Re-valve BILSTEIN's Or MOTON CLUBSPORT
03-07-2007, 11:45 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Under Pressure Performance
...The MOST important factor is how the car is to be used. That said, I would not suggest ANY remote reservoir setup for a strictly street car, especially when there are so many other decent options. However, in a car used primarily for DE/Track use but is driven occasionally on the street, well, that is a different story. It all depends where you are willing to make the compromises...
03-08-2007, 12:00 AM
#34
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by hot-J
Skip,
Whakiewes is fimilar with my setup which is 80% solid bushings, and MSPC's, all I run on the street...... So his evaluation is appropriate.
Whakiewes is fimilar with my setup which is 80% solid bushings, and MSPC's, all I run on the street...... So his evaluation is appropriate.
03-08-2007, 12:02 AM
#35
Originally Posted by Skip Wolfe
That's cool. As I said - I didn't mean to sound overly harsh even though it may have come across that way - the problem with the written word vs. the spoken word especially when written by an engineer. Whakiewes certainly seems to know his way around shocks, however for those who comes at this from a track/racing standpoint it is easy to get carried away with suspension setups and you can quickly get into something that is overkill for the street. Also triple adjustable shocks are not something that the inexperienced can easily figure out and properly tune for the street. I know experienced racers who still need the help of a race engineer to help them dial in their shocks.
03-08-2007, 01:39 AM
#36
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by hot-J
I too would need help. For instance, I cant find the diffrence between the V2's and V3's.......
V3's have adjustable compression and rebound damping
03-08-2007, 01:49 AM
#37
Addict
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Lifetime Rennlist
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Originally Posted by hot-J
I too would need help. For instance, I cant find the diffrence between the V2's and V3's.......
03-08-2007, 04:33 AM
#38
Rennlist Member
Hi guys, here is a cut and paste of a post I made on a different thread. Just trying to help you guys out. I contacted the Australian importer of KW's and said that there was perhaps a perceived lack of support for KW's in the U.S. He told me the name of the guy to contact. This was on a thread about Leda's which there seems to be a cloud over at the moment.
PS Blodstrupmoen, did you get that photo of my adj. camber plates I sent? What spring rates did you wind up getting for your 2-ways?
"I know this maybe bad for those who have or were looking to the Leda's, and hopefully some resolution can be found, but someone should kick KW's *** and get them moving in the U.S.
Edit: I've got the name of the guy to contact in the U.S. for KW's. He is based in California and his name is Glen Messinger.
http://www.kw-suspension.com/en/
I'm not saying don't pursue Leda's but if that proves to be a dead end then the KW's are a great product."
__________________
Kla strut brace and droplinks, KW custom 2-way race suspension w adj. camber plates, RacersEdge A-arms with solids and monos front and rear, billet hubs, solid rear sway bar brackets, Mo30 sways, Elephant Poly bronze bushes,
PS Blodstrupmoen, did you get that photo of my adj. camber plates I sent? What spring rates did you wind up getting for your 2-ways?
"I know this maybe bad for those who have or were looking to the Leda's, and hopefully some resolution can be found, but someone should kick KW's *** and get them moving in the U.S.
Edit: I've got the name of the guy to contact in the U.S. for KW's. He is based in California and his name is Glen Messinger.
http://www.kw-suspension.com/en/
I'm not saying don't pursue Leda's but if that proves to be a dead end then the KW's are a great product."
__________________
Kla strut brace and droplinks, KW custom 2-way race suspension w adj. camber plates, RacersEdge A-arms with solids and monos front and rear, billet hubs, solid rear sway bar brackets, Mo30 sways, Elephant Poly bronze bushes,
03-08-2007, 12:14 PM
#39
Originally Posted by 333pg333
PS Blodstrupmoen, did you get that photo of my adj. camber plates I sent? What spring rates did you wind up getting for your 2-ways?
,
,
The upper strut mount from Kw is a solid sperical mount.
The suspension I just ordered and 333pg333 has is this Kw competition
I talked to a guy @ Kw about how I intended to use the car, how much track use and what they had done to other 944Turbos . I choose a setup where i keep the torsion bars ( this will ofcourse include re-indeksing) .And with basis in the Nurenburgring (which is a bumpy track and the fact that the roads around here is bumpy as well ) I choose a bit softer setup with 80n/mm springs in front and 50N/mm in the back IIRC . The springs and valving could ofcourse be alterd later if wished .
The conntact @ Kw automotive motorsport department in DE is Michael Grassl - Michael.Grassl@KWautomotive.de
03-08-2007, 05:23 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
Yes I also dealt with Michael. He was pretty helpful too. From what I understand they're very busy at the moment as the popularity of their product has caught them unawares. Not sure about my email but that's ok so long as you got the pictures. I haven't had the car since November so I'd forgotten what the details of the camber plates were and as you saw they are solids. How long until you get your setup installed? You'll love them I'm sure.
03-08-2007, 09:26 PM
#42
Originally Posted by Skip Wolfe
I'm curious if you are coming at this from a track or street performance perspective. I just don’t see the bang for the buck to go with a $5k triple adjustable shock for a car that is primarily a street car. Putting a triple adjustable shock race shock on a car with street tires and stock based bushing is like putting lipstick on a pig. With street tires, and stock(ish) bushings, and the basic limits of how hard you can push your car on the street, there is not way you could even approach the capacity of an Ohlin, Penske, or any other full race shock. On top of that, 99% of the folks would have no idea how to properly tune a 3 way adjustable shock, or even a 2-way shock for that matter, especially on the street. I hear what you are saying about the Bilsteins, but recommending a $4k - $5k race shock as an alternative just doesn't make sense to me.
Also while I agree that remote reservoirs are just for show on a street/DE car, I don't agree with the statement of "I would venture to say that no amateur, not on a 14+ mile track, has ever overheated shocks period". Length of track doesn’t make any difference - it's length of time on the track, and I know some pretty damn fast amateurs - front runners in SCCA, NASA, and PCA/BMWCCA are not too far off the pro's.
Hopefully this post doesn't sound too harsh - it's not meant that way. I just don't quite agree with your recommendations for a primarily street driven 944.
Also while I agree that remote reservoirs are just for show on a street/DE car, I don't agree with the statement of "I would venture to say that no amateur, not on a 14+ mile track, has ever overheated shocks period". Length of track doesn’t make any difference - it's length of time on the track, and I know some pretty damn fast amateurs - front runners in SCCA, NASA, and PCA/BMWCCA are not too far off the pro's.
Hopefully this post doesn't sound too harsh - it's not meant that way. I just don't quite agree with your recommendations for a primarily street driven 944.
No offense taken. I completely understand everything that you were saying. Hot-J asked in reference to his car and we have spoken before in regards to suspensions and his particular car. I posted in reference to his setup and use.
You will find in my other posts I will admit that the Escorts felt wonderful for the street. They are stiff enough that they feel very sporty, and they do have a difference. My car came with Escorts, and I will admit when I first rode on them I was in love. They were perfect on the drive home, around town, etc... Albeit a bit harsh, but not bad.
Then I got started tracking with the 968. I kept having issues with the handling. I talked with hundreds, and I kid you not, hundreds of racers, tuners, builders, etc... I tried every suggestion, and again I mean every suggestion. I flopped spring rates to softer in the rear with no T-bars, adjusting the sway bar, alignment settings, ride height settings, etc... It was rediculous how much work I went through with no results. It was after I broke my Bilstein strut that I started asking OTHER questions. Not how to fix what I had, but why it didn't work in the first place and what I could do to resolve my issue permanently. The only Porsche specific shop I spoke with was Paragon products, mostly because I need some OEM parts and they had different suspension options than the rest. They didn't have too much information on their higher end 28 series struts, but referred me to the builder and thats when the truth started finally being spoken.
I will agree 100% that 90% of the users on this forum will ever need or know how to use a $5,000 suspension that I reccomended. In fact, I don't only reccomend the setups I listed. I love the cheaper Koni options, 8611 double adjustable front inserts with 3012 rear coilovers. I love KW Variant 3's...probably my most favorite all around suspension. The Ohlins 36HMRC/X setup isn't a $5,000 setup, closer to $3,000. If you want a lower, racier feeling street car, then the Escorts are probably perfect. Your friends, wife, mother, etc... will be impressed. If you want performance though, I really don't think you will be impressed...or atleast order your suspension from a reputable tuner/builder who has tested the setups the sell.
I was speaking in a street/track reference to Hot-J's car. His car has plenty of power, already mostly sorted in bushings/suspension, and he has the ambitions to push his car faster. In that reference, rebuilding the Escorts isn't going to give him what he wants IMO. In his heart he knows there is better out there
. Also to the overheating, I was saying that most DE's are 30 minute sessions and if you are overheating any performance shock you are driving the HELL out of your car...more so then I have ever seen from amateurs and professionals alike. There are also thousands of other factors which is why I said remote resevoirs should be viewed as an OPTION, not as an added factor. They aren't needed in majority of situations. As to the 14 mile tracks, they are at very high speed which is working the hell out of your shocks, so one hour of lapping on a track like the nurburing would be equivalent IMO to 2+hrs at a US based 2-3 mile track.Wes
03-08-2007, 09:34 PM
#43
Originally Posted by hot-J
This pisses me off, because the kit is so obviously flawed for what I needed............ But it was sold to me anyway. And Thanks to Scott Gomes, I now know MOTONS are not what I need either.......When I would have happily purchased them from him in a heartbeat if they wernt so high matinence.
KW V3's don't use the same aggressive valving as the 2 and 3-way race suspensions. They are a road shock, and are valved that way. You should see an easy 20k+ miles on a setup.
Wes
03-09-2007, 08:55 AM
#44
Nordschleife Master
IMHO the Bilstein shocks are good quality. A good suspension should be able to revalve the rear ones to match the front and make a balanced setup.
Of course there are better and more expensive setups available, but let's take one step at the time. And if you're only concerned about the front/rear match and balance revalving the rear shocks are a good way to start.
Of course there are better and more expensive setups available, but let's take one step at the time. And if you're only concerned about the front/rear match and balance revalving the rear shocks are a good way to start.