aftermarket headers
07-24-2007, 11:34 AM
#16
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Th european car biuld up showed a loss of power with the B&B headers. If you need a cross over go with SFR as Lindsey does sell a cross over that I know of. if you are going to buy headers and the cross over from SFR I would buy the stage 2 because they come with a cross over and when you get the stage 1 headers and the cross over the price is realy getting up there and it would make sense to take advantage of thier sale right now on the stage 2 headers.
07-24-2007, 02:18 PM
#17
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Originally Posted by RKD in OKC
Who says LR's "Stock Replacement Headers" were not professionally designed?
I for one can guarantee Mike and Dave didn't design these themselves even though Mike is a pretty good fabricator and they were not put together by the local discount muffler shop guy either. And yes they addressed concerns of; expansion, temperatures and pressures in a turbo application, the aluminum head, collector efficiency, exhaust pulses, and increasing flow by reducing the bends as much as possible. As for the ease of installation the one piece head end flange makes putting the headers on the studs a whole bunch easier. If you don't like that they will cut the flange between the runners for you. After all, they are not meant to be the end all, be all, equal length headers, they are meant to be an affordable stock replacement improving on the stock manifold by taking advantage of modern one piece runner design.
I am not trying to bash SFR, and honestly when I found my stock headers were cracked at the welds and leaking I was planning to put SFR stage one headers on my 2.8 liter build. But when I saw the first prototype of the LR headers I held off my build to include them. To me, comparing the SFR stage one to the LR the SFR looks like welded together bits and pieces of tubing and elbows and LR looks professionally designed.
I honestly don't know 100% if the LR headers make power, suck power, or even whether or not they are going to crack and start leaking, what I do know is they were designed by an experienced header manufacturer to be better than stock, they sure am purdy ta look at, and they do make my car sound better.
I for one can guarantee Mike and Dave didn't design these themselves even though Mike is a pretty good fabricator and they were not put together by the local discount muffler shop guy either. And yes they addressed concerns of; expansion, temperatures and pressures in a turbo application, the aluminum head, collector efficiency, exhaust pulses, and increasing flow by reducing the bends as much as possible. As for the ease of installation the one piece head end flange makes putting the headers on the studs a whole bunch easier. If you don't like that they will cut the flange between the runners for you. After all, they are not meant to be the end all, be all, equal length headers, they are meant to be an affordable stock replacement improving on the stock manifold by taking advantage of modern one piece runner design.
I am not trying to bash SFR, and honestly when I found my stock headers were cracked at the welds and leaking I was planning to put SFR stage one headers on my 2.8 liter build. But when I saw the first prototype of the LR headers I held off my build to include them. To me, comparing the SFR stage one to the LR the SFR looks like welded together bits and pieces of tubing and elbows and LR looks professionally designed.
I honestly don't know 100% if the LR headers make power, suck power, or even whether or not they are going to crack and start leaking, what I do know is they were designed by an experienced header manufacturer to be better than stock, they sure am purdy ta look at, and they do make my car sound better.
If you look closely at our headers,you will see that the welding is kept to a minimum.We do weld the slip fits but only three off the four runners are welded together and there is only one weld on each of those three pipes.In my opinion, the Lindsey unit looks nice but they will crack at the merge very quickly. Since the flange is one piece as Tony mentioned, there is no room for expansion and contraction.This is why we kept each flange separate and used slip-fit collectors. One tube slips inside another tube.It allows for some expansion and contraction to take place without the use of a bellow.304SS will not be good on track cars either. It will crack in a pretty short amount of time. As far as the runners being all one piece,that is not really going to help longetivity.I have seen the pipes fail completely on headers that are all one piece.Perfect example is just about every header on Ebay.The
pipiing itself will crack and the welds will hold up.LOL.
07-24-2007, 08:50 PM
#19
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One other point I did not make.
Look at the thickness of the flanges used on the SFR headers (at the head and at the cross over). They are much thicker than anything else out there. This is for a reason. The thicker the flange, the less prone to warpage.
TonyG
Look at the thickness of the flanges used on the SFR headers (at the head and at the cross over). They are much thicker than anything else out there. This is for a reason. The thicker the flange, the less prone to warpage.
TonyG
07-25-2007, 01:44 AM
#20
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I could be wrong but I think we're overlooking an important point here. Forged collector vs two pipes welded together. Both are fine by me but traditionally, collectors have been considered superior from a performance standpoint. Still, I have to agree that the lindsey's are a very elegant piece.
Taken out of the context of our cars, 900+ bucks is a lot of money for a header, especially one that makes no serious claims of being superior to stock. Why are headers for our cars so ridiculously expensive? Sure some people will pay that much but I think that if some clever individual developed something closer to the $500-600 range, they would sell many times more (and become a hero in our community).
Taken out of the context of our cars, 900+ bucks is a lot of money for a header, especially one that makes no serious claims of being superior to stock. Why are headers for our cars so ridiculously expensive? Sure some people will pay that much but I think that if some clever individual developed something closer to the $500-600 range, they would sell many times more (and become a hero in our community).
07-25-2007, 08:03 AM
#21
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Originally Posted by RPHARRIS
Taken out of the context of our cars, 900+ bucks is a lot of money for a header, especially one that makes no serious claims of being superior to stock. Why are headers for our cars so ridiculously expensive? Sure some people will pay that much but I think that if some clever individual developed something closer to the $500-600 range, they would sell many times more (and become a hero in our community).
Tim's price is very fair.
07-25-2007, 08:17 AM
#23
Nordschleife Master
Also as Tony stated, if you want to make sure the headers don't crack sooner or later you must go with 321SS. 304SS on a turbo manifold will crack. For some people it may last long enough though to make up for the price. But it is a compromise..
If I were to make my own headers I would probably use mild steel instead.. Just coat them and they will last long enough and they're not that sensitive for expansion/cracking.
If I were to make my own headers I would probably use mild steel instead.. Just coat them and they will last long enough and they're not that sensitive for expansion/cracking.
07-25-2007, 09:04 AM
#24
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Evil-944
Made some good points about the cost of fabing a set of headers, I guess a lot of guys don't know what the cost is. Materials to make a set. Once youve done 20 sets it gets easyer to make them. Plus the guy has too make a profit to keep the shop open plus this 944 is a very small market to begin with. It seems like a lot of cash price them at porsche OEM nad see how much they are youed be suprised how much for a set of headers. I have seen SFR headers work of art.
No afflilation to SFR
Made some good points about the cost of fabing a set of headers, I guess a lot of guys don't know what the cost is. Materials to make a set. Once youve done 20 sets it gets easyer to make them. Plus the guy has too make a profit to keep the shop open plus this 944 is a very small market to begin with. It seems like a lot of cash price them at porsche OEM nad see how much they are youed be suprised how much for a set of headers. I have seen SFR headers work of art.
No afflilation to SFR
07-25-2007, 07:31 PM
#25
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How many hours should it take a tech to change the manifold and crossover? how about DIY? do you guys have any special tricks? such as remove passenger engine mount and jack side of engine.
is there any other way than spending $1000 to get a reliable setup to last a few years including track use?
is there any other way than spending $1000 to get a reliable setup to last a few years including track use?
07-25-2007, 08:33 PM
#27
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double nut the exhaust manifold studs to remove the manifold. You also will have to remove the coolant pipe above the header.
Whats wrong with your header, #2 runner cracked?
Whats wrong with your header, #2 runner cracked?
07-25-2007, 08:50 PM
#28
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Tony,
I certainly didn't aim nor intend on starting a vendor thread on their products, it's foolish old and boring (unless a vendor really screwed up big time over and over again). Now, i am no metal expert, or even an amateur, but when you mentioned that since LR use a 304SS in their headers, SFR also use 304SS (as one of their options, the other being 321SS), does that mean it will crack as well? i don't suppose so.
I see you're point regarding the thickness of the flanges, where they meet the cylinder head and x-over pipe. The SFR headers do appear to be much thicker than the LR ones, but pictures and angles could play around here, but i would say that the SFR ones are much thicker overall.
About all the flanges being welded on one plate, i thought that was actually a good idea, since that eliminates one flange to warp than another. It would also make decking easier (if needed), right?
I am not saying you are wrong, i am not supporting any vendor regarding who makes the best product out there, and you are right, the after market headers are all close in price, maybe a bit too close, which makes deciding harder.
The good about the SFR stage 1 is that it is dyno proven to gain torque across the rev band, now that doesn't mean the LR and B&B ones are bad now does it? it would be nice to have numbers, it is always nice.
I certainly didn't aim nor intend on starting a vendor thread on their products, it's foolish old and boring (unless a vendor really screwed up big time over and over again). Now, i am no metal expert, or even an amateur, but when you mentioned that since LR use a 304SS in their headers, SFR also use 304SS (as one of their options, the other being 321SS), does that mean it will crack as well? i don't suppose so.
I see you're point regarding the thickness of the flanges, where they meet the cylinder head and x-over pipe. The SFR headers do appear to be much thicker than the LR ones, but pictures and angles could play around here, but i would say that the SFR ones are much thicker overall.
About all the flanges being welded on one plate, i thought that was actually a good idea, since that eliminates one flange to warp than another. It would also make decking easier (if needed), right?
I am not saying you are wrong, i am not supporting any vendor regarding who makes the best product out there, and you are right, the after market headers are all close in price, maybe a bit too close, which makes deciding harder.
The good about the SFR stage 1 is that it is dyno proven to gain torque across the rev band, now that doesn't mean the LR and B&B ones are bad now does it? it would be nice to have numbers, it is always nice.
07-25-2007, 09:02 PM
#29
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Hussam
The 304SS SFR header will crack too. He only offers it so that he can sell a product "apples-to-apples" for people that think 304SS is fine. That's also why there's no warranty against cracking with the 304SS header :-) As it's been mentioned here... 321SS (or better) is the only way to go with a turbo header.
And... I know you didn't aim or intend to start a vendor war thread. I was pointing out some of the things that constitute a good header. Given that these are all expensive, some more than others, they should all have proper collectors, thick individual flanges, and be made out of premium materials.
>>>About all the flanges being welded on one plate, i thought that was actually a good idea, since that eliminates one flange to warp than another. It would also make decking easier (if needed), right?<<<
No. Individual is better (if there's room to have individual flanges). That way the header can move due to expansion and contraction.
As far as performance goes... I've never used the SFR1 or the Lindsay or the B&B. I've only used the SFR2. But the proper collector will help performance (to what degree on these short headers is another question...)
TonyG
The 304SS SFR header will crack too. He only offers it so that he can sell a product "apples-to-apples" for people that think 304SS is fine. That's also why there's no warranty against cracking with the 304SS header :-) As it's been mentioned here... 321SS (or better) is the only way to go with a turbo header.
And... I know you didn't aim or intend to start a vendor war thread. I was pointing out some of the things that constitute a good header. Given that these are all expensive, some more than others, they should all have proper collectors, thick individual flanges, and be made out of premium materials.
>>>About all the flanges being welded on one plate, i thought that was actually a good idea, since that eliminates one flange to warp than another. It would also make decking easier (if needed), right?<<<
No. Individual is better (if there's room to have individual flanges). That way the header can move due to expansion and contraction.
As far as performance goes... I've never used the SFR1 or the Lindsay or the B&B. I've only used the SFR2. But the proper collector will help performance (to what degree on these short headers is another question...)
TonyG