Garrett Gt35r Install
12-05-2006, 01:29 AM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Garrett Gt35r Install
Well, I promised I was going to post a write-up about this so here it is! I'm sure this is going to be spread over a decent amount of time, so please be patient with me as I update the post. Ideally, I will continually update this post with new information on potential fitment issues, new mods performed, etc. Also, ideally, I will finish the post out with some final dyno charts on my built motor, that will hopefully meet all of the goals I have set forth with my project. Ultimately the point of the entire post is to provide more information to you all on the Garrett GT series turbos, and to provide more application specific real world results to show what's possible with these turbos and how it applies to/affects our cars. There are plenty of people in the non-944 community using these turbos, so there is plenty of information and dyno charts out there to get a general idea on the performance capabilities these turbos will have with our cars. However, due to many important variables such as head design/efficiency, nothing beats real results on the same model car to tell you how things actually work. Here are the intial details:
Turbocharger installation components:
-Garrett Gt35r (Gt3582r)
-.82 Gt exhaust housing (converted to v-band by SFR)
-T04S compressor housing (4" inlet, 2.5" outlet)
-SFR 3" stainless v-band turbo elbow
-SFR 3" stainless v-band downpipe
-SFR 3" stainless high flow cat & 3" stainless catbypass pipe
-SFR stainless braided oil line with restrictor
-SFR stainless v-band 2 piece crossover pipe
I sourced all of these pieces from Tim @ Speed Force Racing The first thing I should mention is that because I am keeping my a/c system and since I purchased the turbo with the optional T04S housing, there is probably going to be a fitment issue with the stock intake manifold. I will update you all on potential fitment issues of components such as this. I am going to look into the possibility of making simple modifications or a flange spacer for the intake to use it with the T04S housing, though I can't promise that it will work. Generally, the T04E 3" housing, that Tim sells these with standard, will fit under the intake and provide much more room. Due to the high power level I am aiming for, I see the T04S housing as a necessary upgrade to reduce airflow restriction. The T04E 3" will work perfectly fine for most people's goals and still be good for considerable horsepower levels. I opted for the .82 exhaust side as it is absolutely necessary at these higher horsepower levels to reduce backpressure significantly. IMO, the .63 exhaust side would be a bit of a waste on a Gt35r, and a smaller turbo like the Gt3076r might be a better option. I can go into more detail on things like that if anyone would like to in the future.
Here's the official Garrett website link: Gt35r Tech Info
The technical aspects:
Compressor - 61.4mm Inducer, 82.0mm Exducer, 56 Trim, 0.70 A/R Compressor Map
Turbine - 68.0mm, 84 Trim Turbine Map
Airflow volume rating - 61lb/min, approximately 600fwhp
Generally, Garrett is fairly conservative with their ratings. Though they rate the Gt35r at 600 flywheel horsepower, countless numbers of people with a large variety of cars and motor designs have pushed these turbos well past the 600 REAR wheel horsepower mark. To date, I am not aware of anyone that is using one of these on a 2.5l 944, and certainly not at that high of a power level. There are several people in our community that are using various other Garrett GT series turbos on their 951's, and I would like to invite them to join in on this thread to help increase our knowledge about these turbos. Thanks, in advance, to any of you that do take the time to add to this thread. I'm not a retailer and have absolutely no plans of becoming one. I'm simply trying to do my part to add something worthwhile to the community.
Ultimately my goal is to hit 600rwhp with this turbo setup. I am beginning this setup on a 100% stock 951 2.5l motor as a placeholder while I build another motor. It will be a significant amount of time until I have the second motor built. though I do still plan on trying some things out with my stock motor. I plan on dyno testing quite a few components with the stock motor such as the effects of a high flow catalytic converter as well as a cat-bypass, stock intake manifold vs. a modded stock intake (larger throttle body, possible internal work, etc), improvements over a stock intercooler & stock IC pipes vs. larger units, etc. Of course results will vary with different sized turbo setups, so my results won't necessarily be the same as or even apply to quite a few people. I simply want to do this to throw some more data into the forum as to the kind of improvements some of these components can have with larger turbo setups.
As far as my engine build goes, I think I might create another thread for that topic though I am considering keeping that information within this thread. I haven't made up my mind yet, and that point is far enough away that I am going to start off focusing this thread on installation. Once I get to that point, I will delve more into my engine build and the components I personally feel will be necessary to reliably withstand the 600+rwhp level.
I just received some of my components today, and I should have the rest shortly. I should be starting in with the installation this weekend or the next, at which point I will post more info/pics. Until then, here's a few to get the ball rolling:
Turbocharger installation components:
-Garrett Gt35r (Gt3582r)
-.82 Gt exhaust housing (converted to v-band by SFR)
-T04S compressor housing (4" inlet, 2.5" outlet)
-SFR 3" stainless v-band turbo elbow
-SFR 3" stainless v-band downpipe
-SFR 3" stainless high flow cat & 3" stainless catbypass pipe
-SFR stainless braided oil line with restrictor
-SFR stainless v-band 2 piece crossover pipe
I sourced all of these pieces from Tim @ Speed Force Racing The first thing I should mention is that because I am keeping my a/c system and since I purchased the turbo with the optional T04S housing, there is probably going to be a fitment issue with the stock intake manifold. I will update you all on potential fitment issues of components such as this. I am going to look into the possibility of making simple modifications or a flange spacer for the intake to use it with the T04S housing, though I can't promise that it will work. Generally, the T04E 3" housing, that Tim sells these with standard, will fit under the intake and provide much more room. Due to the high power level I am aiming for, I see the T04S housing as a necessary upgrade to reduce airflow restriction. The T04E 3" will work perfectly fine for most people's goals and still be good for considerable horsepower levels. I opted for the .82 exhaust side as it is absolutely necessary at these higher horsepower levels to reduce backpressure significantly. IMO, the .63 exhaust side would be a bit of a waste on a Gt35r, and a smaller turbo like the Gt3076r might be a better option. I can go into more detail on things like that if anyone would like to in the future.
Here's the official Garrett website link: Gt35r Tech Info
The technical aspects:
Compressor - 61.4mm Inducer, 82.0mm Exducer, 56 Trim, 0.70 A/R Compressor Map
Turbine - 68.0mm, 84 Trim Turbine Map
Airflow volume rating - 61lb/min, approximately 600fwhp
Generally, Garrett is fairly conservative with their ratings. Though they rate the Gt35r at 600 flywheel horsepower, countless numbers of people with a large variety of cars and motor designs have pushed these turbos well past the 600 REAR wheel horsepower mark. To date, I am not aware of anyone that is using one of these on a 2.5l 944, and certainly not at that high of a power level. There are several people in our community that are using various other Garrett GT series turbos on their 951's, and I would like to invite them to join in on this thread to help increase our knowledge about these turbos. Thanks, in advance, to any of you that do take the time to add to this thread. I'm not a retailer and have absolutely no plans of becoming one. I'm simply trying to do my part to add something worthwhile to the community.
Ultimately my goal is to hit 600rwhp with this turbo setup. I am beginning this setup on a 100% stock 951 2.5l motor as a placeholder while I build another motor. It will be a significant amount of time until I have the second motor built. though I do still plan on trying some things out with my stock motor. I plan on dyno testing quite a few components with the stock motor such as the effects of a high flow catalytic converter as well as a cat-bypass, stock intake manifold vs. a modded stock intake (larger throttle body, possible internal work, etc), improvements over a stock intercooler & stock IC pipes vs. larger units, etc. Of course results will vary with different sized turbo setups, so my results won't necessarily be the same as or even apply to quite a few people. I simply want to do this to throw some more data into the forum as to the kind of improvements some of these components can have with larger turbo setups.
As far as my engine build goes, I think I might create another thread for that topic though I am considering keeping that information within this thread. I haven't made up my mind yet, and that point is far enough away that I am going to start off focusing this thread on installation. Once I get to that point, I will delve more into my engine build and the components I personally feel will be necessary to reliably withstand the 600+rwhp level.
I just received some of my components today, and I should have the rest shortly. I should be starting in with the installation this weekend or the next, at which point I will post more info/pics. Until then, here's a few to get the ball rolling:
Last edited by Porschefile; 12-06-2006 at 03:15 AM.
12-05-2006, 01:41 AM
#2
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Originally Posted by Porschefile
Well, I promised I was going to post a write-up about this so here it is!
Ultimately my goal is to hit 600rwhp with this turbo setup. I am beginning this setup on a 100% stock 951 2.5l motor as a placeholder while I build another motor. I plan on dyno testing quite a few components with the stock motor such as the effects of a high flow catalytic converter as well as a cat-bypass, stock intake manifold vs. a modded stock intake (larger throttle body, possible internal work, etc), improvements over a stock intercooler & stock IC pipes vs. larger units, etc. Of course results will vary with different sized turbo setups, so my results won't necessarily be the same as or even apply to quite a few people. I simply want to do this to throw some more data into the forum as to the kind of improvements some of these components can have with larger turbo setups.
Ultimately my goal is to hit 600rwhp with this turbo setup. I am beginning this setup on a 100% stock 951 2.5l motor as a placeholder while I build another motor. I plan on dyno testing quite a few components with the stock motor such as the effects of a high flow catalytic converter as well as a cat-bypass, stock intake manifold vs. a modded stock intake (larger throttle body, possible internal work, etc), improvements over a stock intercooler & stock IC pipes vs. larger units, etc. Of course results will vary with different sized turbo setups, so my results won't necessarily be the same as or even apply to quite a few people. I simply want to do this to throw some more data into the forum as to the kind of improvements some of these components can have with larger turbo setups.
12-05-2006, 02:12 AM
#6
Burning Brakes
First off I'd just like to say that this is a great thread and your doing a great service to the Rennlist community by sharing your first hand experiences. Ever since I did my GT installation I've had thoughts of making a documentary but never got around to doing so. As this thread matures I'd be glad to interject this some of the knowledge I've obtained since converting to a GT30R.
Now I must say I have to second your thoughts regarding potential fitment issues with the factory AC in place and a 4" inlet. I initially started down that same path. But once I ran into the expected fitting issues I decided the AC wasn't worth the additional effort. I guess I took the low road, but there were already enough other obstacles to overcome.
Since you didnt picture the bottom part of the center section you got me thinking about mounting it. My guess since your GT came from SFR Tim has already adapted the center section with a suitable mount to connect to the engine turbo mount. This would elevate the need to engineer a adapter (which in my case I had to do). I have Auto CAD drawings of it somewhere, so when you get to that point I'll try to post them up.
This thread is exciting!
Now I must say I have to second your thoughts regarding potential fitment issues with the factory AC in place and a 4" inlet. I initially started down that same path. But once I ran into the expected fitting issues I decided the AC wasn't worth the additional effort. I guess I took the low road, but there were already enough other obstacles to overcome.
Since you didnt picture the bottom part of the center section you got me thinking about mounting it. My guess since your GT came from SFR Tim has already adapted the center section with a suitable mount to connect to the engine turbo mount. This would elevate the need to engineer a adapter (which in my case I had to do). I have Auto CAD drawings of it somewhere, so when you get to that point I'll try to post them up.
This thread is exciting!
12-05-2006, 02:40 AM
#7
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by TRP951
Yeah there is a guy near me running this turbo on his civic and it dynoed at 653whp.
Thanks for the compliments Dave, you are correct about the center section mods. Basically a fabricated flange for the mount was welded onto the center section. Also, an additional aluminum spacer was supplied as well to take up the extra "slack" between the mount and center section. I'm not entirely sure why Tim went this route, though I'm sure that the unattached aluminum spacer provides some "room" to work with in case someone's components like the turbo mount aren't 100% the same width as stock.
Just curious Dave but, do you know exactly what size turbo yours is? Gt3076r or 3071r maybe? How about the hotside size? .63 or .82 maybe? What type of spool do you see? Have you ever dyno'd your car? Sorry to ask so many questions.
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12-05-2006, 03:40 AM
#8
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by Porschefile
Basically a fabricated flange for the mount was welded onto the center section. Also, an additional aluminum spacer was supplied as well to take up the extra "slack" between the mount and center section.
Do you know exactly what size turbo yours is? Gt3076r or 3071r maybe? How about the hotside size? .63 or .82 maybe? What type of spool do you see? Have you ever dyno'd your car?
Do you know exactly what size turbo yours is? Gt3076r or 3071r maybe? How about the hotside size? .63 or .82 maybe? What type of spool do you see? Have you ever dyno'd your car?
Turbo: GT3076r aka GT30R
General Turbine Housing: K24/K26
Anti-Surge Equipped: No
Turbine:
Wheel: 60mm with 84 Trim
Housing: .63 a/r
Compressor:Housing: .63 a/r
Wheel: 76.2mm with 56 Trim
Housing: .60 a/r
I haven't dynoed my car to date although I would like to in the future. Now to be completely honest I haven't driven my car since September Housing: .60 a/r
(Not fun being away from it) so I can't recount the exact RPM and gearings that I develop full boost by [And sadly I cant seem to find a record on my computer]. I'll be able to see the car again in 2 weeks, at which time (weather permitting) I'll make a point to note that information. I don't know if now is a good time to mention my not so pleasant experience with Tim's adapter design or not. But I guess the information will only help people. So in short it failed (One of the welds let go on the adapter) leaving me with an adapter-less turbo . Thankfully this happened during installation and not while the car was in use. Hopefully my situation was a isolated occurrence but I wasn't going to take any chances. I decided to go with a design which I felt would be stronger. I've attached a copy of my design here. I believe all the measurements and comments are correct except on the Z stud where it says "1/2 adapter thickness" that should actually be the entire adapter thickness.
The "Z" shaped stud makes for an interesting installation. Aligning the studs correctly and then fitting the adapter plate over them using a sealant to ensure a leak proof gasket between the turbo center section & adapter plate.
Last edited by Dave951; 12-05-2006 at 03:57 AM.
12-05-2006, 05:51 AM
#9
Rennlist Member
Great work Travis, I will be using this post as a reference during it's course. Best of luck here and thanks for the service you're providing for those that are interested in the GT turbos.
May your hurdles be low.
May your hurdles be low.
12-05-2006, 05:57 AM
#10
Originally Posted by TRP951
Yeah there is a guy near me running this turbo on his civic and it dynoed at 653whp.
(about as often as mine)
12-05-2006, 07:52 AM
#12
Originally Posted by Porschefile
Well, I promised I was going to post a write-up about this so here it is! I'm sure this is going to be spread over a decent amount of time, so please be patient with me as I update the post. Ideally, I will continually update this post with new information on potential fitment issues, new mods performed, etc. Also, ideally, I will finish the post out with some final dyno charts on my built motor, that will hopefully meet all of the goals I have set forth with my project. Ultimately the point of the entire post is to provide more information to you all on the Garrett GT series turbos, and to provide more application specific real world results to show what's possible with these turbos and how it applies to/affects our cars. There are plenty of people in the non-944 community using these turbos, so there is plenty of information and dyno charts out there to get a general idea on the performance capabilities these turbos will have with our cars. However, due to many important variables such as head design/efficiency, nothing beats real results on the same model car to tell you how things actually work. Here are the intial details:
Turbocharger installation components:
-Garrett Gt35r (Gt3582r)
-.82 Gt exhaust housing (converted to v-band by SFR)
-T04S compressor housing (4" inlet, 2.5" outlet)
-SFR 3" stainless v-band turbo elbow
-SFR 3" stainless v-band downpipe
-SFR 3" stainless high flow cat & 3" stainless catbypass pipe
-SFR stainless braided oil line with restrictor
-SFR stainless v-band 2 piece crossover pipe
I sourced all of these pieces from Tim @ Speed Force Racing The first thing I should mention is that because I am keeping my a/c system and since I purchased the turbo with the optional T04S housing, there is probably going to be a fitment issue with the stock intake manifold. I will update you all on potential fitment issues of components such as this. I am going to look into the possibility of making simple modifications or a flange spacer for the intake to use it with the T04S housing, though I can't promise that it will work. Generally, the T04E 3" housing, that Tim sells these with standard, will fit under the intake and provide much more room. Due to the high power level I am aiming for, I see the T04S housing as a necessary upgrade to reduce airflow restriction. The T04E 3" will work perfectly fine for most people's goals and still be good for considerable horsepower levels. I opted for the .82 exhaust side as it is absolutely necessary at these higher horsepower levels to reduce backpressure significantly. IMO, the .63 exhaust side would be a bit of a waste on a Gt35r, and a smaller turbo like the Gt3076r might be a better option. I can go into more detail on things like that if anyone would like to in the future.
Here's the official Garrett website link: Gt35r Tech Info
The technical aspects:
Compressor - 61.4mm Inducer, 82.0mm Exducer, 56 Trim, 0.70 A/R Compressor Map
Turbine - 68.0mm, 84 Trim Turbine Map
Airflow volume rating - 61lb/min, approximately 600fwhp
Generally, Garrett is fairly conservative with their ratings. Though they rate the Gt35r at 600 flywheel horsepower, countless numbers of people with a large variety of cars and motor designs have pushed these turbos well past the 600 REAR wheel horsepower mark. To date, I am not aware of anyone that is using one of these on a 2.5l 944, and certainly not at that high of a power level. There are several people in our community that are using various other Garrett GT series turbos on their 951's, and I would like to invite them to join in on this thread to help increase our knowledge about these turbos. Thanks, in advance, to any of you that do take the time to add to this thread. I'm not a retailer and have absolutely no plans of becoming one. I'm simply trying to do my part to add something worthwhile to the community.
Ultimately my goal is to hit 600rwhp with this turbo setup. I am beginning this setup on a 100% stock 951 2.5l motor as a placeholder while I build another motor. It will be a significant amount of time until I have the second motor built. though I do still plan on trying some things out with my stock motor. I plan on dyno testing quite a few components with the stock motor such as the effects of a high flow catalytic converter as well as a cat-bypass, stock intake manifold vs. a modded stock intake (larger throttle body, possible internal work, etc), improvements over a stock intercooler & stock IC pipes vs. larger units, etc. Of course results will vary with different sized turbo setups, so my results won't necessarily be the same as or even apply to quite a few people. I simply want to do this to throw some more data into the forum as to the kind of improvements some of these components can have with larger turbo setups.
As far as my engine build goes, I think I might create another thread for that topic though I am considering keeping that information within this thread. I haven't made up my mind yet, and that point is far enough away that I am going to start off focusing this thread on installation. Once I get to that point, I will delve more into my engine build and the components I personally feel will be necessary to reliably withstand the 600+rwhp level.
I just received some of my components today, and I should have the rest shortly. I should be starting in with the installation this weekend or the next, at which point I will post more info/pics. Until then, here's a few to get the ball rolling:
Turbocharger installation components:
-Garrett Gt35r (Gt3582r)
-.82 Gt exhaust housing (converted to v-band by SFR)
-T04S compressor housing (4" inlet, 2.5" outlet)
-SFR 3" stainless v-band turbo elbow
-SFR 3" stainless v-band downpipe
-SFR 3" stainless high flow cat & 3" stainless catbypass pipe
-SFR stainless braided oil line with restrictor
-SFR stainless v-band 2 piece crossover pipe
I sourced all of these pieces from Tim @ Speed Force Racing The first thing I should mention is that because I am keeping my a/c system and since I purchased the turbo with the optional T04S housing, there is probably going to be a fitment issue with the stock intake manifold. I will update you all on potential fitment issues of components such as this. I am going to look into the possibility of making simple modifications or a flange spacer for the intake to use it with the T04S housing, though I can't promise that it will work. Generally, the T04E 3" housing, that Tim sells these with standard, will fit under the intake and provide much more room. Due to the high power level I am aiming for, I see the T04S housing as a necessary upgrade to reduce airflow restriction. The T04E 3" will work perfectly fine for most people's goals and still be good for considerable horsepower levels. I opted for the .82 exhaust side as it is absolutely necessary at these higher horsepower levels to reduce backpressure significantly. IMO, the .63 exhaust side would be a bit of a waste on a Gt35r, and a smaller turbo like the Gt3076r might be a better option. I can go into more detail on things like that if anyone would like to in the future.
Here's the official Garrett website link: Gt35r Tech Info
The technical aspects:
Compressor - 61.4mm Inducer, 82.0mm Exducer, 56 Trim, 0.70 A/R Compressor Map
Turbine - 68.0mm, 84 Trim Turbine Map
Airflow volume rating - 61lb/min, approximately 600fwhp
Generally, Garrett is fairly conservative with their ratings. Though they rate the Gt35r at 600 flywheel horsepower, countless numbers of people with a large variety of cars and motor designs have pushed these turbos well past the 600 REAR wheel horsepower mark. To date, I am not aware of anyone that is using one of these on a 2.5l 944, and certainly not at that high of a power level. There are several people in our community that are using various other Garrett GT series turbos on their 951's, and I would like to invite them to join in on this thread to help increase our knowledge about these turbos. Thanks, in advance, to any of you that do take the time to add to this thread. I'm not a retailer and have absolutely no plans of becoming one. I'm simply trying to do my part to add something worthwhile to the community.
Ultimately my goal is to hit 600rwhp with this turbo setup. I am beginning this setup on a 100% stock 951 2.5l motor as a placeholder while I build another motor. It will be a significant amount of time until I have the second motor built. though I do still plan on trying some things out with my stock motor. I plan on dyno testing quite a few components with the stock motor such as the effects of a high flow catalytic converter as well as a cat-bypass, stock intake manifold vs. a modded stock intake (larger throttle body, possible internal work, etc), improvements over a stock intercooler & stock IC pipes vs. larger units, etc. Of course results will vary with different sized turbo setups, so my results won't necessarily be the same as or even apply to quite a few people. I simply want to do this to throw some more data into the forum as to the kind of improvements some of these components can have with larger turbo setups.
As far as my engine build goes, I think I might create another thread for that topic though I am considering keeping that information within this thread. I haven't made up my mind yet, and that point is far enough away that I am going to start off focusing this thread on installation. Once I get to that point, I will delve more into my engine build and the components I personally feel will be necessary to reliably withstand the 600+rwhp level.
I just received some of my components today, and I should have the rest shortly. I should be starting in with the installation this weekend or the next, at which point I will post more info/pics. Until then, here's a few to get the ball rolling:
well - good luck. I just hope all this is not too lofty a goal for the "thinker"
12-05-2006, 09:26 AM
#13
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Good luck with the build. If you keep us posted about the development of your project should be intersting to follow, plus give some crazy ideas.
Nice to have a **** load of money to do this kind of project, what kind of budget are you looking at when completed?
Nice to have a **** load of money to do this kind of project, what kind of budget are you looking at when completed?
12-05-2006, 09:42 AM
#14
Racer
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Dave951
I know that you have not driven your car in a while but what were your lasting impressions? Was the spool up acceptable? Better than a k26? Was the power on the "OH ****!!!" side or was it more like - "GREAT, but could be better with some head work". How was the installation? Any other custom parts needed beside the adapter? If you did it again would you use the same turbo or would you go a different rout (ie gt28 or gt35 - or a totally different turbo?)
I know that you have not driven your car in a while but what were your lasting impressions? Was the spool up acceptable? Better than a k26? Was the power on the "OH ****!!!" side or was it more like - "GREAT, but could be better with some head work". How was the installation? Any other custom parts needed beside the adapter? If you did it again would you use the same turbo or would you go a different rout (ie gt28 or gt35 - or a totally different turbo?)
12-05-2006, 02:48 PM
#15
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
ST, it's not too lofty a goal. The trick would be making things hold together of course. The hardware will be there to get the job done, and tuning is of course going to be vital. As for tuning, I'm planning on going with an AEM and there is a local guy that is an AEM "master" tuner and has tuned plenty of high horsepower stuff, so I should be covered as far as the tuning side of things goes.
Pk951, I don't technically have unlimited funds or anything. I just don't really spend my money on much else except my cars! Seriously though, I'm actually not too sure about an overall budget. I try not to think about that part of it. Once I progress a little further I might add an entire spreadsheet with the budget/cost of the entire project. I don't currently have exact pricing from some retailers/builders, however a built/sleeved short block isn't too incredibly expensive. I forsee the head being the most expensive part of my project as it will require the most custom work.
The hardware will be there to get the job done, and tuning is of course going to be vital. As for tuning, I'm planning on going with an AEM and there is a local guy that is an AEM "master" tuner and has tuned plenty of high horsepower stuff, so I should be covered as far as the tuning side of things goes.Pk951, I don't technically have unlimited funds or anything. I just don't really spend my money on much else except my cars!
Seriously though, I'm actually not too sure about an overall budget. I try not to think about that part of it. Once I progress a little further I might add an entire spreadsheet with the budget/cost of the entire project. I don't currently have exact pricing from some retailers/builders, however a built/sleeved short block isn't too incredibly expensive. I forsee the head being the most expensive part of my project as it will require the most custom work.