of the issues. All of these findings are based on actual testing under a controlled environment, wheree we can generate errors and capture the DME & KLR behavior at will. We tested with various KLRs from different years. Hopefully this helps!
- Overboost Protection - DME: This is a function of the DME. it should be called overload protection as the DME does not read boost. At the same overboost settings, a smaller turbo running high boost may not trigger overboost protection, yet a large turbo running lower boost might trigger it. It's a bit more complicated, but you get the idea.
- Overboost Error - KLR: This is an error condition detected by the KLR when it detects an actual boost that is higher than it expects. This error will be triggered when you use the stock KLR chip and run higher boost by using an external boost control instead of the cycling valve. The KLR throws a code for this error. However the KLR does NOT retard timing based on this error.
* So if you are using the stock KLR and running high boost by using an external boost controller, the ignition timing is not being retarded UNLESS there is knock.
- Ignition Retard - KLR: The KLR retards timing when it detects KNOCK. However the KLR does NOT retard timing when it detects : Low battery/voltage, bad TPS, HI Boost or Low Boost errors. These errors will generate a error code.
* When the KLR detects knock, it retards timing by up to 6deg. When knock is gone, it will restore timing "gradually" not all at once.
* When errors are present (overboost, underboost, TPS,..) the KLR WILL pull timing if there is knock.
- Overboost Protection - DME: This is a function of the DME. it should be called overload protection as the DME does not read boost. At the same overboost settings, a smaller turbo running high boost may not trigger overboost protection, yet a large turbo running lower boost might trigger it. It's a bit more complicated, but you get the idea.
- Overboost Error - KLR: This is an error condition detected by the KLR when it detects an actual boost that is higher than it expects. This error will be triggered when you use the stock KLR chip and run higher boost by using an external boost control instead of the cycling valve. The KLR throws a code for this error. However the KLR does NOT retard timing based on this error.
* So if you are using the stock KLR and running high boost by using an external boost controller, the ignition timing is not being retarded UNLESS there is knock.
- Ignition Retard - KLR: The KLR retards timing when it detects KNOCK. However the KLR does NOT retard timing when it detects : Low battery/voltage, bad TPS, HI Boost or Low Boost errors. These errors will generate a error code.
* When the KLR detects knock, it retards timing by up to 6deg. When knock is gone, it will restore timing "gradually" not all at once.
* When errors are present (overboost, underboost, TPS,..) the KLR WILL pull timing if there is knock.
06-29-2008, 01:49 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
For what it's worth, I made exactly 12psi with the .8 spring. I could not get it any lower unless I changed the spring. I'd be surprised if 12psi tripped the overboost on an 89, but have been surprised before. The plumbing is another issue -- the stock arrangement increases boost by decreasing the pressure in the control line.
06-29-2008, 04:57 PM
#7
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Hello and thanks for help.
My assumptions were correct, as I will get boost as per spring pressure, this seems like 12 psi after your experiments. A boost controller will not really do anything in this case.
BUT, I found a set of old chips I had laying around, from Transaxle.net.
They say: Transaxle.net, M44.51/2.KLR .01 (KLR Chip), and M44.52.DME.01 (DME chip), both chips also say SN:2015 C03
I did not buy these new, so no instructions...Can you guys tell me if I can put these chips in and adjust boost to 15 psi and be fine? I know transaxle chips were designed to use stock wastegate and cycling valve??
Also I do not know if I need a 3 BAR FPR with these chips..Anyone?
Thanks
B
My assumptions were correct, as I will get boost as per spring pressure, this seems like 12 psi after your experiments. A boost controller will not really do anything in this case.
BUT, I found a set of old chips I had laying around, from Transaxle.net.
They say: Transaxle.net, M44.51/2.KLR .01 (KLR Chip), and M44.52.DME.01 (DME chip), both chips also say SN:2015 C03
I did not buy these new, so no instructions...Can you guys tell me if I can put these chips in and adjust boost to 15 psi and be fine? I know transaxle chips were designed to use stock wastegate and cycling valve??
Also I do not know if I need a 3 BAR FPR with these chips..Anyone?
Thanks
B
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06-29-2008, 05:09 PM
#8
Race Director
I doubt that anyone will give you advice on unknown products. Do yourself a favor and either learn what you have directly from the source or get you hands on stuff that you can get support for.
06-29-2008, 05:20 PM
#10
Why are you not wanting to change anything else? With higher performance parts comes different requirements. Do it right or don't do it at all is usually how you should approach modifying these cars.
06-29-2008, 05:24 PM
#11
FWIW I use a Tial 38mm with a 1 bar spring in dual port mode with a black ****, and the lowest maximum boost pressure I can choose is 0.6 bar. In single port mode with an accuboost I could not get less than 1.0 bar.
I normally run 1.2 bar, which is a shade less than 18 PSI.
I normally run 1.2 bar, which is a shade less than 18 PSI.
06-29-2008, 05:33 PM
#14
How old are these chips ?
The ones that work with the boost protection are fairly recent and require the boost sensor in the KLR box to be replaced. I don't think they are available separately anyway.
The ones that work with the boost protection are fairly recent and require the boost sensor in the KLR box to be replaced. I don't think they are available separately anyway.
06-29-2008, 05:53 PM
#15
