moliver

I cannot believe how narrow minded some of the rennlist community is.....

Support and the aftermarket for the 924/944/968 is such a small market with so few players...this really drives up the cost of things. For example aftermarket control arms / camber plates, boost tubes etc.

No you are driving away new potential supplier/vendor.

I really think the internet makes people forget about reality.

Oh Tim, nothing directed at you or anyone specifically.....how are my boost tubes coming along, did the tial flange come in?

Thanks...these are just my opinions of course.

Duke

Totally agree. Wonder what would happen if this mentality would spread in the ricer community Total war zone.

SFR's headers do look a bit nicer in design but let's face it. Given the location of the 951 there is NOT a thousand ways of doing an equal length 4-1 header.

And there HAS to be at least one other company that can offer another 4-1 eq length header for these cars without everyone going crazy.

This is exactly what happend when Mark Robinsson offered to make an affordable 4-1 header. Sad.

Every performance exhaust, intake manifold, intercooler pipes etc are more or less copys of each other. The only thing is that you have to adapt the design to fit a specific car. Other than that, it's all the same basics.

Most equal length 4-1 headers for 4 cyl cars look more or less the same. Then add in to the fact how you must adapt the design to make it work in...say...a 951 application.

Then your header would look like something that we have seen in this thread. And that by itself has nothing to do with stealing someone else's design.

TurboTim

I see some of you are taking Craigs side so lets put it in perspective. You work at a 9 to 5 job. Some new guy gets hired.He goes into your office or on your computer, copies your ideas or work and then goes to the boss and gets the credit for your work, gets your promotoion and your raise! That is totally fine right? You wouldnt care at all, would you? Good ol' American competition. Afterall there is no patent on your work or ideas, right? Give me a break. I cant think of one person that wouldnt be pissed or feel like they were just robbed.

Now Craig did not go to this extent but he is essentially doing something similiar to this without the malicious intent. I dont have a problem with Craig. I think he did a pretty good job. My problem is that he did come on here trying to sell something. "Contact me directly if you want a set of these headers" is definitely trying to sell something whether he admits it or not. I would not have even said a word if it wasn't written in his post. Since it was though, I said something.The majority of people here agree.

To summarize........we(vendors) are not getting rich building parts for obsolete cars.We do it because we have a passion, love or desire to build parts that make these cars better.There is also an unspoken pact between vendors.For the most part,things are not blatantly copied and sold from one vendor to the next. Each vendor has their own unique approach to attract potential customers and none of them have ever compromised their integrity to make a profit.For example, Lindsey, SFR, Powerhaus and Vitesse sells turbos and MAF kits and each companies sources them from a different supplier and uses different components.Anyone can go buy SMT6's(I use this as an example from the recent popularity) and start cranking out MAF system exactly like Vitesse sells but that is wrong and so none of the vendors have lowered themselves to that level to make a buck. Maybe it is because there are not many vendors for these cars that we are able to keep things respectable without turning our market into that of the Hondas.

jacklet

crazy totally crazy

ibkevin

I throw the BS flag here! As with many products, if there is enough interest and if the $ sign is right, Craig will start producing or make arrangemnets to produce these.

Anyone seen any history of Craigs exhaust "development" in any other boards?

Hoosier Daddy?

What about this one from a 16 valve head? I think David Chen built it. It's in the 3.? 16 valve turbo thread here.



edit - don't know why the pic isn't showing, sorry, you'll have to click to view.

Duke

Tim, I respect what you are saying, and understand your position.
But that does not justify you trying to have exclusive rights on making equal length headers for the 951.

It was the same when Guru launched the MAP-kits, after a while you started to sell your own MAP-kits. It's competition and while I understand why it upsets you (of course you don't want to loose business to someone else) I don't understand why it upsets everyone else so much.

I understand if some people are upset when something is offered for sale from a non sponsor, but don't confuse that with "stealing" someone elses products.

I love competition, as long as I doesn't affect me in a bad way... but it's nothing to complain about. I either a) have to sell my products as a superior design/quality USP or b) lower my price.

Hoosier Daddy?

[QUOTE=Duke]
I understand if some people are upset when something is offered for sale from a non sponsor, but don't confuse that with "stealing" someone elses products.

QUOTE]

I agree Duke-

Is SFR still a sponsor of Rennlist? They're not listed anymore.

And as far as "stealing products" just because they look the same - Well the packaging in the car determines that. For instance, if I want to make a new down pipe. It has to run from the turbo to where my cat back section mounts, without making contact with the floor pan or anything else. So it's "look" is predetermined. Otherwise Bursch would be mad at GHL who would be mad at B&B who would be mad at SFR who would be mad at Lindsey who would be mad at whoever else makes one for this car....Because they all "look" the same.

TurboTim

As a matter of fact Duke, I in no way shape or form have exclusive rights to equal length headers for the 951. Contact Broadfoot Racing, they have one.I could also build another set of equal length headers that do not look similiar to our current headers or the Broadfoot headers.There are many ways to build an equal length header and I keep seeing people say there is only one way to build one on a 951.

As far as all equal length four cylinders turbo headers looking the same.Please show me one that even resembles the header we build for the 951.The Hondas,Mitsus,etc..... predominately use a ram-horn style manifold and there are some other that have some off the wall desgns and none of them look remotely close to the headers we build.The closest thing I have seen is on N/A Ferraris with V-8s.

As far as Mark Robinson goes........he jumped the gun big time.He offered to make affordable headers but I am sure he quickly found out that adffordable would be $1500+ easily and thats not allowing much of a profit and it certainly does not warrant the term affordable..So that whole deal just sort of fell off the boards.

Matt,

We are not sponsering the boards at this time.There are some specfic reasons for this. Mainly due to one of the other vendors getting the majority of the business on Rennlist when it comes to some specfic things we have been selling for years.They are getting our market share so the site sponsership had to go because it wasnt making alot of sense anymore. The other alternative was to stay on as a sponser and have flame wars with the vendor to fight for our share of the market which doesnt do a whole lot of good either. So I chose the respectable path out. I am not sure where you were going with this........

Duke

I was talking about well designed headers
IMHO Broadfoots primary are too short.
I would want as long primary as possible then a professional merge collector with v-band clamp. Given the space I have a hard time thinking of another good way to curve them other than the ones in this thread (including the 16v header).
The crossover has to be in the same place and the collector has to be before then turn (unfortunatly. I would like to have it halfway through the crossover)
That would lead me to the discussed design.

You are probably right. But since you already foresaw that the bashing and "copying" talk could simply be avoided at no risk.

BTW, here's a completely different 4-1 design on a 951. But the turbo position is also "slightly" different

JET951

just curious, question for tim at sfr, who made those headers first? david chen with his 16 valve or you tim? or did he buy them off you and modify the flanges to suit 3 bolt? i quite like the look of those SFR headers.

MPD47

Jet, they are completely seperate entities to my knowledge. Tim did his awhile back (didnt TonyG have something to do with it? Or am I completely out of my mind?), David's are not the same design (although similar) they are probably based off of Tim's, which I absolutely love, but cannot afford right now.

TurboTim

I beleive we built ours for the 944 turbo and the 968 before he did it for that 968.If you look close at those headers, the number four bend is cheated which is bad for flow and the collector is not really a collector,it is more like an expanded pipe that was shaped around the runners.



Tim

95Juan

ghostbusters?

TurboTim

Ummmm.yeah ghostbusters.