Some Darton MID Pics
04-16-2008, 02:53 PM
#46
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oh, the sleeving is being performed by a local machinist. old guy, semi-retired, good at what he does with 4 other 951 sleeved motors that still run on the track to his credit. 
04-16-2008, 08:27 PM
#47
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the last photo is from a stock motor with MLS gasket. i'm going to 2.7 bore with darton sleeves and became concerned when i noticed the holes have nowhere to vent.
i've called and spoken to darton about this, and they said these sleeves were originally designed for the honda motor which does allow the coolant to pass from the block to the head via those holes. they said they didn't know what would happen on the 951 application.
i'm actually considering cutting out some 'slots' at points around the outside edge to allow the air to escape back into the block.
i've called and spoken to darton about this, and they said these sleeves were originally designed for the honda motor which does allow the coolant to pass from the block to the head via those holes. they said they didn't know what would happen on the 951 application.
i'm actually considering cutting out some 'slots' at points around the outside edge to allow the air to escape back into the block.
04-16-2008, 11:27 PM
#48
Did you have some form of failure, or are you just doing this as an upgrade?
The 951s your machinist has done... were they dry or wet?
04-17-2008, 12:16 AM
#49
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[QUOTE=nize;5319022]the last photo is from a stock motor with MLS gasket. i'm going to 2.7 bore with darton sleeves and became concerned when i noticed the holes have nowhere to vent.
i've called and spoken to darton about this, and they said these sleeves were originally designed for the honda motor which does allow the coolant to pass from the block to the head via those holes. they said they didn't know what would happen on the 951 application.QUOTE]
This is exactly what Darton told me when I was considering MID's. They told me that these were designed for Honda motors, but "should" work in my car. Should work from the manufacturer on a 13K short block build, and NO ONE willing to share their success with the MID's on 951's made me go the traditional proven route. I did hear of few failures though.
I might get in trouble here, but I've been asking for over a year for someone to share their success with the MID technology in our cars.
Someone? Don't blast me, I really like the idea of the wet sleeved technology. Just want to hear about all these motors doing well and taking names in a constant hp, boost on/off track/street application.
i've called and spoken to darton about this, and they said these sleeves were originally designed for the honda motor which does allow the coolant to pass from the block to the head via those holes. they said they didn't know what would happen on the 951 application.QUOTE]
This is exactly what Darton told me when I was considering MID's. They told me that these were designed for Honda motors, but "should" work in my car. Should work from the manufacturer on a 13K short block build, and NO ONE willing to share their success with the MID's on 951's made me go the traditional proven route. I did hear of few failures though.
I might get in trouble here, but I've been asking for over a year for someone to share their success with the MID technology in our cars.
Someone? Don't blast me, I really like the idea of the wet sleeved technology. Just want to hear about all these motors doing well and taking names in a constant hp, boost on/off track/street application.
04-17-2008, 12:33 AM
#50
Perhaps somebody can correct me on this but I have been told that even Darton cannot tell you what the clearances should be and that it may involve some "trial and error" to get it right. If so, I guess this would explain the "failures". I guess if they were designed for another engine but "should work" for ours, this makes sense.
04-17-2008, 12:52 AM
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the sleeves are what i've found people refer to as 'semi-wet' or 'wet'. there are two rings at the bottom that seal the coolant.
04-17-2008, 12:54 AM
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Perhaps somebody can correct me on this but I have been told that even Darton cannot tell you what the clearances should be and that it may involve some "trial and error" to get it right. If so, I guess this would explain the "failures". I guess if they were designed for another engine but "should work" for ours, this makes sense.
04-17-2008, 01:03 AM
#53
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This is exactly what Darton told me when I was considering MID's. They told me that these were designed for Honda motors, but "should" work in my car. Should work from the manufacturer on a 13K short block build, and NO ONE willing to share their success with the MID's on 951's made me go the traditional proven route. I did hear of few failures though.
I might get in trouble here, but I've been asking for over a year for someone to share their success with the MID technology in our cars.
Someone? Don't blast me, I really like the idea of the wet sleeved technology. Just want to hear about all these motors doing well and taking names in a constant hp, boost on/off track/street application.
I might get in trouble here, but I've been asking for over a year for someone to share their success with the MID technology in our cars.
Someone? Don't blast me, I really like the idea of the wet sleeved technology. Just want to hear about all these motors doing well and taking names in a constant hp, boost on/off track/street application.
it's unfortunate for guys like us who want to mod our cars knowledgeably, but on the other hand i can understand the other side of the coin. why would anyone, especially an engine builder/vendor, want to share their secret recipe so others could copy and undercut them? information is worth a lot of money in this case.
maybe that's why porsche performance mods still cost an arm and a leg while jap and domestic mod prices keep going down.
04-17-2008, 02:13 AM
#54
Any reason for choosing MID over dry sleeve? From what I understand, you would need much greater clearances with MIDs than with dry sleeves due to the properties of the sleeves which may not be too good for a car that sees some street use as it will be very noisy until it is at operating temp.
04-17-2008, 02:26 AM
#55
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[QUOTE=George D;5320973]
I think the biggest reason you don't get much response is because there just aren't that many folks using the product. I can only think of one 944 guy doing the job right, and he worked directly with Darton to make the adjustments and tools necessary to do the job. So, how many people have both the cash and the will, in our community, to have Chris build them an overbored MID engine. Only Chris knows that answer, and if I were he, I'd be wholly unwilling to divulge my customers names. So your responses will remain pretty limited. Not all of Chris' customers are "Listers, in fact most are not, so it is what it is.
BTW Chris doesn't run standard coolant with this application.
the last photo is from a stock motor with MLS gasket. i'm going to 2.7 bore with darton sleeves and became concerned when i noticed the holes have nowhere to vent.
i've called and spoken to darton about this, and they said these sleeves were originally designed for the honda motor which does allow the coolant to pass from the block to the head via those holes. they said they didn't know what would happen on the 951 application.QUOTE]
This is exactly what Darton told me when I was considering MID's. They told me that these were designed for Honda motors, but "should" work in my car. Should work from the manufacturer on a 13K short block build, and NO ONE willing to share their success with the MID's on 951's made me go the traditional proven route. I did hear of few failures though.
I might get in trouble here, but I've been asking for over a year for someone to share their success with the MID technology in our cars.
Someone? Don't blast me, I really like the idea of the wet sleeved technology. Just want to hear about all these motors doing well and taking names in a constant hp, boost on/off track/street application.
i've called and spoken to darton about this, and they said these sleeves were originally designed for the honda motor which does allow the coolant to pass from the block to the head via those holes. they said they didn't know what would happen on the 951 application.QUOTE]
This is exactly what Darton told me when I was considering MID's. They told me that these were designed for Honda motors, but "should" work in my car. Should work from the manufacturer on a 13K short block build, and NO ONE willing to share their success with the MID's on 951's made me go the traditional proven route. I did hear of few failures though.
I might get in trouble here, but I've been asking for over a year for someone to share their success with the MID technology in our cars.
Someone? Don't blast me, I really like the idea of the wet sleeved technology. Just want to hear about all these motors doing well and taking names in a constant hp, boost on/off track/street application.
BTW Chris doesn't run standard coolant with this application.
04-17-2008, 02:28 AM
#56
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Any reason for choosing MID over dry sleeve? From what I understand, you would need much greater clearances with MIDs than with dry sleeves due to the properties of the sleeves which may not be too good for a car that sees some street use as it will be very noisy until it is at operating temp.
04-17-2008, 06:20 AM
#57
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Because it's true. The MIDs are made of a very thick ductile iron that just doesn't expand like the stock blocks or thinner dry sleeves. The use of JE's is not a good option either. Definitely go for a less expansive piston or composition.
Here's an installation guide list as quoted from Chris on another forum. I think this is all good info and if I were to do another MID setup I would get one guy to do it from go to whoah and pretty much follow this guide.
"here is a list of stuff you want if you are going to get a vendor to do this for you.
True the block to the crank
Recenter the bore spacing
Use a crank centered mounting system (944 specific)
The machining has to be done by a CNC machine
Do not cut a lot of parent material in each pass makes too much heat.
Heat the block before installing the sleeves
Hold sleeves in jig overnight before final deck machining
Use a torque plate for the machining / honing process
Do not cut a lot of sleeve material in each pass makes too much heat.
Use a good honing machine with accurate width sensing the sleeves need specific honing so as not to taper
Match the cylinder finish to the use and to the rings
Thoroughly clean the block and oil galleys to get rid of all metal shavings
Check deck height to verify the piston to deck clearance
Chamfer the machined surfaces
Replace oil galley plugs
Make sure the pistons are correct (if you change the displacement the stock bowl cc will no longer be correct).
Set the piston to wall clearance correctly for the type of piston and its use
A little experience goes a long way.
If somebody will do this for a bunch cheaper they can have the work, I dont want to do cheap work, only good work. "
Chris White
Here's an installation guide list as quoted from Chris on another forum. I think this is all good info and if I were to do another MID setup I would get one guy to do it from go to whoah and pretty much follow this guide.
"here is a list of stuff you want if you are going to get a vendor to do this for you.
True the block to the crank
Recenter the bore spacing
Use a crank centered mounting system (944 specific)
The machining has to be done by a CNC machine
Do not cut a lot of parent material in each pass makes too much heat.
Heat the block before installing the sleeves
Hold sleeves in jig overnight before final deck machining
Use a torque plate for the machining / honing process
Do not cut a lot of sleeve material in each pass makes too much heat.
Use a good honing machine with accurate width sensing the sleeves need specific honing so as not to taper
Match the cylinder finish to the use and to the rings
Thoroughly clean the block and oil galleys to get rid of all metal shavings
Check deck height to verify the piston to deck clearance
Chamfer the machined surfaces
Replace oil galley plugs
Make sure the pistons are correct (if you change the displacement the stock bowl cc will no longer be correct).
Set the piston to wall clearance correctly for the type of piston and its use
A little experience goes a long way.
If somebody will do this for a bunch cheaper they can have the work, I dont want to do cheap work, only good work. "
Chris White
04-17-2008, 06:27 AM
#58
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Because it's true. The MIDs are made of a very thick ductile iron that just doesn't expand like the stock blocks or thinner dry sleeves. The use of JE's is not a good option either. Definitely go for a less expansive piston or composition.
Here's an installation guide list as quoted from Chris on another forum. I think this is all good info and if I were to do another MID setup I would get one guy to do it from go to whoah and pretty much follow this guide.
"here is a list of stuff you want if you are going to get a vendor to do this for you.
True the block to the crank
Recenter the bore spacing
Use a crank centered mounting system (944 specific)
The machining has to be done by a CNC machine
Do not cut a lot of parent material in each pass makes too much heat.
Heat the block before installing the sleeves
Hold sleeves in jig overnight before final deck machining
Use a torque plate for the machining / honing process
Do not cut a lot of sleeve material in each pass makes too much heat.
Use a good honing machine with accurate width sensing the sleeves need specific honing so as not to taper
Match the cylinder finish to the use and to the rings
Thoroughly clean the block and oil galleys to get rid of all metal shavings
Check deck height to verify the piston to deck clearance
Chamfer the machined surfaces
Replace oil galley plugs
Make sure the pistons are correct (if you change the displacement the stock bowl cc will no longer be correct).
Set the piston to wall clearance correctly for the type of piston and its use
A little experience goes a long way.
If somebody will do this for a bunch cheaper they can have the work, I dont want to do cheap work, only good work. "
Chris White
Here's an installation guide list as quoted from Chris on another forum. I think this is all good info and if I were to do another MID setup I would get one guy to do it from go to whoah and pretty much follow this guide.
"here is a list of stuff you want if you are going to get a vendor to do this for you.
True the block to the crank
Recenter the bore spacing
Use a crank centered mounting system (944 specific)
The machining has to be done by a CNC machine
Do not cut a lot of parent material in each pass makes too much heat.
Heat the block before installing the sleeves
Hold sleeves in jig overnight before final deck machining
Use a torque plate for the machining / honing process
Do not cut a lot of sleeve material in each pass makes too much heat.
Use a good honing machine with accurate width sensing the sleeves need specific honing so as not to taper
Match the cylinder finish to the use and to the rings
Thoroughly clean the block and oil galleys to get rid of all metal shavings
Check deck height to verify the piston to deck clearance
Chamfer the machined surfaces
Replace oil galley plugs
Make sure the pistons are correct (if you change the displacement the stock bowl cc will no longer be correct).
Set the piston to wall clearance correctly for the type of piston and its use
A little experience goes a long way.
If somebody will do this for a bunch cheaper they can have the work, I dont want to do cheap work, only good work. "
Chris White
04-17-2008, 06:29 AM
#59
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Because it's true. The MIDs are made of a very thick ductile iron that just doesn't expand like the stock blocks or thinner dry sleeves. The use of JE's is not a good option either. Definitely go for a less expansive piston or composition.
Here's an installation guide list as quoted from Chris on another forum. I think this is all good info and if I were to do another MID setup I would get one guy to do it from go to whoah and pretty much follow this guide.
"here is a list of stuff you want if you are going to get a vendor to do this for you.
True the block to the crank
Recenter the bore spacing
Use a crank centered mounting system (944 specific)
The machining has to be done by a CNC machine
Do not cut a lot of parent material in each pass makes too much heat.
Heat the block before installing the sleeves
Hold sleeves in jig overnight before final deck machining
Use a torque plate for the machining / honing process
Do not cut a lot of sleeve material in each pass makes too much heat.
Use a good honing machine with accurate width sensing the sleeves need specific honing so as not to taper
Match the cylinder finish to the use and to the rings
Thoroughly clean the block and oil galleys to get rid of all metal shavings
Check deck height to verify the piston to deck clearance
Chamfer the machined surfaces
Replace oil galley plugs
Make sure the pistons are correct (if you change the displacement the stock bowl cc will no longer be correct).
Set the piston to wall clearance correctly for the type of piston and its use
A little experience goes a long way.
If somebody will do this for a bunch cheaper they can have the work, I dont want to do cheap work, only good work. "
Chris White
Here's an installation guide list as quoted from Chris on another forum. I think this is all good info and if I were to do another MID setup I would get one guy to do it from go to whoah and pretty much follow this guide.
"here is a list of stuff you want if you are going to get a vendor to do this for you.
True the block to the crank
Recenter the bore spacing
Use a crank centered mounting system (944 specific)
The machining has to be done by a CNC machine
Do not cut a lot of parent material in each pass makes too much heat.
Heat the block before installing the sleeves
Hold sleeves in jig overnight before final deck machining
Use a torque plate for the machining / honing process
Do not cut a lot of sleeve material in each pass makes too much heat.
Use a good honing machine with accurate width sensing the sleeves need specific honing so as not to taper
Match the cylinder finish to the use and to the rings
Thoroughly clean the block and oil galleys to get rid of all metal shavings
Check deck height to verify the piston to deck clearance
Chamfer the machined surfaces
Replace oil galley plugs
Make sure the pistons are correct (if you change the displacement the stock bowl cc will no longer be correct).
Set the piston to wall clearance correctly for the type of piston and its use
A little experience goes a long way.
If somebody will do this for a bunch cheaper they can have the work, I dont want to do cheap work, only good work. "
Chris White
04-17-2008, 06:48 AM
#60
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Ehall, I appreciate what you're saying and with all due respect I also appreciate your allegiance to Chris, but I don't believe you have had a MID motor in your car (correct me if I'm wrong) The noise is largely to do with the JEs for one, but all the info that I have researched and let me tell you it was plenty, tells me that you do need to allow greater clearances with the MIDs no matter what piston composition you so choose. Especially if you do track the car. Hence the amount of 'cold slap' that you're faced with upon startup is unavoidable. I don't believe that Chris uses or recommends JEs as his first choice now either. Yes I realize that the dry Dartons are also made of ductile iron but are a lot thinner and don't need to bore away nearly as much parent material which also acts as heat soak, to be made into nice little shavings all over the floor.
I'm not trying to create any semblance of the 'MID wars' from before. I think that everyone has learned something from what we and others went through, and as I said, if I was to do it again I would follow Chris' guide aforementioned. Like many things in life, this was a steeeeep learning curve for me especially and I would prefer to be in someone elses shoes now to benefit from our experiences. There is more information out there on this matter out in the open which it wasn't before and if you so choose to research before going down this path now as well.
As for the owners of successful MID cars not wanting to reveal their identities, well I'm sorry but I just don't buy this excuse. There would definitely be more people speaking openly of their success with MIDs if they were out there. Sure perhaps there are some racers who choose not to reveal the makeup of their motors (although if they're dry or wet it shouldn't make any difference in my mind?), but we would see more evidence in various forums that some of us frequent of MID motors in the field. Let's face it, too many of us are too proud not to brag a little about our pride and joy to keep so quiet, no?
I am using Darton dry sleeves by the way now.
I'm not trying to create any semblance of the 'MID wars' from before. I think that everyone has learned something from what we and others went through, and as I said, if I was to do it again I would follow Chris' guide aforementioned. Like many things in life, this was a steeeeep learning curve for me especially and I would prefer to be in someone elses shoes now to benefit from our experiences. There is more information out there on this matter out in the open which it wasn't before and if you so choose to research before going down this path now as well.
As for the owners of successful MID cars not wanting to reveal their identities, well I'm sorry but I just don't buy this excuse. There would definitely be more people speaking openly of their success with MIDs if they were out there. Sure perhaps there are some racers who choose not to reveal the makeup of their motors (although if they're dry or wet it shouldn't make any difference in my mind?), but we would see more evidence in various forums that some of us frequent of MID motors in the field. Let's face it, too many of us are too proud not to brag a little about our pride and joy to keep so quiet, no?
I am using Darton dry sleeves by the way now.