hot-J

I too run the rear sway on full soft... anything else theres way too much oversteer. I was thinking softer in the rear would fix it for me, but my car is mainly a street car on uneven roads.

reno808

For me they are expensive only becaues i go to school full time and the internship pay ok. Chris White is a Leda Rep if i am not misaken

blodstrupmoen

Compared to Bilsteins and konis they are expensive . I don`t know what Ledas run at , but that doesn`t matter cuz they have currently closed the shop .
So unless Mr.White has some in stock they would be hard to get by.

Btw for me the Kw`s are only a little more expensive than for instance the Bilstein escort . ( when adding shipping/handling and currency exchange)

Bri Bro

Your front to back ratio is near 0.5, the cars like .8 to .9. I would drop 100-150# off the front springs.
500 front effective = 470#
600 rear coil over, no T-bar, effective = 250#
That is a big difference!

Leda shocks are custom built to order, no warehousing going on so the pipeline is dry.

pole position

The Bilsteins were designed for all out racing on mostly smooth F1 tracks when the Cup was in full swing. Most of the development was done in Hockenheim. That was more than 20 years ago......and if Porsche would somehow resurrect the 951 Cup program with restored cars you can bet your bottom dollar that they would not use THAT outdated suspension technology. Most current users are running it because of price but you get what you pay for.

I will not make a suggestion where to get it done but a properly set up Moton / Penske / KW / Ohlins will result in a night and day handling difference in comparison to the Bilsteins but one HAS to spend some time with each system to get it correct, valving, rebound/comp settings and spring rates need to be optimized, most likely by trail and error because of a old chassis but in the end it will be well worth it. Not cheap, anywhere from 3-6k.

Duke

You are right, but the problem is that that will only make the oversteer scenario worse.

I got the same setup but has not tested it yet.
Only I'm running 450/650 springs (and 968 M030 sways).

After initial testing I will probably try out much much harder front springs.

Under Pressure Performance

Hot-J and anyone else concerned,

I have pretty much made Moton's my suspension of choice for these cars. Bang for the buck, they can't be beat in thier class (remote res, fully adjustable, exceptional workmanship, yadda, yadda)

That said, if they are within your budget, I wouldn't consider much else. However, there are other decent less expensive options from several vendors that are significantly less $$$ and do thier job relatively well, so the choice you make should be determined more by how the car will be used. My personal opinion is that if the car will see any track use, AND if you can swing the $$$, then Motons should be at the top of the list. It is what we use in our projects, and we only use what we feel works best for us.

That said, if anyone is considering a set of Motons, I would be more than happy to accomodate my fellow Rennlisters with a decent deal on a set.

Also, if anyone has any questions regarding the use, installation, technical aspects, or any other related issues, please feel free to contact me directly and, as always, I will be more than happy to help.

Scott

hot-J

Scott, stay out of my wallet!!!! LOL.... just kidding. Ya know.... I know what I want. MOTONS. I knew this when I posted this thread, and in hindsight, I should have purchased them instead of the Bilsteins in the first place.........

Under Pressure Performance

Well, as with many things, you should educate yourself before forking over any amount of money. Know the pros and cons of what you intend to buy. For example, it is also worth investing in a decent fill gauge to check and fill the shock reservoirs. It also makes sense to invest in a tank of nitrogen to fill the reservoirs instead of compressed air - That said, your investment of the Motons goes a little beyond just the shocks/struts themselves.

It makes perfect sense to work with, and/or purchase from, someone that has experience installing/tuning/adjusting Motons in these cars. Not only will you get the technical/support benefit, but you can also get yourself going with decent starting settings/pressures and decent spring rate advice as well.

Of course I am more than happy to help facilitate all the above, but feel free to purchase or turn to anyone you feel comfortable with. I am a Moton direct dealer and can assist in getting anyone interested up and running in short order.

Please keep in mind that Motons are NOT for everyone. They require attention that you may not consider before buying. Here's an example... You should periodically (I suggest often) check/refill the reservoirs to maintain the desired pressures. There are a few other things you should know before buying/installing Motons.

All said and done, they are STILL the only thing I consider worth every penny for track use. Without question they are hands down the best suspension setup you can run on the track for the money. They are not cheap, but comparatively they represent the best bang for the buck when compared to other more expensive units. They do not, however, provide a cost effective, or logical, replacement for most primarily (or exclusively) street driven cars. For such applications there are several vendors that offer high quality, cost effective, suspension setups that may be better suited for such applications. The good folks at either Paragon Products or Lindsey Racing immediately come to mind.

Hope this helps anyone considering a suspension upgrade.

Scott

whakiewes

This is what I have been saying for the longest time and no one has seem to understand yet. The shocks were designed when Bilstein still made F1 shocks. They were not designed for the street, and they don't have the valving to handle anything less than a perfectly paved road/track. The type of valving makes them nearly useless on the bumpiest tracks. The problem IMO starts with the front shocks, but the rear shocks end up causing the majority of the issues. I was on 600/180 front shocks, standard 565/218 rear shocks...the original Cup kit. The 300/150 ARE NOT street/track shocks, they are the Firehawk shocks. They were designed to be used with stock torsion bars and stiff firehawk shocks in the rear. Bilstein Racing offers two component sets, 600/180 front 565/218 rear Escorts Cups, and the 300/150 front and 400/200 rear as the Firehawk setup. Lindsey Racing, who I honestly believe has never driven on the setups the sell, decided to mis-match setups to sell to people as a more compliant Escort setup. What happens is people buy a completely unbalanced suspension because a vendor offers it.

The fact is, and no one that has switched over can argue, is that other suspension are far superior. I am not talking performance numbers, im talking all around. I am telling you that my 2812's with MUCH stiffer springs than I had on my Escorts rode BETTER than my Escorts. Ask any suspension tuner and they will tell you that springs are what make a car stiff, not shocks, but once you make the switch you will relize that the Escorts are so far off that anything is better. There is no valving adjustments you can do to the Escorts to get them right, its just how much your amateur status can take...really amateur and they will see like the best, but the second you ride in a car iwth a real suspension or become more advanced you will clearly see the flaws.

I don't personally like the Motons. They are made by JRZ, and the company in general doesn't have the best track record for reliability. I think for the price you can get better shocks (not nessacarily more options like remote resevoir). Also keep in mind the adjustment factor of remote resevoirs is neglegable because any of the shocks in that price range with either be remote or have top mount adjustments for both compression or rebound; thus the only thing you gain is a better cooling factor but in all honesty we aren't racing on the Nurburing or LeMans so I don't think we have much to worry about. DE are 30 minute sessions typically which isn't enough to overheat good shocks built right. I would venture to say that no amateur, not on a 14+ mile track, has ever overheated shocks period.

My vote is to trash the Bilsteins, buy something quality and you will really start to be able to feel what the 944 chassis is capable of. Look at Ohlins 36HMRC or HMRX, Ohlins 46HMRX if your willing to go up to the $5k range, Penske 8300's, KW 2-way or 3-way (V3's if you are mostly street with SOME track), or Koni 2812's. The Clubsports are nice, but like I said I think you can get a better shock for the money they charge.

Wes - be happy to hook anyone up with my connection on shocks which has all of my TESTED valving specs for different shocks.

hot-J

This pisses me off, because the kit is so obviously flawed for what I needed............ But it was sold to me anyway. And Thanks to Scott Gomes, I now know MOTONS are not what I need either.......When I would have happily purchased them from him in a heartbeat if they wernt so high matinence.

RolexNJ

hot-J:

I'll add my 2 cents, but make this short and not a long dissertation. Do a lot of research on Rennlist and PM people you "truly" trust. Then take a serious look at the KW Variant 2 or 3 Way. Based on your budget, usage, and driving experience it is an excellent option to look into pal. If you have questions, ask people who use this set-up, like Patrick (333pg333), who's on here and how much he loves his KW 2 Ways! I think the KW Variant 3s are looking pretty good myself.



http://www.kw-suspension.com/en/30_P...vers/index.php

hot-J

Yes, this is looking like a more attractive setup by the minute...literaly! I gotta give
whakiewes props... he tried to tell me, and even offeres me his setup at a good price, but I didnt take it to heart......

Under Pressure Performance

I pretty much agree with most input in this thread. There is certainly a lot of good information here and this should prove informative to anyone looking to upgrade ones suspension.

As I said earlier, Motons are not for everyone, nor are any other strut/shock for that matter. The MOST important factor is how the car is to be used. That said, I would not suggest ANY remote reservoir setup for a strictly street car, especially when there are so many other decent options. However, in a car used primarily for DE/Track use but is driven occasionally on the street, well, that is a different story. It all depends where you are willing to make the compromises.

Hope this helps.

Skip Wolfe

I'm curious if you are coming at this from a track or street performance perspective. I just don’t see the bang for the buck to go with a $5k triple adjustable shock for a car that is primarily a street car. Putting a triple adjustable shock race shock on a car with street tires and stock based bushing is like putting lipstick on a pig. With street tires, and stock(ish) bushings, and the basic limits of how hard you can push your car on the street, there is not way you could even approach the capacity of an Ohlin, Penske, or any other full race shock. On top of that, 99% of the folks would have no idea how to properly tune a 3 way adjustable shock, or even a 2-way shock for that matter, especially on the street. I hear what you are saying about the Bilsteins, but recommending a $4k - $5k race shock as an alternative just doesn't make sense to me.

Also while I agree that remote reservoirs are just for show on a street/DE car, I don't agree with the statement of "I would venture to say that no amateur, not on a 14+ mile track, has ever overheated shocks period". Length of track doesn’t make any difference - it's length of time on the track, and I know some pretty damn fast amateurs - front runners in SCCA, NASA, and PCA/BMWCCA are not too far off the pro's.

Hopefully this post doesn't sound too harsh - it's not meant that way. I just don't quite agree with your recommendations for a primarily street driven 944.