cpt_koolbeenz

Well, I have been reading up on head gaskets again...
And again, I am faced with the option to go stock (or Widefire), or get some sort of metal variant (Cometic MLS, Guru).

I went with a Widefire for the simple fact that it is cheaper to blow a head gasket than burn a valve, piston, etc...

Also, if tuning is on, and the gasket is properly sealed, it should not blow with moderate boost levels (<20 psi).

My Widefire failed due to improper tuning, improper torquing, or some other reason... Haven't pulled the head yet to find out...

So, I wanted to hear some of your thoughts on the subject...

Stock gasket as cheap insurance, or metal gasket?

lart951

MLS for 2 years running 19-20 psi, no problems reported.

SD Porsche Fan

I found your answer in your question. Imagine if you had used a metal HG? Will your car aways be perfectly tuned?

cpt_koolbeenz

That is the idea...
I blew the gasket while I was tuning... So, I was in the process of making it better, but she blew before I had the chance. It only took about 8 miles!

But a metal gasket would not have blown. I also don't think I would have harmed the motor if I had used a metal gasket. Because I was aware of the poor tune and was correcting the problem.

cpt_koolbeenz

I would like to hear from those of you that decided to go with the metal gaskets... What made up your mind?

theedge

IMHO ill be sticking with Widefire. Like you said, its cheap insurance.

m42racer

I think this whole reasoning about using the Old sytle Gasket is good insurance makes no sense. Why not use the best that is available? If the issue is tuning, or poor tuning, then tune it correctly the first time. Use a good A/F meter and a knock display. The innovate system seem to be very popular and inexpensive. The Link knock display is also very good and inexpensive.

Use the best there is, tune the engine correctly and NEVER have to replace the head gasket, under any circumstances. This idea that having the old style gasket saved your engine is hokey at best. You still had to replace the gasket!

cpt_koolbeenz

<<<I think this whole reasoning about using the Old sytle Gasket is good insurance makes no sense.>>>

I would personally rather replace a blown head gasket than replace a burnt valve or piston... Anyone else on this one?

<<<Why not use the best that is available?>>
I do want to use the best available... That is what this post is about...

<<<If the issue is tuning, or poor tuning, then tune it correctly the first time.>>>
It's all clear now! I wasn't trying to get the head gasket to blow... The head gasket blew within 6 or so miles... Easier said then done... I WAS using a good wideband.

<<<Use the best there is, tune the engine correctly and NEVER have to replace the head gasket, under any circumstances.>>>
I really DO like that idea... And it makes perfect sense. But the choice doesn't seem perfectly black and white to me.

HOWEVER, a fiber gasket, IMHO, does provide protection in the event something goes wrong (however unlikely it may be: poor gas, vac lines popping off the FPR, etc. stranger things HAVE happened)...

<<<This idea that having the old style gasket saved your engine is hokey at best. You still had to replace the gasket!>>>
Hopefully my engine is saved... And replacing the gasket will be the most of my worries.


I like to hear everyone's opinion! Keep em coming!

m42racer

I cannot disagree more. Your reasoning is based upon the "world is flat" theory. I think all new engines are designed with a metal type of Gasket now. The idea that the "fuse" will help you is quite wrong. No one wants to hurt their engine, but within 6 miles you lost the gasket, you must be doing something really wrong. I suggest you give up and ask an expert to take over. What was the cause of the H/G failure? Have you establish this yet? Maybe establish this before you make any decisions about which Gasket is better.

Could the assembly be at fault? If within 6 miles you lost the Gasket because of mapping issues, and you are using a good W/B, then either it not as good as you think it is, you are not reading it right, or the sensor is bad. 6 miles and the Gasket blows. Did you hear any detenation? With 6 miles the engine must have been banging like crazy. I would suspect the assembly or inspection was not as good as it should be. Even the most lean and advanced conditions would net you more than 6 miles, and the Piston would have failed before the H/Gasket. Better re check your assembly and condition of the parts. I really think this is where your problem lies. Good luck.

cpt_koolbeenz

<<<What was the cause of the H/G failure? Have you establish this yet? Maybe establish this before you make any decisions about which Gasket is better.>>>
No, not yet... I will do that on Wednesday afternoon... I am really itching to look at it!
I came to the same conclusion. See what caused the failure, then decide. Good words of wisdom!

<<<Could the assembly be at fault?>>>
It is definitely possible that the studs were not as tight as they should have been (non-calibrated torque wrench)... I will find out soon.

<<<Did you hear any detenation? With 6 miles the engine must have been banging like crazy.>>>
Nothing heard at all. I WAS listening too.

6 miles seemed VERY, VERY, short to me too... I still can't believe it.
That is why I am leaning toward head stud tightness/or some other assembly problem.


On the tuning side of things, I had tuned my engine pretty nicely before the rebuild. It ran a flat A/F curve with safe levels 11.5-12.5... It ran 10k miles @ 16-19 PSI with no problems at all... Then came the TEC turbo-inclusion-in-the-casting problem that caused all the coolant to leak into the crankcase. That is why I had to do the rebuild (spun #2 bearing). Different turbo and different injectors caused the need for a re-tune.

Thanks for your input m42... could you expand on this <<<The idea that the "fuse" will help you is quite wrong.>>> a little more? I didn't come up with that idea myself. My reasoning is based on what I have read in this forum. I would love to hear why this reasoning is wrong, because then I could go with a metal gasket and feel utmost confidence in my decision.

Chris White

- Sarcasm on –

Wow – maybe you guys are on to something….lets improve on that concept – if you lower the head torque to 10 ft lbs then you will be really safe. Now you can be assured that ‘other things’ will not break first.

Next we are going to change all the fuses in the fuse box to 1 amp fuses….feeling safer already.

Wait a minute, if I put the DME into safe mode I will be limited to 1.2 – 1.4 bar absolute….that should add to the safety – now I can completely screw up the AFR and it won’t matter…

- Sarcasm off –

OK, where has anybody heard of a MLS equipped engine ‘exploding’? I have fried a MLS gasket…no damage to the engine. I have cracked a 951 cylinder – from top to bottom – with a stock (original 15 year old) head gasket – and the head gasket did not fail.

Besides – “cheap insurance” – what does it cost to swap a head gasket….that is never cheap in time and dollars.

And most important – head gaskets fail because you got something wrong…either the mating surfaces were not clean and flat, the engine management was way out of line and you pushed it anyway or you overheated the engine. If any of the above apply – see the following list –

• If you are teaching yourself how to work on 951s then you just paid your tuition bill.
• If you have done this twice – retire your tools and get professional help
• If an engine is not tuned correctly it will break if you run it hard – expect that to cost real money.

Chris White

PS – we been through this issue quite a few times….the real answer has not changed.

SD Porsche Fan

Based on this it sounds like the only difference is in expense. What is there to gain from an "upgraded" gasket if it is not the weak link?

Chris White

A couple of things –

• The MLS gasket is reusable – if you are going to tinker with your engine this can save some $ down the road.
• A properly installed MLS gasket does not need to be retorqued. Retorquing is a pain in the butt.
• The MLS gasket will last longer in the ‘bad’ zone. It is more resistant to high combustion chamber temps and pressures. You can survive a slight mistune that would toast a stock gasket.
• The MLS gasket can be ordered custom to support odd configurations – 106mm 2.5 blocks, additional thickness for blocks that have been machined.

Chris White

OriginalSterm

Could this be a Raceware vs. ARP vs. stock head stud debate/issue?

m42racer

Is there an echo here???

Now thats sarcasm!!