944T vs 3.2 brakes
03-07-2007, 04:06 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
Having been aware of Derek's career behind the wheel of p-cars for years, and having had the opportunity to meet him a few years ago - I certainly would never contradict his driving opinion. Nor would I ignore any comments from Bill Adam (the other pro-driver used for the article).
But for the purpose of a good discussion:
To put everything in context, it is a 19 year old article, written after a couple hours of test driving two completely stock cars from the press pool. And the only quoted comment from Derek regarding the brakes, pertained to the ABS system inspiring more confidence (or did I miss something else)? The only comment in the text about the braking was that the 930 was prone to locking an inside front wheel at the corner entries – which probably indicates the issue is more with the stock suspension allowing too much weight transfer for hard track use, rather than an inherent deficiency in the 930 braking system itself. Also, in the side by side comparison, both cars were rated the same (excellent) in all three braking categories.
Dont get me wrong here, I have been a big fan of the 944 series for years. And when I got started in this, I was convinced that the 944T (especially the TS) was the all around fastest Porsche in existence. And in many ways they were.
With street cars, with stock shocks, springs, alignments, tires and pads – yes, I don’t disagree that the 951 brakes are a newer and better system than a 3.2 Carrera (and I believe I tried to state that in my original post). And a Turbo S, with the M030 suspension and ABS controlled 928S4 calipers, is an excellent braking car – even compared to current sports cars.
However, I did not make my comment about 911 brakes out of hand. I have been DE'ing 944s since '92 and Club Racing since '99. I have learned the absolute hard way that trying to catch, or pass an equally classed 911 in the heavy braking zones is futile (especially on big tracks like Road America where brakes start to fade about mid-race) with a 944T (non-M030). The SCs weigh 400 lbs less, the 3.2s and 964 RSAs weigh 150-200 lbs less, the 964 C2s weigh a little more, but have the same brakes and better weight distribution for braking, so you cant overtake them either. If you have 911s on your *** at the end of a long straight, about all you can do is take a middle line into the corner and try keep the number of bug headlights that pass you, to a minimum. Turbo S/M030 caliper’d cars are better equipped to battle within the braking markers (one of the reasons the 944S2s and 968s are more successful/popular in PCA F-Class).
On a side note: many guys here on rennlist, think ABS is BS for a track car. But I am a big fan of ABS (as D. Bell mentioned in that article), and went to the trouble of retro-fitting a full ABS system onto my non-ABS optioned car. My desire to do this, was mainly caused by my failing attempts to play catch with 911s in braking zones.
I am assuming that the original question was for street cars, so much of my input relating to track cars is irrelevant. But I often see and hear comments from the 944 crowd about how 911s do not handle well, and now that their brakes can’t compare – but its not necessarily that cut and dry. There is a reason that Porsche continued to make the 911 for so long, and why they raced them for so many years, so successfully – its because those little eff’ers are pretty damn fast (in every direction).
But for the purpose of a good discussion:
To put everything in context, it is a 19 year old article, written after a couple hours of test driving two completely stock cars from the press pool. And the only quoted comment from Derek regarding the brakes, pertained to the ABS system inspiring more confidence (or did I miss something else)? The only comment in the text about the braking was that the 930 was prone to locking an inside front wheel at the corner entries – which probably indicates the issue is more with the stock suspension allowing too much weight transfer for hard track use, rather than an inherent deficiency in the 930 braking system itself. Also, in the side by side comparison, both cars were rated the same (excellent) in all three braking categories.
Dont get me wrong here, I have been a big fan of the 944 series for years. And when I got started in this, I was convinced that the 944T (especially the TS) was the all around fastest Porsche in existence. And in many ways they were.
With street cars, with stock shocks, springs, alignments, tires and pads – yes, I don’t disagree that the 951 brakes are a newer and better system than a 3.2 Carrera (and I believe I tried to state that in my original post). And a Turbo S, with the M030 suspension and ABS controlled 928S4 calipers, is an excellent braking car – even compared to current sports cars.
However, I did not make my comment about 911 brakes out of hand. I have been DE'ing 944s since '92 and Club Racing since '99. I have learned the absolute hard way that trying to catch, or pass an equally classed 911 in the heavy braking zones is futile (especially on big tracks like Road America where brakes start to fade about mid-race) with a 944T (non-M030). The SCs weigh 400 lbs less, the 3.2s and 964 RSAs weigh 150-200 lbs less, the 964 C2s weigh a little more, but have the same brakes and better weight distribution for braking, so you cant overtake them either. If you have 911s on your *** at the end of a long straight, about all you can do is take a middle line into the corner and try keep the number of bug headlights that pass you, to a minimum. Turbo S/M030 caliper’d cars are better equipped to battle within the braking markers (one of the reasons the 944S2s and 968s are more successful/popular in PCA F-Class).
On a side note: many guys here on rennlist, think ABS is BS for a track car. But I am a big fan of ABS (as D. Bell mentioned in that article), and went to the trouble of retro-fitting a full ABS system onto my non-ABS optioned car. My desire to do this, was mainly caused by my failing attempts to play catch with 911s in braking zones.
I am assuming that the original question was for street cars, so much of my input relating to track cars is irrelevant. But I often see and hear comments from the 944 crowd about how 911s do not handle well, and now that their brakes can’t compare – but its not necessarily that cut and dry. There is a reason that Porsche continued to make the 911 for so long, and why they raced them for so many years, so successfully – its because those little eff’ers are pretty damn fast (in every direction).
03-07-2007, 06:50 PM
#17
Burning Brakes
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Originally Posted by special tool
Please scroll down to the section on brakes in this article.
I don't think anyone on Rennlist has the ***** to contadict Derrick Bell, do they???
http://www.puppan.se/951vs930.htm
And this is against a 930!!!! Not the lowly little 3.2.
I don't think anyone on Rennlist has the ***** to contadict Derrick Bell, do they???
http://www.puppan.se/951vs930.htm
And this is against a 930!!!! Not the lowly little 3.2.
03-07-2007, 07:18 PM
#18
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Originally Posted by Bonestock951S
The S4 brakes began coming on 951's in 88 when they first made the Turbo S. The Turbo S was offered only in Silver Rose for the first half of the MY, then they offered the Turbo S in the normal color pallete for the rest of 88. If you have a non-S 951 from 88, then it has the standard 951 brakes, but of course if you have an S it has the S4 brakes. The S4 brakes were standard in the 89 MY.
-Darwin
(Some of that was common knowledge...I know...)
-Darwin
(Some of that was common knowledge...I know...)
The brakes on my S4 (four pot- factory Brembos) are amazing- I can only imagine how much better they'd be on a 951S which weighs several hundred pounds less than the 928.
03-07-2007, 07:20 PM
#19
Are we talking street or track? Pedal feel or braking ability? Repeated stops or just one?
All of this plays a role. Some have mentioned that the 944t brakes are more "modern"... what do you mean? Yes, some have ABS and that is certianly more modern, but 4 or more piston calipers pre date the 944t by more than a few years.....
I have both a 951 (87) and a carrera (84). Although the carrera is now pretty much a dedicated DE car and has Brembo GTP brakes. I have had one other 951 and 4 other 911's all with stock brakes.
The 951 has fantastic pedal feel, as does a 3.2, and both are vacuum boosted systems.
On the track my own personal experience with these cars is that as the session goes on the 951 is more likely to suffer from some fade or soft pedal from temps that the carrera is. That is generally speaking and all things being equal. Your experience may differ. Yes the 951 has a 28mm thick rotor vs the carrera's 24mm rotor but the 951 weighs a fair bit more. An SC with its 20mm rotor is another story.
On a single stop application one could dig back through their Road and Tracks or Car and Drivers to see which one prevailed.
On the street they both exihibit fantastic brakes.
Putting 951 calipers on a 911 while retaining the 24mm rotor is a complete waste of money. (same as a Boxster caliper). Upgrade to the 951 caliper and 28mm rotor (this can be done) and now you are moving in the right direction.
Cheers
All of this plays a role. Some have mentioned that the 944t brakes are more "modern"... what do you mean? Yes, some have ABS and that is certianly more modern, but 4 or more piston calipers pre date the 944t by more than a few years.....
I have both a 951 (87) and a carrera (84). Although the carrera is now pretty much a dedicated DE car and has Brembo GTP brakes. I have had one other 951 and 4 other 911's all with stock brakes.
The 951 has fantastic pedal feel, as does a 3.2, and both are vacuum boosted systems.
On the track my own personal experience with these cars is that as the session goes on the 951 is more likely to suffer from some fade or soft pedal from temps that the carrera is. That is generally speaking and all things being equal. Your experience may differ. Yes the 951 has a 28mm thick rotor vs the carrera's 24mm rotor but the 951 weighs a fair bit more. An SC with its 20mm rotor is another story.
On a single stop application one could dig back through their Road and Tracks or Car and Drivers to see which one prevailed.
On the street they both exihibit fantastic brakes.
Putting 951 calipers on a 911 while retaining the 24mm rotor is a complete waste of money. (same as a Boxster caliper). Upgrade to the 951 caliper and 28mm rotor (this can be done) and now you are moving in the right direction.
Cheers
03-07-2007, 11:08 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
I know a guy who used to race against Tiff Needell in the 80's and Tiff would shoot past him under brakes with his abs equipped 944t and Tiff said in a fairly recent episode of 5th gear that he would love to buy another 944t so that's pretty good praise too from someone who can drive a bit!
03-08-2007, 01:17 AM
#22
Originally Posted by pole position
The Boxster caliper is a monoblock caliper and not the same as the S4 unit but maybe you meant it is pointless with Boxster calipers as well.
Cheers
