Ski, you are right. I know what you mean. Your post sound was confusing to me as we share the same names..Thanks for your support.

 

I didn't start this thread with any care "how it went". I did it to inform those that do care about good vendors and their products, the kind of practices that are currently going on with Lindsey Racing.

Lindsey Racing designed and market a "Steam Vent Kit". I'm sure many have purchased one. Did CEP buy one and copy it. NO. I'm sure LR has come up with many ideas, but all CEP and some of the other have done is to come up with ideas of their own, only to have them copied and in this case, go begind their backs and purchase direct from their supplier. Its one thing to buy something to buy something and copy the idea, make your version with differences, but thats not what they are doing. They are either copying directly or buying the very same part from a company who casts the pans for David. Luckily, this dooor has since been closed. But we still nned to protect good vendors from those vendors who blatantly copy for their own profit.

Think past your own needs here. You can buy from those who design and make it. If we loose the good vendors, then we all loose as they will not invest their time and money into new product for us. All we will be left with are those vendors who copied. Who wants them?

 

the power of the internet

 

At the risk of jumping into a s**t storm….here are some facts and some opinions on this –
The Havik pan has been around for a while but the original did not fit a 944 turbo (no room for a cross over pipe). Dave (McGrath) took the initiative and worked with the fabricator to redesign the pan to work with the 944 turbo and coughed up quite a bit of $ to get molds made and the pan cast. That stuff isn’t cheap – I looked at the same thing myself a long time ago and the initial investment was way too big for my own use. Dave has done a good job getting his pans manufactured and marketed. I hope he has a good solid deal with the caster so that nobody can cash in on his investment.
I have to admit that I even thought about buying some of the old Havik stock and modifying them if the price was right but I passed on that too – I don’t want to be a parts vendor!
Dave and Neil do have some original and well fabricated parts - just being able to make something that looks like the stuff that Dave and Neil make does not mean it will work the same. A well engineered dry sump system is more than just a pan, pump and some hoses, it has to be set up right and tuned to fit the engine.
I would never consider buying a ‘copycat’ deckplate system – it takes a lot of work and R&D to get things like that to work. Just being able to ‘fill in the space’ is not enough. (BTW – I have played with an old Doom block that had the space filled in….the idea has been around – its making it work that counts!)
Same goes with a lot of other parts / kits that are out there – you (the consumer) should be buying more than the parts – you are buying the knowledge and support behind those parts.
Cheap parts are always out there, but cheap knowledge is not!

 

Hi Guys,

We heard from this topic from a few friends of mine and I have been thinking hard if we should react or not. We know the power of the Internet and also knows it is sometimes used by people claiming things which are not always true the way they tell. Normally I don’t react on a topic whatever they say, but this time we felt the need to do. So I hope to get the respect for doing this.

Let me introduce myself. I am Robert van kol, owner of HAVIK Racing Solution in Belgium and owner developer of the original 944 dry sump pan, which is now offered by Lindsey Racing. In no way Lindsey has been involved in making this pan, just they are the distributor for me for the US market like I am distributing material of them in Europe. It is just a business deal between the 2 of us of which we feel Lindsey was the right person to support this pan overseas.

In fact the first drawings of this dry sump pan already exist from somewhere 2004 where the development started together with ARE drysumps. It was then we paid for a 944 engine where ARE could start his first casting on. After trying some designs the definite design finished somewhere the end of 2006 where we started production of a pan which fitted on 944,944 turbo and 968..

You can find my link at: http://www.drysump.com/pan28.htm.

Indeed we heard last year from the existence of CEP pans when we got an email from a customer from the UK who wanted to compare prices. Its there where we found out there was a clone made from mine original design. We didn’t know CEP and have never been in contact with them but recognized the base of their pan.

So asking ARE about this issue he claimed there was enough market for more designs and I had to agree I couldn’t have the whole world so he started on my design to help CEP.

I agreed on ARE the world is big enough for more players and I didn’t care CEP was selling as well what was basically our design. In the meantime HAVIK RS has several engines running successfully our drysump pans.

You can find here a few small films on youtube where you can see our pan in action last year. Hopefully this clears it for all of us and we all can go on with our daily business.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xORZcoIJzY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgudZEy6VWI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL25C7Xe_RQ

Rob van kol
HAVIK Racing Solutions
Belgium
www.havikrs.com

 

Well said Chris.

As mentioned before its ultimately up to the consumer to research what they are buying, and that's why I only deal with as few as possible people when it comes to parts/setups. I hope everything is resolved in the best interests for the deserving parties as, just because its legal doesn't mean its ethically right.

 

[QUOTE=havikrs;5426241In fact the first drawings of this dry sump pan already exist from somewhere 2004 where the development started together with ARE drysumps. It was then we paid for a 944 engine where ARE could start his first casting on. After trying some designs the definite design finished somewhere the end of 2006 where we started production.

Its there where we found out there was a clone made from mine original design. We didn’t know CEP and have never been in contact with them but recognized the base of their pan.

So asking ARE about this issue he claimed there was enough market for more designs and I had to agree I couldn’t have the whole world so he started on my design to help CEP. QUOTE]

Rob,

Your story is not correct but I will not get into it. CEP's pan was a started at the same exact time as yours. Neither of the pans is the 1st. Perhaps you didn't know that CEP sent ARE the crossover pipe to make the clearance needed in the pan.

Your pan was a 944 pan and CEP went through all the trouble making it a turbo pan and put turbo drains on both sides. Also, it uses a lower scalloped pickup section which is different.

CEP made 20+ pans over 3years and sold 15 complete dry sump kits, including brackets, pumps, etc..

I'm not disrespecting your product, parts or service but please be accurate in your story. The good news is you will be able to benifit from this.

 

Chris,

Thank you.

 

Chris,

Thank you for the post. It shows that there is some respect amongst vendors. It is nice to see repect given where due.

As for the post by Mr Van Kol, this is not exactly the truth. Mr Van Kol, you need to tell the whole story if you wish to post something we should all know. The deal you had with the Casting company was for multiple units. You could not pay for the ones you ordered. In order to meet your commitment, you sold off the units you could not pay for to Lindsey who have done their best to go behind CEP's back to get hold of this product. Thank heavens the casting company has ethics and has agreed not to sell to you any further units. You sir I have no problem with, other than not telling the whole story. LR however have copied the idea of many vendors not just CEP. It is this reason I am concerned about their practices.

 

.ch is Switzerland, not China.

 

The first 944T dry sump systems where built in 1982 , Is everyone here saying that all previous Drysump kits from the 80's where no good , did not work ? being copied? If the pans where not copyrighted or patented , how could one be copying the other . Really all of this is a building block of someone's previous work , ownership is very limited , regardless of who's camp you are from .....or who thought they did it first ....

 

You start the thread with no mention of havik, and say that LR ripped off CEP. You attack LR and then it comes out they are selling someone elses pan?, which is a name you never mention in all of this. Then you tell Havik they are not telling the whole story when this is something you are very obviously guilty of (or was just that you didn't know the whole story).

As for LR copying other products sure, but why is a good question. Take pullies or A/C delete braket for instance. They were getting these from broadfoot who could keep up with thier demand, they were left with no choice but to make their own.

Then you go on about LR not having a machine shop and subbing it out, why is this big deal? The cost to be able to make everything in house so high and there is no point. You mention other "better" tuners as part of the in house thing, but interestingly enough some of those people sub out more stuff than LR but claim to do it them selves, LR mkes no such claims. You also mention other "shops" who are relly peole who do this on the side and have day jobs. nd you also mention other "shops" that sell stand alones with base maps they origanaly "stole" from another tuner and passed around.

Basicly what I got out of your post and this thread is that LR now sells a dry sump (which I am going to look into getting), and that you don't really know what you are talking about.

 

Ouch!

 

Hey wait a minute....are you telling me that China has made a rip off copy of Switzerland and put it on the internet?

 

Yeah, but don't confuse it with Sweden. Like most 'muricans do..