TDI Swap?
11-19-2006, 09:46 PM
#16
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Originally Posted by Matt Sheppard
If I could get one of the 5 or 6 cyl. euro models, sure! I'd run it on veggie oil too, but that's just me. Fuc#ed up thing about it is that I couldnt smog it here. Most of what I have thought of was adapting the VATN turbocharger(s) to a 951 gas application. I'd like to find out how to get an A4 Quattro TDI over here for a grocery getter.
11-19-2006, 10:04 PM
#18
Race Car
Originally Posted by SoloRacer
Audi runs with a VW motor?
VAG, Volkswagen-Audi-Gruppe
Porsche is very closely tied to VAG, as are dozens of other manufacturers.
VW/Audi make some of the finest engines in the world, especially when it comes to passenger car diesel engines. The Audi V10 TDI that did so well in lemans is heavily based on both the 2.5L V6 common rail TDI and the next generation of the 1.9L I-4 which will also be common rail.
There are people on TDI club who are pushing nearly 300whp from the 1.9L TDI, with over 500lb/ft of torque.
The result is a VERY flat torque curve, and passing power to spare.
From the 2.5L V6 it is rumored that 500hp is not out of the question. Of course, this could result in 800+lb/ft of torque as well. For the most part with diesels, the more tuning you do, the higher mileage you get. Many people are reporting mileage improvements when going to larger nozzles and higher boost levels. Of course, this is only when you keep your foot out of it, but even with your foot in it, you will still see ~40% better mileage than a comparable gas engine.
11-19-2006, 10:37 PM
#20
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This is why I find the idea interesting!
Plus the 924 was an Audi design...
Plus the 924 was an Audi design...
Originally Posted by Zero10
You're kidding, right?
VAG, Volkswagen-Audi-Gruppe
Porsche is very closely tied to VAG, as are dozens of other manufacturers.
VW/Audi make some of the finest engines in the world, especially when it comes to passenger car diesel engines. The Audi V10 TDI that did so well in lemans is heavily based on both the 2.5L V6 common rail TDI and the next generation of the 1.9L I-4 which will also be common rail.
There are people on TDI club who are pushing nearly 300whp from the 1.9L TDI, with over 500lb/ft of torque.
The result is a VERY flat torque curve, and passing power to spare.
From the 2.5L V6 it is rumored that 500hp is not out of the question. Of course, this could result in 800+lb/ft of torque as well. For the most part with diesels, the more tuning you do, the higher mileage you get. Many people are reporting mileage improvements when going to larger nozzles and higher boost levels. Of course, this is only when you keep your foot out of it, but even with your foot in it, you will still see ~40% better mileage than a comparable gas engine.
VAG, Volkswagen-Audi-Gruppe
Porsche is very closely tied to VAG, as are dozens of other manufacturers.
VW/Audi make some of the finest engines in the world, especially when it comes to passenger car diesel engines. The Audi V10 TDI that did so well in lemans is heavily based on both the 2.5L V6 common rail TDI and the next generation of the 1.9L I-4 which will also be common rail.
There are people on TDI club who are pushing nearly 300whp from the 1.9L TDI, with over 500lb/ft of torque.
The result is a VERY flat torque curve, and passing power to spare.
From the 2.5L V6 it is rumored that 500hp is not out of the question. Of course, this could result in 800+lb/ft of torque as well. For the most part with diesels, the more tuning you do, the higher mileage you get. Many people are reporting mileage improvements when going to larger nozzles and higher boost levels. Of course, this is only when you keep your foot out of it, but even with your foot in it, you will still see ~40% better mileage than a comparable gas engine.
11-19-2006, 11:26 PM
#21
Race Car
Yup, so swapping the 1.6L IDI into the audi drivetrain was very simple. Then again, that engine made a whopping 56hp, so you might want something with a little more guts.
A 944 with 200hp that gets 45-55mpg would be pretty fine by my standards
A 944 with 200hp that gets 45-55mpg would be pretty fine by my standards
11-20-2006, 01:17 AM
#22
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TB: the 924 was still very much a Porsche design, just that is was initially to be an Audi product.
I really like the smooth behavior of I-5's (ala UrQuattro GT) and I could see that worth while as a motor swap. You would have to plumb new fuel lines that accomodate the thicker fuel, wouldnt you? Dont he US Eurovan come with the I-5 or can only get the I-4? I imagine scavinging a wrecked example and get as much of the doner fuel system as possible. Perhaps tranny wise something along the line of what was talked about on the 5-6 speed thread with a G50 6-speed and a taller FD. It would prob. top out at 120 or 130 (guess) and be somewhat expensive. But how would one smog it / deal with DMV?
I am just amazed at the leap direct injection has meant for turbo diesels. I wish I would have thought of it.
I really like the smooth behavior of I-5's (ala UrQuattro GT) and I could see that worth while as a motor swap. You would have to plumb new fuel lines that accomodate the thicker fuel, wouldnt you? Dont he US Eurovan come with the I-5 or can only get the I-4? I imagine scavinging a wrecked example and get as much of the doner fuel system as possible. Perhaps tranny wise something along the line of what was talked about on the 5-6 speed thread with a G50 6-speed and a taller FD. It would prob. top out at 120 or 130 (guess) and be somewhat expensive. But how would one smog it / deal with DMV?
I am just amazed at the leap direct injection has meant for turbo diesels. I wish I would have thought of it.
11-20-2006, 03:24 AM
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11-20-2006, 03:59 AM
#24
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What would be the purpose of the swap? Power, cheap and easy, etc? If power is what you want, do an Ls1 swap and be done with it. If you want more power, but still want to keep it German then swap a BMW 3.5l i6 in and throw a turbo on that. Then you'd have a hell of alot more torque, a better powerband, and a better overall motor. Or, if you are really ambitious do a 3.8l E34 M5 motor and turbo that. Talk about powerbands. Why screw around with small displacement or odd swaps that won't really significantly change the car? If anything, just do a 951 motor swap and be done with it.
One odd swap that I think would be pretty cool is an Audi 2.2l i5 turbo, such as the old Ur S4 motor. Those motors have made some impressive numbers, they can be reliable as hell, and they sound badass plus they've been improved on through motorsports for decades so it would still be in keeping with the Porsche spirit.
I know I'm going to get flamed for this but, if you really want to do a worthwhile motorswap then throw a Nissan Sr20det in there. Thanks to Asia, so many aftermarket parts have been reproduced and knocked off that Ebay has become flooded with them and everything is a dime a dozen. It's lighter weight, could be mounted further down and back then the 944 motors so it would result in better COG/balance/weight distribution/etc, the motor is a better and more efficient design in every way, they have huge potential in stock form, and for relatively cheap you can build a motor and turbo setup to make tons of hp while being entirely sourced from ebay alone. There's definitely something to be said for making things easier. Why not go with a widely proven motor that has huge aftermarket support?
One odd swap that I think would be pretty cool is an Audi 2.2l i5 turbo, such as the old Ur S4 motor. Those motors have made some impressive numbers, they can be reliable as hell, and they sound badass plus they've been improved on through motorsports for decades so it would still be in keeping with the Porsche spirit.
I know I'm going to get flamed for this but, if you really want to do a worthwhile motorswap then throw a Nissan Sr20det in there. Thanks to Asia, so many aftermarket parts have been reproduced and knocked off that Ebay has become flooded with them and everything is a dime a dozen. It's lighter weight, could be mounted further down and back then the 944 motors so it would result in better COG/balance/weight distribution/etc, the motor is a better and more efficient design in every way, they have huge potential in stock form, and for relatively cheap you can build a motor and turbo setup to make tons of hp while being entirely sourced from ebay alone.
There's definitely something to be said for making things easier. Why not go with a widely proven motor that has huge aftermarket support?
11-20-2006, 04:04 AM
#25
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I would rather use an RB25Det - about the same price, but 2.5L and 6 cylinders, and not that much longer then the nissan 4...
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11-20-2006, 04:05 AM
#26
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Originally Posted by Porschefile
What would be the purpose of the swap?
Just to do it - its like why people make 4x4 corvettes or drag race bigrigs. Just because they want to.
My personal crazy project will be to make my 93 camry into a v8/fi i4 rwd car (once the engine finally dies in it - 230k and counting). That should be a nice sleeper.
11-20-2006, 06:15 AM
#27
Originally Posted by Zero10
You're kidding, right?
VAG, Volkswagen-Audi-Gruppe
Porsche is very closely tied to VAG, as are dozens of other manufacturers.
VW/Audi make some of the finest engines in the world, especially when it comes to passenger car diesel engines. The Audi V10 TDI that did so well in lemans is heavily based on both the 2.5L V6 common rail TDI and the next generation of the 1.9L I-4 which will also be common rail.
There are people on TDI club who are pushing nearly 300whp from the 1.9L TDI, with over 500lb/ft of torque.
The result is a VERY flat torque curve, and passing power to spare.
From the 2.5L V6 it is rumored that 500hp is not out of the question. Of course, this could result in 800+lb/ft of torque as well. For the most part with diesels, the more tuning you do, the higher mileage you get. Many people are reporting mileage improvements when going to larger nozzles and higher boost levels. Of course, this is only when you keep your foot out of it, but even with your foot in it, you will still see ~40% better mileage than a comparable gas engine.
VAG, Volkswagen-Audi-Gruppe
Porsche is very closely tied to VAG, as are dozens of other manufacturers.
VW/Audi make some of the finest engines in the world, especially when it comes to passenger car diesel engines. The Audi V10 TDI that did so well in lemans is heavily based on both the 2.5L V6 common rail TDI and the next generation of the 1.9L I-4 which will also be common rail.
There are people on TDI club who are pushing nearly 300whp from the 1.9L TDI, with over 500lb/ft of torque.
The result is a VERY flat torque curve, and passing power to spare.
From the 2.5L V6 it is rumored that 500hp is not out of the question. Of course, this could result in 800+lb/ft of torque as well. For the most part with diesels, the more tuning you do, the higher mileage you get. Many people are reporting mileage improvements when going to larger nozzles and higher boost levels. Of course, this is only when you keep your foot out of it, but even with your foot in it, you will still see ~40% better mileage than a comparable gas engine.
And then why bother putting a Diesel in a 944 , Gasoline is almost for free and a V8 would fit just fine.
( I have a diesel as a daily driver , and getting twice the power out of it cost a lot of $$$ )
If you want a decent diesel car , check out Bmw 535Tds
11-20-2006, 06:51 AM
#28
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by blodstrupmoen
You know that last year Porsche bought Vw ?
actually, nissans own VH41DE V8 weights less than the RB25DET and is heavily overengineered as it stems from race development.
It has dohc, variable valve timing, efi, etc. the only issue would be dimensions. they start at $800- $1000 kiwi for a used one, or a about $540-660 usd.
I have a friend building a nissan laurel racecar with one. he says ( prices are NZ):
VH41DE w/45 internals ftw. Factory capacity for almost 8000RPM, better flowing heads, 1000HP capable bottom end with one piece crossbolted main bearing beam, strong reliable valvetrain with hydraulic roller rockers, remappable factory ECU, indestructible duplex timing chains, etc.
It's a midrange displacement engine which has the benefits of all the little bits of jap technology combined into one bulletproof package, capable of huge flow, big revs, long reliability, light weight, and was designed by Nissan between 1983-1987.
$1k - VH41DE engine... you can pay up to 2k for them, but mine was 800 bucks for a halfcut and I've seen the motors for as low as 590 with damaged plugs etc.
$2.5k-$3.5k - Manual conversion parts including my custom developed VH41/VH45 alloy flywheel, 1050kg pressure plate, 6 puck brass button clutch with sprung center, typical Toyota W57 or equivalent gearbox. If you go RB25DET gearbox, you're looking at around $3.5k+
$250ish - Walbro intank fuel pump
$50ish - Fuel line
$200ish - Engine mounts, I've already developed them and they can be pretty much made to order.
$100ish - VH41DE exhaust header flanges, laser cut from 10mm mild steel plate, port matched & ready to go on. Again, I've already done the R&D on these and they can be made to order.
We're up to $5100max with the bare essentials covered. All the prices I've listed so far have been averages, based on typical prices for things I've seen. You could probably even get this down to $3.5k or so if you got a deal on all the parts.
$??? - Custom modified driveshaft.
$??? - Mitsi colt brake booster, or equivalent small diameter brake booster that clears the head to fit same mounting pattern in Nissan engine bay.
$??? - Different slave cylinder to clear rocker cover. Note, still require modification to rear of driver's side rocker cover.
$??? - Fabrication, custom stuff etc involved with typical V8 conversion.
I've spent over $20k on my car, but that's doing everything... and as much of it myself as I can. Full track spec coilover conversion, solid rear subframe bushes, nolathanes all round, R32 steering rack conversion, big deepdish 18s with goodyear eagle F1 tyres, M spec brake upgrade with bendix ultimates, etc. The list goes on and on. It all depends how far you want to take it. The parts I've listed above are really a minimum to have the V8 in your car and running, but to pass a cert it still requires a brake upgrade.
Benefits of running a Nissan V8 - ridiculously flash engine, so overengineered it isn't funny, I haven't seen another motor that compares... it makes me drool! It's blatantly a race motor that's been throttled down with a restrictive intake, exhaust system, cam profiles, and retarded ECU tuning to make it smooth and quiet for a luxury car. Every aspect of the engine has been designed strong and efficient, and it's capable of 1000HP on the stock bottom end (has been done).
Very reliable, will last donkey's years if properly maintained.
Massive power potential. For just $440+gst you can get a cam grind & shims done for an immediate increase to over 400HP.
The engine is 220kg minus exhaust manifolds, making it both lighter and shorter than the RB.
So cheap for what it is ! Sure it costs a bit to transplant this engine and start using it, but once you've overcome that initial cost, you've got something with so much potential.
It's a midrange displacement engine which has the benefits of all the little bits of jap technology combined into one bulletproof package, capable of huge flow, big revs, long reliability, light weight, and was designed by Nissan between 1983-1987.
$1k - VH41DE engine... you can pay up to 2k for them, but mine was 800 bucks for a halfcut and I've seen the motors for as low as 590 with damaged plugs etc.
$2.5k-$3.5k - Manual conversion parts including my custom developed VH41/VH45 alloy flywheel, 1050kg pressure plate, 6 puck brass button clutch with sprung center, typical Toyota W57 or equivalent gearbox. If you go RB25DET gearbox, you're looking at around $3.5k+
$250ish - Walbro intank fuel pump
$50ish - Fuel line
$200ish - Engine mounts, I've already developed them and they can be pretty much made to order.
$100ish - VH41DE exhaust header flanges, laser cut from 10mm mild steel plate, port matched & ready to go on. Again, I've already done the R&D on these and they can be made to order.
We're up to $5100max with the bare essentials covered. All the prices I've listed so far have been averages, based on typical prices for things I've seen. You could probably even get this down to $3.5k or so if you got a deal on all the parts.
$??? - Custom modified driveshaft.
$??? - Mitsi colt brake booster, or equivalent small diameter brake booster that clears the head to fit same mounting pattern in Nissan engine bay.
$??? - Different slave cylinder to clear rocker cover. Note, still require modification to rear of driver's side rocker cover.
$??? - Fabrication, custom stuff etc involved with typical V8 conversion.
I've spent over $20k on my car, but that's doing everything... and as much of it myself as I can. Full track spec coilover conversion, solid rear subframe bushes, nolathanes all round, R32 steering rack conversion, big deepdish 18s with goodyear eagle F1 tyres, M spec brake upgrade with bendix ultimates, etc. The list goes on and on. It all depends how far you want to take it. The parts I've listed above are really a minimum to have the V8 in your car and running, but to pass a cert it still requires a brake upgrade.
Benefits of running a Nissan V8 - ridiculously flash engine, so overengineered it isn't funny, I haven't seen another motor that compares... it makes me drool! It's blatantly a race motor that's been throttled down with a restrictive intake, exhaust system, cam profiles, and retarded ECU tuning to make it smooth and quiet for a luxury car. Every aspect of the engine has been designed strong and efficient, and it's capable of 1000HP on the stock bottom end (has been done).
Very reliable, will last donkey's years if properly maintained.
Massive power potential. For just $440+gst you can get a cam grind & shims done for an immediate increase to over 400HP.
The engine is 220kg minus exhaust manifolds, making it both lighter and shorter than the RB.
So cheap for what it is ! Sure it costs a bit to transplant this engine and start using it, but once you've overcome that initial cost, you've got something with so much potential.
I haven't yet figured out whether they're (injectors) 270 or 370cc.
The american version of the VH41DE is a heap of ****, it's quite different to the jap spec ones, and has heaps of things cut out of it including the nice spider manifold. That version has 270cc injectors.
The VH45DE has 370cc injectors, but the jap spec VH41DE hasn't had anything cut down on it and has a number of improvements over the VH45DE. This is why I don't know whether they've got 270s or 370s.
The injectors are RB25/SR20 side fed style injectors.
The american version of the VH41DE is a heap of ****, it's quite different to the jap spec ones, and has heaps of things cut out of it including the nice spider manifold. That version has 270cc injectors.
The VH45DE has 370cc injectors, but the jap spec VH41DE hasn't had anything cut down on it and has a number of improvements over the VH45DE. This is why I don't know whether they've got 270s or 370s.
The injectors are RB25/SR20 side fed style injectors.
11-20-2006, 07:27 AM
#29
Race Car
As mentioned above, if you have to ask why then you will never agree with the OP for wanting to do it.
I have had the same dream and tried to explain it to people. Like I said, on this forum the idea went over about as well as a lead balloon.
Don't hate because he wants to do it. Swapping an LS-1 in is all about power, swapping a TDI in is for other reasons.
There are 1000 engines that people could swap into 944's. I don't think the OP wanted this thread to turn into a discussion of what japanese gas engines he could swap into a 944, but rather a discussion about swapping a TDI into a 944. Let's try to keep on topic please.
I have had the same dream and tried to explain it to people. Like I said, on this forum the idea went over about as well as a lead balloon.
Don't hate because he wants to do it. Swapping an LS-1 in is all about power, swapping a TDI in is for other reasons.
There are 1000 engines that people could swap into 944's. I don't think the OP wanted this thread to turn into a discussion of what japanese gas engines he could swap into a 944, but rather a discussion about swapping a TDI into a 944. Let's try to keep on topic please.
11-21-2006, 01:12 PM
#30
Three Wheelin'
Jesus, it was a simple question. Doing something for the hell of it is a perfectly viable reason, I simply wanted to know if it was that or if he was trying to accomplish a specific purpose. Oh, and I completely understand doing stuff for the hell of it as I've been down that route before. I'm probably going to buy an additional 951 when I finish my current one and do some sort of Nissan motor swap into it purely for the hell of it and ease of modification. I'm considering either building a Sr20Vet or swapping in an Rb26 as I have 2 Rb26's (well 1 1/2 anyways, long story) laying around in my garage. Ease of modding and maintenance is a huge plus in my book.
Nissan's VH series motors are very nice and do have huge potential. It's too bad you rarely ever see anyone seriously build them.
Doing something for the hell of it is a perfectly viable reason, I simply wanted to know if it was that or if he was trying to accomplish a specific purpose. Oh, and I completely understand doing stuff for the hell of it as I've been down that route before. I'm probably going to buy an additional 951 when I finish my current one and do some sort of Nissan motor swap into it purely for the hell of it and ease of modification. I'm considering either building a Sr20Vet or swapping in an Rb26 as I have 2 Rb26's (well 1 1/2 anyways, long story) laying around in my garage. Ease of modding and maintenance is a huge plus in my book.Nissan's VH series motors are very nice and do have huge potential. It's too bad you rarely ever see anyone seriously build them.