I think it's time to kill my car..... Ball joint troubles (long-ish)
09-21-2006, 09:23 AM
#33
Instructor
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The Charlie arm pins and the Fabcar pins don't get smaller at the ball. The Fabcar pin is actually 17mm at the spindle and then gets bigger. The Fabcar pin is on this page:
http://www.ogracing.com/eshop/home.asp?categ=312
The only 19mm "pins" that I know of like the stock ones are the Rennbay ones - are there any others?
--Brian Morris
89 951
http://www.ogracing.com/eshop/home.asp?categ=312
The only 19mm "pins" that I know of like the stock ones are the Rennbay ones - are there any others?
--Brian Morris
89 951
09-21-2006, 09:39 AM
#34
Race Car
Originally Posted by pk951
So the consensus seems to say, forget about the rebuild kits they won't last. Buy oem or aftermarket arms.
09-21-2006, 02:45 PM
#35
Race Car
Thread Starter
I don't think that kits should be offered with plastic upper bushings. It seems like mine are completely crushed, and after seeing them fail I can't imagine how they hold up on other people's cars.
If the 19mm pin has the same neck on it as the 17mm pin then I as well am lost on the purpose of upgrading it to 19mm.
Charlie arms are out of the question, and I am not certain about the 968 M030 arms.....
Won't I require M030 spindles? What is the difference with M030 arms?
$800, is that for both sides, or each?
I think right now the comparison is between the Rennbay 17mm track kit and replacement stock arms.
If the 19mm pin has the same neck on it as the 17mm pin then I as well am lost on the purpose of upgrading it to 19mm.
Charlie arms are out of the question, and I am not certain about the 968 M030 arms.....
Won't I require M030 spindles? What is the difference with M030 arms?
$800, is that for both sides, or each?
I think right now the comparison is between the Rennbay 17mm track kit and replacement stock arms.
09-21-2006, 03:36 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
All late offset (87+) control arm part numbers now superceed to the 968 M030 arms - that is the only control arm part number still available from Porsche for a late offset 944. It will bolt right up to your car. I currently have them on my 87 Turbo with stock spindles.
M030 arms have a slightly more rigid/stiffer rubber suspension bushings than non-M030 arms. 968 arms are a different casting than 944 arms - dimensionally they are the same, but they have the mounting tabs for the lower 968 brake cooling scoop cast in them, and some of the casting contours are slightly changed from a 944 arm.
I have not bought a set from a dealer in 3-4 years, so pricing may have gone up since then. But when I ordered from one of the mail order discount dealers, like Hennessy, Sunset, etc - they were in the range of $350-400 for each arm.
I will not say that factory new arms are bullet proof, and I will always have some concern in the back of my mind about balljoint failures when driving hard on the track. But going to Charlie/Fabcar arms for a street car, or occasional Auto-x/DE car is overkill. If you keep an eye on the factory joints, and replace them when there is play, much of the risk of catastrophic failure is reduced (but never eliminated...), even for track/race use.
I have been DE'ing 944s since '92 and Club Racing since '99. In the range of 100 DE and Race events on 4 different cars. Luckily I have not had a catostrophic ball joint failure up to this point.
On one car, I did damage a balljoint at Heartland Park about 9 years ago, where I spunout and slid sideways into some curbing, bent a wheel and wrecked the balljoint - the impact destroyed the bushing so the ball was very loose, but did not snap the pin. I limped the car home and replaced the arm with a factory new arm.
Out of preventive maintenance, I have replaced the control arms on each of the other 3 cars that I have tracked/raced. Two sets were factory new replacements, and one set was NOS motorsport a-arms that originally came out of Kelly Moss. So, although I have spent around $2600-2800 on control arms over the years, I would have spent $6k if I would have installed Charlie Arms on them.
Not discouraging anyone from going with the available aftermarket arms, they are very trick. But there is a reasonable amount of safety when using good condition factory arms. However, I am not sure that this can be said about all or any of the rebuilt arms.
M030 arms have a slightly more rigid/stiffer rubber suspension bushings than non-M030 arms. 968 arms are a different casting than 944 arms - dimensionally they are the same, but they have the mounting tabs for the lower 968 brake cooling scoop cast in them, and some of the casting contours are slightly changed from a 944 arm.
I have not bought a set from a dealer in 3-4 years, so pricing may have gone up since then. But when I ordered from one of the mail order discount dealers, like Hennessy, Sunset, etc - they were in the range of $350-400 for each arm.
I will not say that factory new arms are bullet proof, and I will always have some concern in the back of my mind about balljoint failures when driving hard on the track. But going to Charlie/Fabcar arms for a street car, or occasional Auto-x/DE car is overkill. If you keep an eye on the factory joints, and replace them when there is play, much of the risk of catastrophic failure is reduced (but never eliminated...), even for track/race use.
I have been DE'ing 944s since '92 and Club Racing since '99. In the range of 100 DE and Race events on 4 different cars. Luckily I have not had a catostrophic ball joint failure up to this point.
On one car, I did damage a balljoint at Heartland Park about 9 years ago, where I spunout and slid sideways into some curbing, bent a wheel and wrecked the balljoint - the impact destroyed the bushing so the ball was very loose, but did not snap the pin. I limped the car home and replaced the arm with a factory new arm.
Out of preventive maintenance, I have replaced the control arms on each of the other 3 cars that I have tracked/raced. Two sets were factory new replacements, and one set was NOS motorsport a-arms that originally came out of Kelly Moss. So, although I have spent around $2600-2800 on control arms over the years, I would have spent $6k if I would have installed Charlie Arms on them.
Not discouraging anyone from going with the available aftermarket arms, they are very trick. But there is a reasonable amount of safety when using good condition factory arms. However, I am not sure that this can be said about all or any of the rebuilt arms.
09-22-2006, 06:36 AM
#37
Rennlist Member
Good post Oddjob. I guess that my decision to go to RacersEdge A-arms was that I am lowering the car to put in new suspension and that can exacerbate the chances of pin or ball joint failure. Also your calculation$ of factory A-arms v's aftermarket is based on replacing them at various times. My logic is that the R-Edge arms are so much stronger that once in they should last for as long as I will. So peace of mind and total costs may equal out with any luck. Also putting in various monoball/race type bearings which will make the car a bit rough on the road but should increase the fun on the track!
09-22-2006, 09:41 AM
#38
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If you're planning on going to monoballs as well the Charlie arms (and racer's edge) become even "cheaper". The monoball kits are $250 so you're paying $1350 for the arms. Factory arms are $520 at vertex so a pair is $1040, not a huge difference from Charlie arms. Fabcars are $1900 and they don't come with any bushings, making them significantly more expensive.
--Brian Morris
89 951
--Brian Morris
89 951
09-22-2006, 11:59 AM
#39
Rennlist Member
Yes, lowering the car can increase risk/problems with the balljoints - tends to bind the ball/pin within the socket, which can either bend the pin or shear it. So when using stock arms, do not drop the ride height too much. How much is "too" much.... good question. My cars have all been lower than stock, but not radically low.
Vertex, or any of the aftermarket suppliers, is not a cheap source for Porsche Originial Equipment parts - they have to buy them from Porsche, then put their mark-up on top of that. They are only cheap for generic parts that they can source from OE manufactures (like getting bearings from SKF, or rotors from Zimmerman, instead buying through Porsche). Vertex cannot get 944 control arms from anyone other than Porsche direct, therefore if you are going to buy control arms - order them from Hennessey Porsche (I just had a shipping problem with Sunset, so I wont recommend them until this problem gets resolved) - they, and others, give you an approx 25% discount off of dealer list price. I paid $350-400 per arm between '97 and '02; prices may have gone up some since then, but you can get them cheaper than what Vertex and others advertise them for.
When comparing pricing of the aftermarket arms, also consider the cost of machining the spindles (if going to one of the 19mm pin options). And does having a machined spindle reduce the value of it? Dont know - whats the market for a set of bored out M030 spindles compared to stock M030 units? If you decide to sell the car, and want to keep the control arms for a future track car project, I guess you just need to keep/swap the spindles too - which may or may not be practical.
Also, if you are careful, you can can swap a factory arm w/o messing up the alignment - leave the rear castor eccentric in the castor block. If pulling the knuckles to have them machined, you need to have the alignment done for sure - so there is another $150-200. If its for a track car, and you have the alignment done once or twice a year (or more) then this extra expense really doesnt matter.
Up to this point, I have not had to replace any of the newer 968 arms. Yes I agree, that if/when I have to replace the current 968 arms on my car(s) for a 2nd time, the total expense will now equal or exceed the cost of some of the aftermarket arms. But at the mileage I am putting on these cars, the 968 arms have and will last me for years (even on the track cars).
Again, I am not recommending against using Racer's Edge, Fabcar, or Charlie arms for a track car. They are all a good (but expensive) solution. I do think these arms are unnecessary for a street only car. I would anticipate getting 100k+ miles out of a new set of factory arms, on a street car. If you do track the car, then the margin/factor of safety and life of the factory arms is reduced.
So I guess my recommendation is:
Street car - use factory new arms.
Track car - use the aftermarket arms if its in the current budget, if not, use factory new arms and inspect them religiously.
Vertex, or any of the aftermarket suppliers, is not a cheap source for Porsche Originial Equipment parts - they have to buy them from Porsche, then put their mark-up on top of that. They are only cheap for generic parts that they can source from OE manufactures (like getting bearings from SKF, or rotors from Zimmerman, instead buying through Porsche). Vertex cannot get 944 control arms from anyone other than Porsche direct, therefore if you are going to buy control arms - order them from Hennessey Porsche (I just had a shipping problem with Sunset, so I wont recommend them until this problem gets resolved) - they, and others, give you an approx 25% discount off of dealer list price. I paid $350-400 per arm between '97 and '02; prices may have gone up some since then, but you can get them cheaper than what Vertex and others advertise them for.
When comparing pricing of the aftermarket arms, also consider the cost of machining the spindles (if going to one of the 19mm pin options). And does having a machined spindle reduce the value of it? Dont know - whats the market for a set of bored out M030 spindles compared to stock M030 units? If you decide to sell the car, and want to keep the control arms for a future track car project, I guess you just need to keep/swap the spindles too - which may or may not be practical.
Also, if you are careful, you can can swap a factory arm w/o messing up the alignment - leave the rear castor eccentric in the castor block. If pulling the knuckles to have them machined, you need to have the alignment done for sure - so there is another $150-200. If its for a track car, and you have the alignment done once or twice a year (or more) then this extra expense really doesnt matter.
Up to this point, I have not had to replace any of the newer 968 arms. Yes I agree, that if/when I have to replace the current 968 arms on my car(s) for a 2nd time, the total expense will now equal or exceed the cost of some of the aftermarket arms. But at the mileage I am putting on these cars, the 968 arms have and will last me for years (even on the track cars).
Again, I am not recommending against using Racer's Edge, Fabcar, or Charlie arms for a track car. They are all a good (but expensive) solution. I do think these arms are unnecessary for a street only car. I would anticipate getting 100k+ miles out of a new set of factory arms, on a street car. If you do track the car, then the margin/factor of safety and life of the factory arms is reduced.
So I guess my recommendation is:
Street car - use factory new arms.
Track car - use the aftermarket arms if its in the current budget, if not, use factory new arms and inspect them religiously.
09-22-2006, 03:27 PM
#42
Drifting
Originally Posted by Brian Morris
Out of curiosity I called Sunset and got a price of $391 which is something like 32% off list of $570. So that is pretty cheap (relatively speaking).
--Brian Morris
89 951
--Brian Morris
89 951
Nice work Brian.
