Selling my 1986 951
05-19-2008, 02:37 PM
#61
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I have sold a few cars over the years and have pretty mixed feelings about a PPI. When I sell cars they are usually decent, but not great and they might have some little problems. I try to price cars cheap so they sell fast and with little effort on my end. Some people have asked me to get PPIs done and I am usually reluctant, here are some of the reasons:
It takes time to drop the car off and pick it up again, get a ride or a bus to/from work. If I invest time in the car and sale process, I expect to get more money for it.
I have a low opinion of shops in general and worry that something will get damaged during the PPI. Aluminum lug nuts, belly pan hardware, spark plug torque, oil drain plug damage... lots of things I pay attention to that a person doing a PPI might not. I'm sure there are shops out there that do a great job but I would be going in blind unless the buyer knows of one.
PPIs on older, inexpensive used cars are going to turn up problems, and I assume the buyer would then expect to get the cost of those repairs deducted from the asking price. I probably would not be willing to do that, so I see the PPI as likely to make the deal go bad. If, like many sellers, I started out at $8k to try to get $5500 for a car that might be different but that's not how I do it.
I had a guy asking about a PPI for my Saab 9000CS I sold last month. I told him that I felt that if he was paying someone to look over a $3000 car, maybe he should be buying a nicer car for more money?
He was trying to get a good car for very small money, yet wanted a car with lots of options and a powerful engine. Not too hard if you are a good shadetree mechanic but if you aren't that usually does not work out. I ended up agreeing to the PPI since there was a good Saab shop on my way to work, I did not tell him that the price would become firm if we went ahead with it (basically I would get $300 more than I'd figured the car would sell for after some negotiation.) Thankfully the car sold to a buyer that was a better fit for the car before we went down that road.
$300 is about what I figure the cost to the buyer is for me to tolerate a PPI on one of my cars. Naturally the cost of the PPI also goes to the buyer.
Is a PPI a good idea? Maybe. Not on a cheap car a seller is trying to sell cheaply and quickly. Not if the shop is lazy, dishonest or incompetent... or just not familiar with that particular type of car.
A meaningful PPI on a 951 that includes belts, turbo shaft play, etc. is probably a pretty significant amount of money too.
-Joel.
It takes time to drop the car off and pick it up again, get a ride or a bus to/from work. If I invest time in the car and sale process, I expect to get more money for it.
I have a low opinion of shops in general and worry that something will get damaged during the PPI. Aluminum lug nuts, belly pan hardware, spark plug torque, oil drain plug damage... lots of things I pay attention to that a person doing a PPI might not. I'm sure there are shops out there that do a great job but I would be going in blind unless the buyer knows of one.
PPIs on older, inexpensive used cars are going to turn up problems, and I assume the buyer would then expect to get the cost of those repairs deducted from the asking price. I probably would not be willing to do that, so I see the PPI as likely to make the deal go bad. If, like many sellers, I started out at $8k to try to get $5500 for a car that might be different but that's not how I do it.
I had a guy asking about a PPI for my Saab 9000CS I sold last month. I told him that I felt that if he was paying someone to look over a $3000 car, maybe he should be buying a nicer car for more money?
He was trying to get a good car for very small money, yet wanted a car with lots of options and a powerful engine. Not too hard if you are a good shadetree mechanic but if you aren't that usually does not work out. I ended up agreeing to the PPI since there was a good Saab shop on my way to work, I did not tell him that the price would become firm if we went ahead with it (basically I would get $300 more than I'd figured the car would sell for after some negotiation.) Thankfully the car sold to a buyer that was a better fit for the car before we went down that road.
$300 is about what I figure the cost to the buyer is for me to tolerate a PPI on one of my cars. Naturally the cost of the PPI also goes to the buyer.
Is a PPI a good idea? Maybe. Not on a cheap car a seller is trying to sell cheaply and quickly. Not if the shop is lazy, dishonest or incompetent... or just not familiar with that particular type of car.
A meaningful PPI on a 951 that includes belts, turbo shaft play, etc. is probably a pretty significant amount of money too.
-Joel.
05-19-2008, 02:41 PM
#62
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I have sold a few cars over the years and have pretty mixed feelings about a PPI. When I sell cars they are usually decent, but not great and they might have some little problems. I try to price cars cheap so they sell fast and with little effort on my end. Some people have asked me to get PPIs done and I am usually reluctant, here are some of the reasons:
It takes time to drop the car off and pick it up again, get a ride or a bus to/from work. If I invest time in the car and sale process, I expect to get more money for it.
I have a low opinion of shops in general and worry that something will get damaged during the PPI. Aluminum lug nuts, belly pan hardware, spark plug torque, oil drain plug damage... lots of things I pay attention to that a person doing a PPI might not. I'm sure there are shops out there that do a great job but I would be going in blind unless the buyer knows of one.
PPIs on older, inexpensive used cars are going to turn up problems, and I assume the buyer would then expect to get the cost of those repairs deducted from the asking price. I probably would not be willing to do that, so I see the PPI as likely to make the deal go bad. If, like many sellers, I started out at $8k to try to get $5500 for a car that might be different but that's not how I do it.
I had a guy asking about a PPI for my Saab 9000CS I sold last month. I told him that I felt that if he was paying someone to look over a $3000 car, maybe he should be buying a nicer car for more money?
He was trying to get a good car for very small money, yet wanted a car with lots of options and a powerful engine. Not too hard if you are a good shadetree mechanic but if you aren't that usually does not work out. I ended up agreeing to the PPI since there was a good Saab shop on my way to work, I did not tell him that the price would become firm if we went ahead with it (basically I would get $300 more than I'd figured the car would sell for after some negotiation.) Thankfully the car sold to a buyer that was a better fit for the car before we went down that road.
$300 is about what I figure the cost to the buyer is for me to tolerate a PPI on one of my cars. Naturally the cost of the PPI also goes to the buyer.
Is a PPI a good idea? Maybe. Not on a cheap car a seller is trying to sell cheaply and quickly. Not if the shop is lazy, dishonest or incompetent... or just not familiar with that particular type of car.
A meaningful PPI on a 951 that includes belts, turbo shaft play, etc. is probably a pretty significant amount of money too.
-Joel.
It takes time to drop the car off and pick it up again, get a ride or a bus to/from work. If I invest time in the car and sale process, I expect to get more money for it.
I have a low opinion of shops in general and worry that something will get damaged during the PPI. Aluminum lug nuts, belly pan hardware, spark plug torque, oil drain plug damage... lots of things I pay attention to that a person doing a PPI might not. I'm sure there are shops out there that do a great job but I would be going in blind unless the buyer knows of one.
PPIs on older, inexpensive used cars are going to turn up problems, and I assume the buyer would then expect to get the cost of those repairs deducted from the asking price. I probably would not be willing to do that, so I see the PPI as likely to make the deal go bad. If, like many sellers, I started out at $8k to try to get $5500 for a car that might be different but that's not how I do it.
I had a guy asking about a PPI for my Saab 9000CS I sold last month. I told him that I felt that if he was paying someone to look over a $3000 car, maybe he should be buying a nicer car for more money?
He was trying to get a good car for very small money, yet wanted a car with lots of options and a powerful engine. Not too hard if you are a good shadetree mechanic but if you aren't that usually does not work out. I ended up agreeing to the PPI since there was a good Saab shop on my way to work, I did not tell him that the price would become firm if we went ahead with it (basically I would get $300 more than I'd figured the car would sell for after some negotiation.) Thankfully the car sold to a buyer that was a better fit for the car before we went down that road.
$300 is about what I figure the cost to the buyer is for me to tolerate a PPI on one of my cars. Naturally the cost of the PPI also goes to the buyer.
Is a PPI a good idea? Maybe. Not on a cheap car a seller is trying to sell cheaply and quickly. Not if the shop is lazy, dishonest or incompetent... or just not familiar with that particular type of car.
A meaningful PPI on a 951 that includes belts, turbo shaft play, etc. is probably a pretty significant amount of money too.
-Joel.
05-19-2008, 02:57 PM
#63
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For a long distance purchase I always figure the car has to be at least $2k less than I could get locally (factoring in what I would pay for color/options/etc. too.) $1k for the travel and $1k for the pig in the poke. A PPI might cut into that second $1k, if the shop does a good job.
-Joel.
05-19-2008, 03:00 PM
#64
honestly, I'd be hesitant taking my car to a dealer. I know Park Place is good, but others...I'm not so sure...
05-19-2008, 03:15 PM
#65
Quit Smokin'
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Mitch and others... I want to clarify a little.
The car mitch is selling is NICE looking, and drives better than it looks. I thought it was a little down on power for what I was expecting, but given the compression numbers, and stock exhaust, it ran well.
To muddy the waters on the PPI issue, I was told by Nelson that you were fine with the PPI, but you would NOT drop it off for him. Meaning that nelson would be out the travel costs and the ppi expense either way. Kyle and I are comfortable enough with these cars that a PPI was not necessary. In this case the only thing a PPI would have earned Nelson was a bigger lesson in the school of hard nocks... That IS if he understood you properly. I doubt Nelson would have had a problem making a simple phone call, and quite frankly if that was the only issue I would have called for him
Mitch, as far as not seeing the compression numbers... that is a lame excuse. You did not see them because you didn't want to. You were sitting right there on the sidewalk, and you also know that we rechecked the bad cylinders to make sure it wasnt a problem with the test. I was pointing the face of the gauge at you on purpose, I thought you might have wanted to glance at it.
As far as what to expect from a used 951. Everyone knows these cars have issues, but everyone also knows that these cars are condition priced, not depending on mileage as much as on recipts and records. In my opinion it is not acceptable to expect a car to need an overhaul when you tell a prosepctive buyer that the head was off 20k miles ago and everything was exceptionally clean and in good shape. I can tell you from the deposits on the plugs that everything is not clean in there now!
My gut says that this would be a $9k car with a fresh engine from a reputable shop. Even with the oil leaks The car would have been a good buy for $7500, but the bad compression was the deal breaker.
Put the car on craigs list, someone will give you $7500 if they don't know how much 944's cost to maintain... If you would feel ok about something like that.
The car mitch is selling is NICE looking, and drives better than it looks. I thought it was a little down on power for what I was expecting, but given the compression numbers, and stock exhaust, it ran well.
To muddy the waters on the PPI issue, I was told by Nelson that you were fine with the PPI, but you would NOT drop it off for him. Meaning that nelson would be out the travel costs and the ppi expense either way. Kyle and I are comfortable enough with these cars that a PPI was not necessary. In this case the only thing a PPI would have earned Nelson was a bigger lesson in the school of hard nocks... That IS if he understood you properly. I doubt Nelson would have had a problem making a simple phone call, and quite frankly if that was the only issue I would have called for him
Mitch, as far as not seeing the compression numbers... that is a lame excuse. You did not see them because you didn't want to. You were sitting right there on the sidewalk, and you also know that we rechecked the bad cylinders to make sure it wasnt a problem with the test. I was pointing the face of the gauge at you on purpose, I thought you might have wanted to glance at it.
As far as what to expect from a used 951. Everyone knows these cars have issues, but everyone also knows that these cars are condition priced, not depending on mileage as much as on recipts and records. In my opinion it is not acceptable to expect a car to need an overhaul when you tell a prosepctive buyer that the head was off 20k miles ago and everything was exceptionally clean and in good shape. I can tell you from the deposits on the plugs that everything is not clean in there now!
My gut says that this would be a $9k car with a fresh engine from a reputable shop. Even with the oil leaks The car would have been a good buy for $7500, but the bad compression was the deal breaker.
Put the car on craigs list, someone will give you $7500 if they don't know how much 944's cost to maintain... If you would feel ok about something like that.
05-19-2008, 07:15 PM
#66
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All I know about this is what I've read here but it seems to me the seller has been pretty square.
====
Seller offers an agressive price, with pics, to an informed group.
Buyer asks for support of PPI.
Seller refuses.
Buyer makes road trip, evaluates the car, provides an adjusted offer.
Seller refuses.
=====
Game over. Not to be too pointed about this but Mitch did more to help you guys than I would have. I wouldn't hold the car without a deposit and I sure wouldn't let someone tinker with it before money changed hands. When I go to deal with another man, I try to leave the sniveling at home. Just a thought...Bruce
====
Seller offers an agressive price, with pics, to an informed group.
Buyer asks for support of PPI.
Seller refuses.
Buyer makes road trip, evaluates the car, provides an adjusted offer.
Seller refuses.
=====
Game over. Not to be too pointed about this but Mitch did more to help you guys than I would have. I wouldn't hold the car without a deposit and I sure wouldn't let someone tinker with it before money changed hands. When I go to deal with another man, I try to leave the sniveling at home. Just a thought...Bruce
05-19-2008, 07:29 PM
#67
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All I know about this is what I've read here but it seems to me the seller has been pretty square.
====
Seller offers an agressive price, with pics, to an informed group.
Buyer asks for support of PPI.
Seller refuses.
Buyer makes road trip, evaluates the car, provides an adjusted offer.
Seller refuses.
=====
Game over. Not to be too pointed about this but Mitch did more to help you guys than I would have. I wouldn't hold the car without a deposit and I sure wouldn't let someone tinker with it before money changed hands. When I go to deal with another man, I try to leave the sniveling at home. Just a thought...Bruce
====
Seller offers an agressive price, with pics, to an informed group.
Buyer asks for support of PPI.
Seller refuses.
Buyer makes road trip, evaluates the car, provides an adjusted offer.
Seller refuses.
=====
Game over. Not to be too pointed about this but Mitch did more to help you guys than I would have. I wouldn't hold the car without a deposit and I sure wouldn't let someone tinker with it before money changed hands. When I go to deal with another man, I try to leave the sniveling at home. Just a thought...Bruce
I do agree with you to some point. Mitch seemed to work with him and did offer to reduce the price 1k. However 30 minutes of Mitch's time dropping the car off would have saved Nelson 2 days time and $500 dollars. Also I am sure Mitch tied up more than 30 minutes of his time meeting Nelson, talking with him on the phone and answering his emails.
05-19-2008, 07:59 PM
#68
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05-19-2008, 10:31 PM
#69
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Ok I'm not sure i went into detail about my experience. It is buyer beware and i realize that. I found a Porsche 951 with 76k miles on it and i got him to agree to $5000 from $9000 CDN dollars once i got there and had the inspection. I arranged to have the buyer pay for a PPI and meet me in another city here in Canada. i live in Toronto, Canada and the car was in Ottawa, Ontario. I'm obsessed with the 951 and i will find the good deal if it kills me. I don't own a car, so i rented a car to go see this silver 951. Ad says, sunroof works great, mechanically great, low miles, must sell. I get there, and find at least 12 things wrong with the car including the sunroof. And because i drove about 4 951's maybe only 2 weeks before i knew this car wasn't pulling enough power. Sure enough, the mechanic says there is a leak near the oil pan, and crack near the wastgate and exhaust. Mechanic said the rod bearings look find though. The whole deal cost me about 9 hrs driving and about $225 for gas and rental car. I'm still unsure if it's a good deal, because i just don't know if the head gasket blew. Otherwise, all it needs for safety is an exhaust.
The problem is i'm just NOT sure. My gutt tells me it needs a new engine rebuild given the number of neglected issues with the car. Still $5000 is pretty cheap for a 76kr.
The problem is i'm just NOT sure. My gutt tells me it needs a new engine rebuild given the number of neglected issues with the car. Still $5000 is pretty cheap for a 76kr.
05-19-2008, 11:32 PM
#70
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Sebastian you should probably start another thread, this is someone's FS thread. BTW I'd be amazed if a mechanic checked the rod bearings in a PPI, unless the PPI cost $1200.
05-20-2008, 02:44 PM
#72
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After years of being on this board I can safely say: If I had a 951 to sell, which I do, I would not post it here.
You are just asking for grief and abuse. If it's perfect or close to it, ask top-doollar and get it through the PCA newsletter. If it has issues, sell it in the local paper.
You are just asking for grief and abuse. If it's perfect or close to it, ask top-doollar and get it through the PCA newsletter. If it has issues, sell it in the local paper.
