NeoRules

Ummmm I might be able to find you a virgin.....

If I had the money I would let you build me a bottom end...
I know how hard it is to build a proper engine with steel, aluminum, and other dissimilar metals all trying to expand in different directions at different rates...
I blow things up regularly trying to "invent" a better mouse trap (or engine) all the time.
That is how I learned.
Now I have some knowledge that keeps my **** together for a while....
Not having built a MID sleeve engine I know the first time it is acceptable for me to screw the pooch and blow the thing up... I did that with my first Oldsmobile v8 build... How was I to know that the top end needed oil restrictors to keep the bottom end from starving? The way I learned was after blowing it up and then doing massive research (pre internet days mind you). It is all in the curve...
Ask a ricer how many engines he has damaged by getting a magazine and trying to replicate what he saw?
Just my 2Cents if you don't agree feel free to ignore me from now on.....
JC

George D

Quote: Oh yeah - as far as data for running MID engines - I won't bother with that since some folks will just label it as propaganda.

I find this very unlikely. I know it wouldn't come from me. I don't know of anyone that has anything to gain from such absurd tactics. I really want the MID process on our motors to be successful and stand the test of time.

It would be nice if someone running a MID 951 motor was on this list giving us some data.

Regards,

George

95ONE

The prices I quoted are without pistons...

Another thing about that.. Just an opinion about pistons here. Due to too many failures. I will never use JE pistons again. ever.
ROSS pistons are Great. here Lots of love for Wiseco. here Yes.. wiseco. Motorcycle people. But hey. So was Honda. They will make pretty much anything custom you want. Excellent service!
Arias last but had some luck with high power. But still had some failures that were common in the same spot.
Pauter Rods all the way. Crower top of the line forged. Manufactured in House. Not the overseas made which would be their econo rods. They break fast under decent power.

These are the company's I had to use to make Huge power. They performed time and time again. This might be dated though. There might be newer and better, but it's been a while since I've been in the game.

Wormhole

Chris is building me one now. I'm sure it will hold up to some serious track abuse, and I will be glad to report when it does to the community.

2bridges

One comment for consideration.

Wanting to have detailed info on who is running MID sleeved setup and longevity, etc. is understandable.

For those that seem to think because they are not posting on THIS FORUM somehow means there aren't any, are making a huge leap to that conclusion.

I am friends/acquaintances with a few 951 owners and racers in my area. None really spend much time on rennlist. This is where they look for parts, or sell parts, not where they spend much time socializing. Some serious racers and have $30K-$50K in each car. They would not bat an eye at the cost of a complete bottom end such as MID Chris offers. Quite frankly would not even care about all the tolerances and specs, just that is makes the desired power and is reliable.

Chris I commend you for not posting up specific numbers or customer info on MID setups you have sold/built. Must be tempting having at your fingertips, but you are taking the high road. You can bet your past customers appreciate it, and you future customers make note of your integrity.

Seriously people, how pissed off would you be as a customer to have some INTERNET FORUM have your personal info and/or your race car's detailed setup info... cmon people think

333pg333

"Specs are always provided - the engineering drawings for the sleeves were emailed and the pistons clearances were given. Pistion rings gapping info was provided with any pistons supplied.

I can't make people follow directions....as far as giving a complete detailed written description / directions of how to do what I do - why don't I just give away the farm? If I spell out in complete detail on how to do this, based the attitudes and past experiences with some listers, I might as well retire. There will be clones setting up web sites and selling cheap in a matter of days."

Hmm, this to me is a dichotomy. On one hand you're saying that all the correct info is provided, which it wasn't, then you're saying why should I tell you everything? I totally respect your right to the proprietary knowledge that you've acquired over all these years, and if you don't want to tell the internet world for fear of plagiarism that's totally fine too. The problem lies in if you are selling a product to other people to install that will cost them quite a few $$ in the process, then you have to give them a clear guide from step 1 to step finish. If you don't want to provide that then don't sell the kit uninstalled. Simple. I am not on this site to bust anyone's *****, especially someone doing work to extend the life and improve our cars and more power to you and anyone else doing the same. Great if you can make a small living out of it too. No problem contributing to the cause, and in turn getting an improved car. That's all I wanted.
2bridges, no-ones asking for detailed info to be broadcast for all and sundry to mimic. It's like John at Vitesse racing, he asks that all his customers keep certain facts about his products to themselves for the very same reasons. It has seemed to work pretty well so far. I believe that most of us who appear in this forum have shown integrity and if we are asked by the person selling us some products to keep schtum on some details we are happy to oblige. It's also part of owning that product too, knowing that not every or anybody can just come up with some cheap imitation after you've spent your hard earned on it.
Peace be with you all.

George D

Quote: Seriously people, how pissed off would you be as a customer to have some INTERNET FORUM have your personal info and/or your race car's detailed setup info... cmon people think

Almost ALL my Porsche motorsport dealings are not part of the Rennlist forum. When I go to a DE event, I hardly ever meet other Rennlist members. My current motor builder has probably done more (951) motors than any vendor on this list. Gomes might be the exception, but even he would vouch for the man doing my motor. Rennlist is a fraction of this small 951 community and at times some really good information is shared for the members to learn from. MOST of the 951 racing folks are NOT on Rennlist.

I am NOT asking anyone to tell me anything about their cars race spec setup. I don't give a ****. All I am interested in is whether so and so has a MID sleeved car running well at moderate boost levels.

My simple issue here was that NOT ONE OF THE VENDORS that have any history with these cars could tell me of a successful MID 951 motor in our cars.

Simple as that.

Thanks for all the input. Hopefully we will learn something about this new technology for our cars.

Regards,

George

2bridges

Hey 333pg333
Upon re-reading my post it is a bit more abrasive than intended. sorry bout that.
Nothing directed at you or anybody in particlular. Your posts have shown discression and integrity, especially considering you are out of pocket considerable $$$

When reading through some of the post i had flashbacks to the many vitesse threads where listers don't want to pay for the package and instead expect the detailed specifications so they can build it themselves cheaper.

Sounds like a few have come forward to be the community "guinnie pigs". To all involved best of luck.
_________________________________________________________________

Hey George - your fingers must be faster than mine. As indicated above I may have "read into" a few comments. perhaps I will now

JET951

although we havnt done many kms on our cars we are now running a fair bit of boost, Patrick with his 3 ltr is up on 1.3bar and i have run just on 1.2 bar, i have done about 800kms on this engine which is using the JE pistons. we did have the wossners 4032 alloy in the car for a little while and did over 1500kms with them, the only reason i changed them out was because we wanted to use the JE 2618 alloy because of its strength. the wossners 4032 alloy expand no where near the rate of the 2618 alloy of the JEs and this is where the problem lies. if any one need some help or advise with the clearances either PM me or send me an email at Buchananautomotive@hotmail.com
Sean

tommo951

Jon @ Indi9xx in UK has built a few 3.2's with Mids and I don't yet know of a failure on this side of the pond. I have been using MIDs in Jag V12 applications for quite a few years even an ill fated twin supercharged V12 for marine use and the Aston guys use them regularly in Alloy blocks.
Along the way of development there are lessons. Sounds like a few have learned the lessons on 951's and others are learning and either giving up or following a development path. I know Patrick has had some bad experiences but he knows the answers now or at least soem of the answers. If we are going to push the envelopes on these cars we need the likes of Vitesse, McGrath, White, Gomes, JME, Lindsey but we also need wrenchers like ST and a few others trying things and sometimes failing and sometimes winning. My next engine build will be a MID and I know it will be a bitch to get right but I believe it is the way forward

George D

Thanks Sean,

I hope your cars will be reliable and fast as hell. Did you have some noise with the Wossners after warmup? Hopefully you have the clearnace issues worked out with the JEs when hot. We would all hate to see you guys go through anything like you did again.

I felt sick when Patrick told me his story.

Best of luck to you guys!

Regards,

George

ehall

333pg333,
I'm just going to echo what 2bridges said very well above.
My only issue is that I feel that your expectations of Chris were errantly inflated. He's a builder and machinist of Porsche engines. The same guys, with only a couple of years of experience, at Brumos Porsche, charge 98.00+ U.S./hour for their time. If he didn't charge you that for his time and effort in shipping, I really think he did you a pretty nice favor, and in reality it cost him money because he wasn't building someone elses engine.
I fear from this thread that we have lost his services in that capacity in the future.
The other part is that if he gave you the specs, and the machine shop/builder couldn't get things to work, it's not his fault. He sold you parts and specs sheets, not his expertise. There isn't a decent engine builder around that will support a third party build. If Chris is at fault then why not Darton and JE? The reality is that they both provided the same thing but no one has said a word about blaming the two manufacturers for not walking through the proper install techniques. That doesn't seem remotely fair to Chris. Afterall, he was absolutely key in the development of Darton's MID sleeves for 944 applications. What is that expertise worth?
If you had sourced all of the parts, from various vendors, then had each ship them, how much more would it have cost you in shipping?
Anyway, that was my point in his defense. I have no problem with you personally. If it came off that way, I apologize.

"When reading through some of the post i had flashbacks to the many vitesse threads where listers don't want to pay for the package and instead expect the detailed specifications so they can build it themselves cheaper. "

Precisely 2bridges. The original poster is often involved in those threads.
Vic, that BS about me just taking your meaning wrong is just that BS, and you know it. This has been your M.O. for a long time.

333pg333

Ehall, no harm no foul. It's not that I was expecting Chris to do all the work and not get paid. I understand that he has done much R&D into the MID's and their application for our cars and I don't want anyone to stop anything on my account. I am only defending my position as the paying customer that had a failed engine. I am not an engineer nor a mechanic or a machinist. I pay these guys lots of $ to make my car go better. I never pointed the finger of blame at Chris 100% or anything like that. I also wanted to defend the guys who have worked on the car so far too. We aren't all dumb Aussie hicks throwing shrimps on the barbie mate. How much can a Koala bear. lol
Maybe it is better for Chris to sell a more complete package, then there can be no questions of who holds the Can and that would alleviate his frustrations at not having the control over the build.
By the way my car is running fine at the moment, and I'm off to the dyno to check it now in it's most sedate guise. Next will be with a big front mount i/c which I'll also get dyno'd, then with Dave's head/cam combo. So we will see things in stages which can be of benefit to some others I hope.

Randy V

333 - you got a name?

I'm going to request that you work this out with Chris directly, rather than in a public forum.

Feel free to PM me directly if you continue to feel you have been treated unfairly.

Closed.