Are all MAFs created equal?
05-26-2006, 07:19 PM
#16
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Originally Posted by fast951
The sensor up top. However, the only way to really clock it is to rotate it till you hit the sweet spot.
05-26-2006, 07:32 PM
#17
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Tom M'Guinn
The problem you had was the fact that when you shut the throttle, the blow-off valve could open and dump a bunch of air in the space between the compressor and the MAF.
Your specific problem was that the MAF was actually measuring air going "out" instead of "in". That's why your voltages jumped. (MAF's can measure in any direction). Typically, this would only occur on light load/low boost situations (like cruising in 5th up a slight grade). At higher boost situations/higher load situations, the compressor was spinning fast enough to keep sucking in air (keep the air going in the proper direction irrespective of the quantity of air dumped in back of the MAF).
The problem was with the HR Stage 4 MAF (Ford), which I'm guessing you have (had).
I was aware of this problem many years ago back when the HR Stage 4 MAF was first offered. HR did nothing about it because they couldn't (at the time).
For some reason, different MAF housings and sampling tube designs are more succeptable to this problem more than others. The HR Stage 3 and lower did not have this problem. The Bullet that Lindsey (and probably others) sell, does not have this problem either.
Moving the MAF farther reduced the effect, but won't cure the problem. The only solution on the 951 recirculated setup is a different MAF sensor.
TonyG
The problem you had was the fact that when you shut the throttle, the blow-off valve could open and dump a bunch of air in the space between the compressor and the MAF.
Your specific problem was that the MAF was actually measuring air going "out" instead of "in". That's why your voltages jumped. (MAF's can measure in any direction). Typically, this would only occur on light load/low boost situations (like cruising in 5th up a slight grade). At higher boost situations/higher load situations, the compressor was spinning fast enough to keep sucking in air (keep the air going in the proper direction irrespective of the quantity of air dumped in back of the MAF).
The problem was with the HR Stage 4 MAF (Ford), which I'm guessing you have (had).
I was aware of this problem many years ago back when the HR Stage 4 MAF was first offered. HR did nothing about it because they couldn't (at the time).
For some reason, different MAF housings and sampling tube designs are more succeptable to this problem more than others. The HR Stage 3 and lower did not have this problem. The Bullet that Lindsey (and probably others) sell, does not have this problem either.
Moving the MAF farther reduced the effect, but won't cure the problem. The only solution on the 951 recirculated setup is a different MAF sensor.
TonyG
05-27-2006, 11:25 AM
#18
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"Someone wanted to purchase the Vitesse MAF chip. This person insisted that I email him the code so he can burn it himself. It sounded funny, so I refused. Now, it's all clear as he's selling MAF chips."
That's BS. Sorry to hear that John. I take it you did not have a patent on the intellectual property?
You still could, I think, and then file a cease and desist.
That's BS. Sorry to hear that John. I take it you did not have a patent on the intellectual property?
You still could, I think, and then file a cease and desist.
05-27-2006, 12:22 PM
#20
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Originally Posted by TonyG
Tom M'Guinn
The problem you had was the fact that when you shut the throttle, the blow-off valve could open and dump a bunch of air in the space between the compressor and the MAF.
Your specific problem was that the MAF was actually measuring air going "out" instead of "in". That's why your voltages jumped. (MAF's can measure in any direction). Typically, this would only occur on light load/low boost situations (like cruising in 5th up a slight grade). At higher boost situations/higher load situations, the compressor was spinning fast enough to keep sucking in air (keep the air going in the proper direction irrespective of the quantity of air dumped in back of the MAF).
The problem was with the HR Stage 4 MAF (Ford), which I'm guessing you have (had).
I was aware of this problem many years ago back when the HR Stage 4 MAF was first offered. HR did nothing about it because they couldn't (at the time).
For some reason, different MAF housings and sampling tube designs are more succeptable to this problem more than others. The HR Stage 3 and lower did not have this problem. The Bullet that Lindsey (and probably others) sell, does not have this problem either.
Moving the MAF farther reduced the effect, but won't cure the problem. The only solution on the 951 recirculated setup is a different MAF sensor.
TonyG
The problem you had was the fact that when you shut the throttle, the blow-off valve could open and dump a bunch of air in the space between the compressor and the MAF.
Your specific problem was that the MAF was actually measuring air going "out" instead of "in". That's why your voltages jumped. (MAF's can measure in any direction). Typically, this would only occur on light load/low boost situations (like cruising in 5th up a slight grade). At higher boost situations/higher load situations, the compressor was spinning fast enough to keep sucking in air (keep the air going in the proper direction irrespective of the quantity of air dumped in back of the MAF).
The problem was with the HR Stage 4 MAF (Ford), which I'm guessing you have (had).
I was aware of this problem many years ago back when the HR Stage 4 MAF was first offered. HR did nothing about it because they couldn't (at the time).
For some reason, different MAF housings and sampling tube designs are more succeptable to this problem more than others. The HR Stage 3 and lower did not have this problem. The Bullet that Lindsey (and probably others) sell, does not have this problem either.
Moving the MAF farther reduced the effect, but won't cure the problem. The only solution on the 951 recirculated setup is a different MAF sensor.
TonyG
I've used both the HR stage 3 and 4 MAF's. Both will exhibit the problem to some extent. The stage 4 was a little jerky in start/stop traffic, because the idle flow generated such a low signal on that MAF. And, the MAF had to be clocked just right to avoid pronounced stumbling/dying when you shut the throttle off boost. The stage 3 has the issue too, but could be clocked to be pretty smooth in traffic and when you shut the throttle off boost.
I just finished installing the VR MAF/Chip board BTW. Nuff said.
05-27-2006, 07:20 PM
#21
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Originally Posted by toddk911
"Someone wanted to purchase the Vitesse MAF chip. This person insisted that I email him the code so he can burn it himself. It sounded funny, so I refused. Now, it's all clear as he's selling MAF chips."
That's BS. Sorry to hear that John. I take it you did not have a patent on the intellectual property?
You still could, I think, and then file a cease and desist.
That's BS. Sorry to hear that John. I take it you did not have a patent on the intellectual property?
You still could, I think, and then file a cease and desist.
05-28-2006, 04:52 AM
#23
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guys this is ridiculous. I have never seen the vitesse maf binary.
I started with an AFM chip, and modified the following standard bosch located configuration tables:
- temp compensation table
- transfer function tables 1,2 & 3
- FQS table (for injector sizing)
- part throttle fuel table
- full throttle fuel table
19 iterations later i have managed to get a pretty good match to the Lindsey MAF sensor up to 3.2ish volts. Above this level i made the decision to keep the curve smooth, as with the limited ability to configure the shape of the curve, it gets jaggard when trying to match the shape of the mustang sensor.
How the hell that can be the same as the all conquering Vitesse MAF software that John has repeatedly stated has been "reprogrammed" i don't know. Its targeted to the LINDSEY MAF, and it doesn't even match that exactly above 3.2 volts!
Yes i tried to buy the Vitesse MAF chip, it was out of my budget so i asked john if it would be cheaper just to buy the binary as i already have an eprom burner. No go, so i engineered my own over god knows how many hours road dynoing and 19 DME erase, reburn, and reinstall iterations that my back is still cursing me for. From this i have learnt enough to offer something back to Rennlist as i have always admired others doing such as Laust's vacuum manifold, ice sharks light kit etc etc
If anyone has any further concerns or questions, please let me know.
I started with an AFM chip, and modified the following standard bosch located configuration tables:
- temp compensation table
- transfer function tables 1,2 & 3
- FQS table (for injector sizing)
- part throttle fuel table
- full throttle fuel table
19 iterations later i have managed to get a pretty good match to the Lindsey MAF sensor up to 3.2ish volts. Above this level i made the decision to keep the curve smooth, as with the limited ability to configure the shape of the curve, it gets jaggard when trying to match the shape of the mustang sensor.
How the hell that can be the same as the all conquering Vitesse MAF software that John has repeatedly stated has been "reprogrammed" i don't know. Its targeted to the LINDSEY MAF, and it doesn't even match that exactly above 3.2 volts!
Yes i tried to buy the Vitesse MAF chip, it was out of my budget so i asked john if it would be cheaper just to buy the binary as i already have an eprom burner. No go, so i engineered my own over god knows how many hours road dynoing and 19 DME erase, reburn, and reinstall iterations that my back is still cursing me for. From this i have learnt enough to offer something back to Rennlist as i have always admired others doing such as Laust's vacuum manifold, ice sharks light kit etc etc
If anyone has any further concerns or questions, please let me know.
Last edited by hally; 05-28-2006 at 07:45 AM.
05-28-2006, 10:04 AM
#24
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Hally, interesting you think it was you I was talking about!!! I wonder why you had to reply and defend yourself?? I Don't care to let this go any further, but something doesn't add up here...
You knew the price of the chip all along, when I wouldn't email it to you, you went behind my back trying to get it from a source very close to Vitesse!!!! I post without a mention to you or to anyone else, yet you are the only person to respond defending himslef, why???
Reading your post does imply that you did a "superb" job re-engineering the code. Best of luck!
You knew the price of the chip all along, when I wouldn't email it to you, you went behind my back trying to get it from a source very close to Vitesse!!!! I post without a mention to you or to anyone else, yet you are the only person to respond defending himslef, why???
Reading your post does imply that you did a "superb" job re-engineering the code. Best of luck!
05-28-2006, 07:35 PM
#25
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I replied because people were interpreting it as directed towards me.
I PMed TT about it, big deal he is part of Vitesse also. I was keen to get on with driving my car and was trying to get a better deal.
Save your criteque of my work, i reckon i've done a pretty good job in 6 months of MAF ownership.
I PMed TT about it, big deal he is part of Vitesse also. I was keen to get on with driving my car and was trying to get a better deal.
Save your criteque of my work, i reckon i've done a pretty good job in 6 months of MAF ownership.
05-28-2006, 08:01 PM
#26
Three Wheelin'
I'll back up what hally says. He has been emailing back and forth with me about the transfer function and ways to modify it for other mafs for almost a whole year now.
The statements from Special Tool and Vitesse about TT being the ONLY source of information about Motronic are getting old at this point.
True both Hally and myself have tried asking questions about the code directly to Vitesse and TT, but neither were willing to help, understandable, no complaints. Then a year later when we figure something out, by piecing together information from what TT has posted on rennlist AND FROM OTHER SOURCES, you guys assume that the results were stolen from a vitesse chip. Why?
"Alpa" from the motroniccode.com that used to exist posted exactly how the transfer function works, something he figured out on his Alfa Romeo's with the same version of motronic, presumably without the help of TT. The next logical step was to modify it for the 951, exactly what Hally has done.
I find it unprofessional to make accusations like this Vitesse. Dont act like you arent aiming this directly at Hally, it is obvious to anyone who follows this forum.
"I Don't care to let this go any further, but something doesn't add up here..."
Typical statement out of you at this point, you do this in every thread where you are wrong about something.
The statements from Special Tool and Vitesse about TT being the ONLY source of information about Motronic are getting old at this point.
True both Hally and myself have tried asking questions about the code directly to Vitesse and TT, but neither were willing to help, understandable, no complaints. Then a year later when we figure something out, by piecing together information from what TT has posted on rennlist AND FROM OTHER SOURCES, you guys assume that the results were stolen from a vitesse chip. Why?
"Alpa" from the motroniccode.com that used to exist posted exactly how the transfer function works, something he figured out on his Alfa Romeo's with the same version of motronic, presumably without the help of TT. The next logical step was to modify it for the 951, exactly what Hally has done.
I find it unprofessional to make accusations like this Vitesse. Dont act like you arent aiming this directly at Hally, it is obvious to anyone who follows this forum.
"I Don't care to let this go any further, but something doesn't add up here..."
Typical statement out of you at this point, you do this in every thread where you are wrong about something.
05-28-2006, 09:45 PM
#28
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Do you guys even know how to read???? Read the post before typing! Did I ever accuse anyone? NO
Hally, again, if you did nothing wrong, why would you reply to a post where your name was never mentioned?? Did you do something wrong that my post hit the a nerve???
Mark944turbo, you have a great source of information, who cares??? I don't see the value of your post! Get information from whatever source you like...
Hally, again, if you did nothing wrong, why would you reply to a post where your name was never mentioned?? Did you do something wrong that my post hit the a nerve???
Mark944turbo, you have a great source of information, who cares??? I don't see the value of your post! Get information from whatever source you like...
05-28-2006, 10:55 PM
#30
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mark944turbo, show me where I accused Hally!! Learn how to read!!!!
Now the interesting thing is that we get many requests from people ( Hally and others) about getting the code in a binary form. I'm just surprised that Hally is defending himself, even though no one mentioned his name... I just find it very weird that he's so concerned about a post where no mention of him and his business... Why would he see the need to defend himself if he didn't do anything wrong and no one accused him? Why would he think the original post was toward him??? Weird isn't it? What's more weird is someone "with a chip burner" wanting to purchase software in a soft form so he can burn it on a chip himself, and few months later he's representing himself as business selling MAF software??? Again, I never accused anyone directly, just the responses I'm seeing make me wonder!!!!
Now as far as you sharing information with him, well this explains the "3 transfer function tables".. I guess there are 2 rev limits as well??
Now the interesting thing is that we get many requests from people ( Hally and others) about getting the code in a binary form. I'm just surprised that Hally is defending himself, even though no one mentioned his name... I just find it very weird that he's so concerned about a post where no mention of him and his business... Why would he see the need to defend himself if he didn't do anything wrong and no one accused him? Why would he think the original post was toward him??? Weird isn't it? What's more weird is someone "with a chip burner" wanting to purchase software in a soft form so he can burn it on a chip himself, and few months later he's representing himself as business selling MAF software??? Again, I never accused anyone directly, just the responses I'm seeing make me wonder!!!!
Now as far as you sharing information with him, well this explains the "3 transfer function tables".. I guess there are 2 rev limits as well??