RolexNJ

I've been doing a lot of research regarding brakes lately, especially as it pertains to my car for the future. I know there are some people on here who think they fully understand the costs and benefits, but I wanted to reach out to a race expert within the community for some hands-on usage. So after so much research, I found a wonderful Moderator in the GT-2 forum who has been using them for a long time, and know several racers who do too. That said, I think it's fair to say that his credentials are welcomed here to the 944T people. His name is Bob, and he was kind enough to share with me via PM his experiences. So with his permission, I am posting for all to see what his comments were. Please see below. I hope this helps to shed some light onto this topic. If you want more information, I am sure Bob wouldn't mind helping you out. But I will try and see if he would answer some Q & As for us here. Either way, it is valuable information for those who seek knowledge on this state of the art technology from a seasoned racer.

Cheers,





12-05-2006
Bob Rouleau
Moderator
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Montreal
Posts: 3,487

Ceramic Composite Brakes

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RolexNJ and I have had PMs on the subject and he asked if I would post part of the thread here.
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Happy to offer my advice. I had PCCB on my 996GT2. I drove it hard and did a lot of track days. That's why I bought it in the first place.

The PCCB started to fail after only a dozen track days. I was able to keep them alive by changing pads every event. That's a pretty costly way to keep the rotors alive! After about 12,000 miles (mostly track) the rotors were toast and would cost 32,500 US to replace. I switched to GT2 steel brakes and never looked back.

The Gen II PCCBs are better. Not perfect, better. Many of the GT3 Super Cup teams have switched back to steel (permitted) because the additional cost does not convey an equivalent benefit. Given how competitive SuperCup is (identical cars) I imagine that PCCB did not give much of an advantage on the track.

On my GT2, Pagid RS 19s (or 29s) with steel rotors and Motul 600 fluid gave me braking performance which was as good as the Gen I PCCB. When I bought a GT3 is went for steel. My new RS will have steel.

Steel rotors are inexpensive. You have a huge assortment of pads whereas Gen II rotors have two, one street, one racing.

No rotors have a warranty and PCCB won't last long enough to justify the absurd price.

I full agree with Stoptech - Ceramic hybrids like PCCB are not ready for prime time yet. Stick with proven technology. I also agree that a good steel rotor system will provide superb braking performance. The GT3 Cup system ( same the the GT3 road car) or the newer 997 GT3 system with 380MM fronts and 350 rears will slow you down like the hand of God!

FWIW, Ferrari Challenge cars come with Ceramics and my partner (three times North American champion this year) hates them. They have to be replaced every 1500 KM or you don't race. What does that tell you? If you have an 'off' they crack in the gravel. That changes a harmless mishap into a very expensive replacement.

Best,
__________________
Bob
Frozen North Rep & ceramic rotor roaster
Hey, wait for me! racing.

Guns951

Wonderful stuff! Great to hear first hand experiences from such a seasoned racer.

Hopefully costs will drop way down in the future where cost isn't so much of an issue, however their fragileness will always be a factor I believe.

Thanks Rolex!

Olli Snellman

I suppose those Ferraris use the same calipers as Porsche does, but are those rotors made by some other vendor? There are occasionally complete used "kits" of PCCB for sale at least on German Ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.de/Porsche-996-GT-2-...QQcmdZViewItem

I have bought two sets of GT2 front calipers and several sets of GT3 front & rear calipers from him

SoloRacer

I had read that for most the costs of the PCCB's far outweighed any performance benefits. Looks like Bob and others confirm that sentiment. Wonder why Porsche seems to be pushing them. Could it be that there is a huge mark up on them so profit wise it's worthwhile for Porsche to get people on board? Just wondering since it seems like all the high dollar models seem to show up with them.

Bob Rouleau

The Ferrari Ceramics are branded Brembo but who knows who makes the rotors. The rotors on the Ferrari seem to stand up better than the Porsche Gen 1 versions. I suspect it is because the 996 model (Gt2 and 3 included) had cooling issues. The 997 delivers a lot more cooling air to the rotors.

The 430 Challenge race car comes with ceramics and you are not allowed to replace them with steel. At the start of the 2006 season, you were obliged to replace them every two races! If you did not pick up your new rotors (serial numbered) and use them, you were DSQ. As the season went on the mandatory replacement rule was eased to 1500 KMs or about 900 miles between replacements. Hardly inspiring..and a front set cost 23K.

Best,

whakiewes

More so than all this talk about PCCB, what makes F1, Indy, ALMS ceramics so much superior? They undergo up to 24hrs of abuse, up to 1500 or so miles, etc... Seems that rotors that can stand that constant abuse could be adapted for the street, or am I missing something? I think for the most part, the biggest player on ceramics is cost. At the current cost of $8k a rotor, it does a lot to the club racers pocket to replace these every 10k miles or less. I also don't see every 996GT3 owner having $20k liquid sitting around. Some, probably most, but not everything could swing a rotor/pad job on a PCCB equipped car.

The brochure I had from the 996 2004 GT3 stated that ceramics have no shorter stopping distances, but offers more reliable, better braking. This is furthered by stating that they last something like 5X the lifespan of steel rotors. Seems that PCCB is hit and miss on most cars, with avid trackers being most of the misses.

Wes

RolexNJ

Bob: Thanks for the input, and helping to give some clarification to this topic. I know you have used them and several people you know too, so, you speak from personal experience. I too also know people who've done the Ferrari Challenge in the 360s, and all stated what you said.

Cheers,

Porschefile

Thank you for your first hand experience Bob! It's always nice to hear these things from someone that has already been there.

RolexNJ

So you see Travis, you can learn something too my friend from an "expert", even if he isn't a ricer guy like you.

Cheers.

Porschefile

Hmm, this must be the reason you and Todd have such a large post count!

RolexNJ

We like to post, but we don't write Phd. dissertations. Peace!

951and944S

My $.02 - if stock turbo brakes or the M030 upgrades provide sufficient braking and don't overheat during the length of whatever a "normal" session may be, then why spend ungodly amounts of money on overbraking your car....?

After 20 full tilt laps and you're brakes can still lock up the tires, then what are you gaining by overbraking the car with big reds or ceramic brakes when the limit of your braking is going to boil down to the ahesion between your tire and the tarmac...?

The SPEC guys run the factory single piston calipers on 944s at tracks like Daytona for 1.5 hour enduros. Anything more than S4 calipers on a 951 is overkill imo.

TS

Chris White

You need a ride in a fast 951.....

RolexNJ

Well, that can be argued about the stock brakes and the M030 brakes, to many variables to consider (duration, track speeds, driver abilities, etc). And I can say that from personal experience as a racer, and yes, having pushed the limits of the M030 brakes too. Anyway, my point pertains to my car, which should make more RWHP than just a regular 951. Hence, why I did the research. And no one is saying to go with PCCB, in fact, I suspect that Big Reds would be more than sufficient for a lot of people. I just took it upon myself to talk to an expert about this new cutting-edge technology.



EDIT: Chris, good point too --->

951and944S

Erm, no.....I don't.

Care adressing the fact that factory S4 brakes can activate abs on race slicks or that non-abs cars can lock the wheels on track tires at 9-10 inch front widths with race Toyos or Hoosiers at the end of a 90 minute enduro...?

The point to your quip is exactly what...., that larger brakes are going to mysteriously improve the limiting factor of tire adhesion....?

TS