Best HG for O-ringed head?
01-07-2006, 10:07 AM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Best HG for O-ringed head?
Fellas,
I've done a few searches and have heard different opinions on this subject. For the most part, I read that as long as the A/F ratio is dialed in, you'll be okay no matter what. Being that the failure of the head gasket is due to lean A/F ratio and high heat that results from it. I also read that the Wide Fire HG is not an upgrade at all. But being that I have my head O-ringed, I don't know if the GURU ultimate HG is worth the extra money. I have both the stock HG and a WF HG new in a box. Which should I use? Or should I sell both on eBay and get the GURU ultimate or a full copper HG? Please share your thoughts. Thanks.
I've done a few searches and have heard different opinions on this subject. For the most part, I read that as long as the A/F ratio is dialed in, you'll be okay no matter what. Being that the failure of the head gasket is due to lean A/F ratio and high heat that results from it. I also read that the Wide Fire HG is not an upgrade at all. But being that I have my head O-ringed, I don't know if the GURU ultimate HG is worth the extra money. I have both the stock HG and a WF HG new in a box. Which should I use? Or should I sell both on eBay and get the GURU ultimate or a full copper HG? Please share your thoughts. Thanks.
01-09-2006, 11:37 PM
#4
Rennlist Junkie Forever
>>>The widefire HG was designed to be used with an o-ringed head. That is what you want. The widefire is not really an upgrade when the head is not o-ringed.<<<
Incorrect.
The wide fire gasket is a stock head gasket with the exception that one side of the fire ring is wider than the other (hence the nick name).
The reality is that this is the same as the stock 2.7L, S2, and 968 head gasket design used and installed by Porsche (which doesn't install "O" rings).
The wider side of the fire ring was designed like that to give the ring more structural rigidity making it less prone to deformation (the fire ring becoming out of round).
Bottom line is that you will gain benefit from using the wide fire gasket. The benefit is that you'll be using the lastest gasket design installed by Porsche. And the wide fire won't elongate quite so much compared to a regular stock gasket.
But don't think that the wide fire gasket is any less prone to have a hole burned through the fire ring. It is not. The fire ring thickness is the same.
TonyG
Incorrect.
The wide fire gasket is a stock head gasket with the exception that one side of the fire ring is wider than the other (hence the nick name).
The reality is that this is the same as the stock 2.7L, S2, and 968 head gasket design used and installed by Porsche (which doesn't install "O" rings).
The wider side of the fire ring was designed like that to give the ring more structural rigidity making it less prone to deformation (the fire ring becoming out of round).
Bottom line is that you will gain benefit from using the wide fire gasket. The benefit is that you'll be using the lastest gasket design installed by Porsche. And the wide fire won't elongate quite so much compared to a regular stock gasket.
But don't think that the wide fire gasket is any less prone to have a hole burned through the fire ring. It is not. The fire ring thickness is the same.
TonyG
01-10-2006, 08:42 AM
#5
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by mark944turbo
Whatever you do do not use a metal headgasket with the O-ringing.
O-ringing + Copper HG has been in racing already for decades. Cu head gaskets are the reason why O-ringing was used. You ca use Cu gasket without O-ringing, but it requires perfectly machined head and block + special sealant for oil and water gallerys.
It's right that HG is somewhat weaker point that acts as somekind of fuse in case of detonation. That protects other parts of the engine but if you have crap head gasket design (like 924/931) then Cu gasket is the only way to go. Plus it's cheap to make it. BTDT.
01-10-2006, 08:54 AM
#6
Originally Posted by TonyG
>>>The widefire HG was designed to be used with an o-ringed head. That is what you want. The widefire is not really an upgrade when the head is not o-ringed.<<<
Incorrect.
The wide fire gasket is a stock head gasket with the exception that one side of the fire ring is wider than the other (hence the nick name).
The reality is that this is the same as the stock 2.7L, S2, and 968 head gasket design used and installed by Porsche (which doesn't install "O" rings).
The wider side of the fire ring was designed like that to give the ring more structural rigidity making it less prone to deformation (the fire ring becoming out of round).
Bottom line is that you will gain benefit from using the wide fire gasket. The benefit is that you'll be using the lastest gasket design installed by Porsche. And the wide fire won't elongate quite so much compared to a regular stock gasket.
But don't think that the wide fire gasket is any less prone to have a hole burned through the fire ring. It is not. The fire ring thickness is the same.
TonyG
Incorrect.
The wide fire gasket is a stock head gasket with the exception that one side of the fire ring is wider than the other (hence the nick name).
The reality is that this is the same as the stock 2.7L, S2, and 968 head gasket design used and installed by Porsche (which doesn't install "O" rings).
The wider side of the fire ring was designed like that to give the ring more structural rigidity making it less prone to deformation (the fire ring becoming out of round).
Bottom line is that you will gain benefit from using the wide fire gasket. The benefit is that you'll be using the lastest gasket design installed by Porsche. And the wide fire won't elongate quite so much compared to a regular stock gasket.
But don't think that the wide fire gasket is any less prone to have a hole burned through the fire ring. It is not. The fire ring thickness is the same.
TonyG
Originally Posted by TonyG
Without a doubt, get the new full metal 3 piece head gasket.
The WideFire is nothing more than a stock head gasket with one SIDE (the wrong side!) a little wider. It's a joke that people even consider this an upgrade... as it's a piece of crap in my opinion.
Also, post a pic of the failed area of your head gasket. This will give good clues as to why you keep blowing the gaskets. Also, if you have a pair if inside calipers, measure the fire ring for roundness and report your findings.
The WideFire is nothing more than a stock head gasket with one SIDE (the wrong side!) a little wider. It's a joke that people even consider this an upgrade... as it's a piece of crap in my opinion.
Also, post a pic of the failed area of your head gasket. This will give good clues as to why you keep blowing the gaskets. Also, if you have a pair if inside calipers, measure the fire ring for roundness and report your findings.
Originally Posted by Danno
TonyG's right on as usual. For photos and analysis of failed headgaskets, please review my article here: http://www.gururacing.net/RennlistThreads/HeadgasketDissertation.pdf. Close-up photos and further discussion here: GURU Forums: Ultimate Headgasket
Last edited by streckfu's951; 01-10-2006 at 09:29 AM.
01-10-2006, 11:36 AM
#7
Rennlist Junkie Forever
streckfu's951
I'm not sure what you find strange.
You said that the wide fire gasket was designed to be used with an "O" ring. It is not. The reason for the design was outlined in my previous post.
However, people have been using these gaskets with "O" rings for years. And it works great (the sealing part). The problem is that the wide fire gasket is just as prone to be burned through as a stock gasket (which is the big problem with these engines in the first place).
TonyG
I'm not sure what you find strange.
You said that the wide fire gasket was designed to be used with an "O" ring. It is not. The reason for the design was outlined in my previous post.
However, people have been using these gaskets with "O" rings for years. And it works great (the sealing part). The problem is that the wide fire gasket is just as prone to be burned through as a stock gasket (which is the big problem with these engines in the first place).
TonyG
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01-10-2006, 11:51 AM
#8
Originally Posted by TonyG
streckfu's951
I'm not sure what you find strange.
TonyG
I'm not sure what you find strange.
TonyG
Originally Posted by TonyG
Bottom line is that you will gain benefit from using the wide fire gasket. The benefit is that you'll be using the lastest gasket design installed by Porsche. And the wide fire won't elongate quite so much compared to a regular stock gasket.
Originally Posted by TonyG
The WideFire is nothing more than a stock head gasket with one SIDE (the wrong side!) a little wider. It's a joke that people even consider this an upgrade... as it's a piece of crap in my opinion.
01-10-2006, 12:06 PM
#9
There is NO PROBLEM whatsoever with the Porsche 951 engine.
The problem has always been trying to manipulate the Motronic system in an incorrect manner.
Whether this is by misusing a good aftermarket system (APE), or the wrong aproach from the start (GURU).
An example of the misuse of a good system like APE would be to try to put more air through a system that was designed with a 350 RWHP ceiling. You might be able to do it, but you will always be afraid to raise the boost over say 18 psi - because you know (if you know anything) that you are pushing the limit.
This is not indicative of the ceiling of the 951 engine, it is indicative of the ceiling of bad management.
The problem has always been trying to manipulate the Motronic system in an incorrect manner.
Whether this is by misusing a good aftermarket system (APE), or the wrong aproach from the start (GURU).
An example of the misuse of a good system like APE would be to try to put more air through a system that was designed with a 350 RWHP ceiling. You might be able to do it, but you will always be afraid to raise the boost over say 18 psi - because you know (if you know anything) that you are pushing the limit.
This is not indicative of the ceiling of the 951 engine, it is indicative of the ceiling of bad management.
01-10-2006, 12:09 PM
#10
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Originally Posted by Fastest944Turbo
Good information TonyG 
Glad to see someone with knowledge can set it straight!
Glad to see someone with knowledge can set it straight!
01-10-2006, 12:45 PM
#11
Rennlist Junkie Forever
streckfu's951
You need to re-read my posts. You will never find me saying that the wide fire is a good solution.
Just because I said that the wide fire is better than the stock gasket, does not mean that I said it was a good solution.
The wide fire is only better in that is has less of a tendency to elongate due to the wider side of the fire ring and that you have a better surface for an "O" ring to "bite into". In this respect, it is better than a stock gasket. But that's it. That alone does not make it a good solution.
The stock gaseket, and the wide fire gaskets (with and without the "O" ring") seal good (which does not make it a good solution). I never said they did not. Not in any post, anywhere. But sealing good, and lasting are two very different things. When I talk about lasting, I'm talking about the fire ring burning through. This is where the stock and wide fire gaskets fall short in a big way. And this is where and why poeple (every single big name 951 engine builder) go to Cometic and copper gaskets (and other sorts of alternative solutions).
TonyG
You need to re-read my posts. You will never find me saying that the wide fire is a good solution.
Just because I said that the wide fire is better than the stock gasket, does not mean that I said it was a good solution.
The wide fire is only better in that is has less of a tendency to elongate due to the wider side of the fire ring and that you have a better surface for an "O" ring to "bite into". In this respect, it is better than a stock gasket. But that's it. That alone does not make it a good solution.
The stock gaseket, and the wide fire gaskets (with and without the "O" ring") seal good (which does not make it a good solution). I never said they did not. Not in any post, anywhere. But sealing good, and lasting are two very different things. When I talk about lasting, I'm talking about the fire ring burning through. This is where the stock and wide fire gaskets fall short in a big way. And this is where and why poeple (every single big name 951 engine builder) go to Cometic and copper gaskets (and other sorts of alternative solutions).
TonyG
01-10-2006, 01:11 PM
#12
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Tony: Since you are one of then old-timers here and looked upon as a 951 Guru, what is the best head gasket for my 3.0L 8V? I plan to run anywhere between 15 to 25PSI, using race gas of course. If you need to look at all the mods done to my car, please visit my home page. That should provide you with all the information you need. I would love to hear what you think is the best for my application. For if you think I have the wrong one in there, I will use your vast wisdom and change it out.
Thanks in advance.
Thanks in advance.
01-10-2006, 01:15 PM
#13
Originally Posted by TonyG
streckfu's951
You need to re-read my posts. You will never find me saying that the wide fire is a good solution.
Just because I said that the wide fire is better than the stock gasket, does not mean that I said it was a good solution.
The wide fire is only better in that is has less of a tendency to elongate due to the wider side of the fire ring and that you have a better surface for an "O" ring to "bite into". In this respect, it is better than a stock gasket. But that's it. That alone does not make it a good solution.
The stock gaseket, and the wide fire gaskets (with and without the "O" ring") seal good (which does not make it a good solution). I never said they did not. Not in any post, anywhere. But sealing good, and lasting are two very different things. When I talk about lasting, I'm talking about the fire ring burning through. This is where the stock and wide fire gaskets fall short in a big way. And this is where and why poeple (every single big name 951 engine builder) go to Cometic and copper gaskets (and other sorts of alternative solutions).
TonyG
You need to re-read my posts. You will never find me saying that the wide fire is a good solution.
Just because I said that the wide fire is better than the stock gasket, does not mean that I said it was a good solution.
The wide fire is only better in that is has less of a tendency to elongate due to the wider side of the fire ring and that you have a better surface for an "O" ring to "bite into". In this respect, it is better than a stock gasket. But that's it. That alone does not make it a good solution.
The stock gaseket, and the wide fire gaskets (with and without the "O" ring") seal good (which does not make it a good solution). I never said they did not. Not in any post, anywhere. But sealing good, and lasting are two very different things. When I talk about lasting, I'm talking about the fire ring burning through. This is where the stock and wide fire gaskets fall short in a big way. And this is where and why poeple (every single big name 951 engine builder) go to Cometic and copper gaskets (and other sorts of alternative solutions).
TonyG
Thanks for clearing it up.
01-10-2006, 02:10 PM
#14
Rennlist Junkie Forever
RolexNJ
I checked out your car. Nice machine. Nice mods.
I have quite a few comments, but I won't post them here (for various reasons).
Are you experiencing leakage? Using coolant? Have you been retorquing the Raceware Studs?
TonyG
I checked out your car. Nice machine. Nice mods.
I have quite a few comments, but I won't post them here (for various reasons).
Are you experiencing leakage? Using coolant? Have you been retorquing the Raceware Studs?
TonyG
01-10-2006, 02:17 PM
#15
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Originally Posted by TonyG
RolexNJ
I checked out your car. Nice machine. Nice mods.
I have quite a few comments, but I won't post them here (for various reasons).
Are you experiencing leakage? Using coolant? Have you been retorquing the Raceware Studs?
TonyG
I checked out your car. Nice machine. Nice mods.
I have quite a few comments, but I won't post them here (for various reasons).
Are you experiencing leakage? Using coolant? Have you been retorquing the Raceware Studs?
TonyG