951 vs E30
12-07-2005, 12:45 PM
#16
Three Wheelin'
Wes,
I think your e30 prices are pretty optimistic. It's going OT, but you don't account for brake upgrades in your pricing, and you're totally discounting the labor/fab work involved in fitting the V8 or swapping electronics for the m52.
I went down this road with my e30, and hit a wall at the point where I started seeking more hp. One thing that is frequently overlooked with the e30 is it's **** poor aero. It's a brick, and trying to get it past 140 mph is damn hard. Granted, you don't see those speeds too frequently, but I see 140 mph in my street-tired 951 routinely at WGI (optimistic speedo not accounted for). For either I6 that you described, you're looking at hp similar to or lower than the 951 in a brick. I'm not saying top speed is the end all/be all, but it sure makes those straights a lot shorter.
Sorry, but every time that someone hits the "easy engine swap" for the e30, I wonder how much they value their time. The changes you described for the 951 are well within the capabilities of the backyard wrencher and can be done over a weekend, but I think (don't know, but think) that the e30 engine swaps go a bit beyond that, especially the V8 that you described.
I will add the disclaimer that it's been a year or so, since I've run the numbers on the swap.
-Jon
I think your e30 prices are pretty optimistic. It's going OT, but you don't account for brake upgrades in your pricing, and you're totally discounting the labor/fab work involved in fitting the V8 or swapping electronics for the m52.
I went down this road with my e30, and hit a wall at the point where I started seeking more hp. One thing that is frequently overlooked with the e30 is it's **** poor aero. It's a brick, and trying to get it past 140 mph is damn hard. Granted, you don't see those speeds too frequently, but I see 140 mph in my street-tired 951 routinely at WGI (optimistic speedo not accounted for). For either I6 that you described, you're looking at hp similar to or lower than the 951 in a brick. I'm not saying top speed is the end all/be all, but it sure makes those straights a lot shorter.
Sorry, but every time that someone hits the "easy engine swap" for the e30, I wonder how much they value their time. The changes you described for the 951 are well within the capabilities of the backyard wrencher and can be done over a weekend, but I think (don't know, but think) that the e30 engine swaps go a bit beyond that, especially the V8 that you described.
I will add the disclaimer that it's been a year or so, since I've run the numbers on the swap.
-Jon
12-07-2005, 01:11 PM
#17
I have done/been involved in quite a few swaps. M52 is OBD-2, and thats not even an option. We have done OBD-1 2.8's. Its not near as difficult as anyone thinks. Its no harder than doing a timing belt, turbo swap, etc... The V8 is quite a bit more bolt in than one might think. I will be having swap kits out soon. Overall, its half as hard as the M50 series swaps. The hardest part is sourcing out the engine.
My prices weren't small at all. Infact, for me they are on the high side. I didn't account paying labor for either. M50 swap is $1550 labor, and I am sure doing a turbo upgrade is going to be pretty expensive as well. The same person that does a turbo upgrade can do a swap. My S50 cost me a hair over $2,000 installed, rebuilt. Why? I didn't pay an arm and leg for someone else to do my work. M50 swap a friend and I did on another car was $800 engine, $300 tranny/3.73LSD, and another $300 in misc. parts like the brake booster, master cylinder, radiator, etc. Runs flawlessly, not a hiccup.
My M60 swap is costing even less. I am in just a hair under $1000 for the engine rebuilt, already have the tranny, and I am going to stand alone. Add another $1000 for Haltech E6X, and I have internal sources for tuning that won't cost me. Turbo kit overall will be another $2,000 on top of that. I am not being low on my numbers. I am not saying anyone can do what I can do, but I am saying its possible.
I have yet to track where I can get above 140/150. I have had my E30 M3 pinging at 160 indicated, moreless about 155 at 8000. No shakyness, no nothing. Carryed it for quite a while. I am pretty sure I could have gone a solid 170 with lower gearing and more power. Not saying how long it took me to get there
, but I did it. E30 is a brick, but I really don't think topend matters that much. At my largest track, VIR which the full course is 4.5 miles, I can maybe hit 160. Full out Grand Am cup cars barely hit 180. I don't think its near as bad as you imagine it being! I also don't think your 951 can go much higher than that! Last I heard, 175 was the peak of gearing.
If you were to take your E30, bring it to a highly regarded shop for the swap, handed them the keys, and told them you wanted 250whp, you would have a bill around $10,000. If you brought you 951 to Lindsey Racing, told them you wanted their turbo kit will all supporting mods, installed and tuned, I would bet you wouldn't be far behind!
Wes
Edit: I didn't add in brakes, you are right. Brakes are lacking, but that is completely based on personal preference. Most guys don't do upgrades, and don't have problems every day. I am going with much bigger brakes, and I didn't account that in. There isn't much available for the E30, so as a whole pricing is really based on what you can do yourself. I am going to be in about $700 front for a Wilwood setup. E36 M3 kits bolt in to a 5-lug swapped car same as they do on E36's. Cost is about $3-500 total. They are MORE than enough brakes for most people. Some guys have upped to E46 M3 brakes as well, but require 17's minimum.
My prices weren't small at all. Infact, for me they are on the high side. I didn't account paying labor for either. M50 swap is $1550 labor, and I am sure doing a turbo upgrade is going to be pretty expensive as well. The same person that does a turbo upgrade can do a swap. My S50 cost me a hair over $2,000 installed, rebuilt. Why? I didn't pay an arm and leg for someone else to do my work. M50 swap a friend and I did on another car was $800 engine, $300 tranny/3.73LSD, and another $300 in misc. parts like the brake booster, master cylinder, radiator, etc. Runs flawlessly, not a hiccup.
My M60 swap is costing even less. I am in just a hair under $1000 for the engine rebuilt, already have the tranny, and I am going to stand alone. Add another $1000 for Haltech E6X, and I have internal sources for tuning that won't cost me. Turbo kit overall will be another $2,000 on top of that. I am not being low on my numbers. I am not saying anyone can do what I can do, but I am saying its possible.
I have yet to track where I can get above 140/150. I have had my E30 M3 pinging at 160 indicated, moreless about 155 at 8000. No shakyness, no nothing. Carryed it for quite a while. I am pretty sure I could have gone a solid 170 with lower gearing and more power. Not saying how long it took me to get there
, but I did it. E30 is a brick, but I really don't think topend matters that much. At my largest track, VIR which the full course is 4.5 miles, I can maybe hit 160. Full out Grand Am cup cars barely hit 180. I don't think its near as bad as you imagine it being! I also don't think your 951 can go much higher than that! Last I heard, 175 was the peak of gearing.If you were to take your E30, bring it to a highly regarded shop for the swap, handed them the keys, and told them you wanted 250whp, you would have a bill around $10,000. If you brought you 951 to Lindsey Racing, told them you wanted their turbo kit will all supporting mods, installed and tuned, I would bet you wouldn't be far behind!
Wes
Edit: I didn't add in brakes, you are right. Brakes are lacking, but that is completely based on personal preference. Most guys don't do upgrades, and don't have problems every day. I am going with much bigger brakes, and I didn't account that in. There isn't much available for the E30, so as a whole pricing is really based on what you can do yourself. I am going to be in about $700 front for a Wilwood setup. E36 M3 kits bolt in to a 5-lug swapped car same as they do on E36's. Cost is about $3-500 total. They are MORE than enough brakes for most people. Some guys have upped to E46 M3 brakes as well, but require 17's minimum.
Last edited by whakiewes; 12-07-2005 at 01:19 PM. Reason: Addition of information
12-07-2005, 02:11 PM
#18
Three Wheelin'
Wes,
I stand corrected. I'd nitpick about the e30 M3 aero vs. the others, but it's pretty moot. I'd say it sounds like you're pushing some pretty serious speeds. If you make it up to one of the northern tracks, please let me know, as I'd love to check out your setup.
I still think the bricks are damn sexy. I had an MTech front splitter on the black car that I sold. I still think it was one of the better looking e30's (non-M3) out there.
-Jon
I stand corrected. I'd nitpick about the e30 M3 aero vs. the others, but it's pretty moot. I'd say it sounds like you're pushing some pretty serious speeds. If you make it up to one of the northern tracks, please let me know, as I'd love to check out your setup.
I still think the bricks are damn sexy. I had an MTech front splitter on the black car that I sold. I still think it was one of the better looking e30's (non-M3) out there.
-Jon
12-07-2005, 02:48 PM
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Thanks for all the info guys. Wes how did you get your S50/M60 for so cheap? I used to read up on E30 forums all the time and those prices are cheaper than any I have seen. Do you work at a shop? If I could find the engines and parts that cheap then I would defiantly consider keeping the E30. However as it stands the 951 seems like the better bang for the buck. So for power lets just say its a draw as both have a lot of potential.
Which one has the edge in handling potential though? It sounds like most of you are saying the 951 right? Which one would you say makes you feel more confident on the edge? Also which one communicates better to the driver would you say?
Which one has the edge in handling potential though? It sounds like most of you are saying the 951 right? Which one would you say makes you feel more confident on the edge? Also which one communicates better to the driver would you say?
12-07-2005, 03:24 PM
#20
951 will be faster in almost any catagory at any track. There is no doubting that. Porsche, although Audi actually built it 
, goes above and beyond the call of duty on all of their cars. 951 with the right owner, and the right mods will be faster, compared to almost any BMW. But there is a lot more that goes with a 951. 951 requires constant attention, very similar to my former E30 M3. You can't wait until something breaks to fix it, or else you will be in more than you can handle. There is enough around that preventative maitenence can be done.
A clean, lower mileage OR updated 951 with an LSD, and an up to par engine will provide a much better bang for the buck than any E30 will. But its all on the person driving. I would rather have a car that I know will start every day of the week, and doesn't require a lot of attention. Thats why I sold my E30 M3. Porsche parts are generally more expensive as a whole as well. I can have every ratio LSD big case for the cost of ONE used LSD 951 transmission. For the cost of a stock 951 steering rack and tie rods, I can have a 12.9:1 Z3 steering rack installed. For the cost of a set of decent, not OEM Koni coilovers for the 951 I can have coilovers, sways, bushings, and wheels/tires on an E30.
Being a BMW guy, here is my stand. If I had the option of an S50 E30 cleanly swapped with good mods or a CLEAN 951 w/ LSD and some mods, it would be the 951 any day. Its a far superior car IMO, but a far more expensive car all together. I have found its really similar to the E30 M3 $10k dollar rule. If you buy an E30 M3 for $7k, expect to spend $3,000 to get it to average condition. Buy a $12,000 dollar example and its either exceptional or is average with about $5,000 in modifications. I think 951's follow a very similar plan, except on a slightly lower scale. For what you could get evenly selling your 325i, I would rather keep the 325i and mod it. If I had a 10k dollar budget, it would be a clean 951 w/ an LSD. $5k, keep the 325i, save, and mod. Just my opinion.
Wes
Over Boost: PM me. I have a couple of engines we can work out a deal for if you would like. I would be hesitant to jump straight into an S50'ed E30. It takes work to control. Induced, it struggles to get traction all the way through 3rd gear. In the rain, you might as well just walk. But, in the same sense, its the most fun I have ever had in a car. The look when your E30 on 14" wheels spinning pulls on an STi is almost priceless!
, goes above and beyond the call of duty on all of their cars. 951 with the right owner, and the right mods will be faster, compared to almost any BMW. But there is a lot more that goes with a 951. 951 requires constant attention, very similar to my former E30 M3. You can't wait until something breaks to fix it, or else you will be in more than you can handle. There is enough around that preventative maitenence can be done. A clean, lower mileage OR updated 951 with an LSD, and an up to par engine will provide a much better bang for the buck than any E30 will. But its all on the person driving. I would rather have a car that I know will start every day of the week, and doesn't require a lot of attention. Thats why I sold my E30 M3. Porsche parts are generally more expensive as a whole as well. I can have every ratio LSD big case for the cost of ONE used LSD 951 transmission. For the cost of a stock 951 steering rack and tie rods, I can have a 12.9:1 Z3 steering rack installed. For the cost of a set of decent, not OEM Koni coilovers for the 951 I can have coilovers, sways, bushings, and wheels/tires on an E30.
Being a BMW guy, here is my stand. If I had the option of an S50 E30 cleanly swapped with good mods or a CLEAN 951 w/ LSD and some mods, it would be the 951 any day. Its a far superior car IMO, but a far more expensive car all together. I have found its really similar to the E30 M3 $10k dollar rule. If you buy an E30 M3 for $7k, expect to spend $3,000 to get it to average condition. Buy a $12,000 dollar example and its either exceptional or is average with about $5,000 in modifications. I think 951's follow a very similar plan, except on a slightly lower scale. For what you could get evenly selling your 325i, I would rather keep the 325i and mod it. If I had a 10k dollar budget, it would be a clean 951 w/ an LSD. $5k, keep the 325i, save, and mod. Just my opinion.
Wes
Over Boost: PM me. I have a couple of engines we can work out a deal for if you would like. I would be hesitant to jump straight into an S50'ed E30. It takes work to control. Induced, it struggles to get traction all the way through 3rd gear. In the rain, you might as well just walk. But, in the same sense, its the most fun I have ever had in a car. The look when your E30 on 14" wheels spinning pulls on an STi is almost priceless!
12-07-2005, 03:28 PM
#21
Three Wheelin'
e30 takes the cake for turn-in, steering feel. I've driven multiple 951's, and they don't compare to the directness of the e30. Handling-wise, the 951 seems to be the victor based on magazine tests; the lateral g's are far better for the 951. A wider track and a lower cg are the main contributors, I'd guess.
Wes, don't try to bring up the e30 M3.
For balance, I think the 951 is more neutral, while the e30 is a bit more tail happy. The 951 provides much greater adjustment in the suspension. (Adjust that rear camber/toe much on the e30, Wes?) This is pretty handy when you're seeking the ultimate setup on the track.
That said, anyone want to trade a track prepped 951 for a similar e36 M3?
I agree with pretty much everything Wes has said, btw. Although, I'm not kicking myself in the nuts for not making the jump to the M50.
-Jon
Wes, don't try to bring up the e30 M3.
For balance, I think the 951 is more neutral, while the e30 is a bit more tail happy. The 951 provides much greater adjustment in the suspension. (Adjust that rear camber/toe much on the e30, Wes?)
This is pretty handy when you're seeking the ultimate setup on the track. That said, anyone want to trade a track prepped 951 for a similar e36 M3?
I agree with pretty much everything Wes has said, btw. Although, I'm not kicking myself in the nuts for not making the jump to the M50.
-Jon
12-07-2005, 03:42 PM
#22
Jon,
I would say your opinions are pretty correct based on my experiences as well. I wasn't bringing the E30 M3 in this for comparison, just value wise. E30 325 and E30 M3 are two totally different cars...I would know. Stock we don't get much adjustment, but I bet for the price of a set of Leda coilovers, I can have coilovers, sways, rear camber arms, bushings, and more . Realistically though, a good comparison value wise would be E30 M3 vs. 951. In that case....well I won't go there.
Jon, give me the details on your 951. I might be interested, and I know a few people that are looking to ummmm upgrade??? E36 M3 is a fun car, but not my cup of tea. Multi-link rear suspension takes the complete fun factor away.
I would say your opinions are pretty correct based on my experiences as well. I wasn't bringing the E30 M3 in this for comparison, just value wise. E30 325 and E30 M3 are two totally different cars...I would know
. Stock we don't get much adjustment, but I bet for the price of a set of Leda coilovers, I can have coilovers, sways, rear camber arms, bushings, and more . Realistically though, a good comparison value wise would be E30 M3 vs. 951. In that case....well I won't go there.Jon, give me the details on your 951. I might be interested, and I know a few people that are looking to ummmm upgrade??? E36 M3 is a fun car, but not my cup of tea. Multi-link rear suspension takes the complete fun factor away
.
Last edited by whakiewes; 12-07-2005 at 03:42 PM. Reason: name
12-07-2005, 09:37 PM
#24
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I still don't get why everyone knocks the 951 for it's reliability. I for one have a 951 that treats me well. I also happen to have an E30 that has never fully run correctly and has broken itself more often that I can count. Maybe the exception to the rule, but I have a theory that both are made equally well, but the E30 owners from their early days didn't abuse them as much as the turbos' owners did. Find a good 951 and you're going to have a great, reliable sports car.
E30 handling: "tossable." That's really the way I describe it. I have Bilsteins with H&R springs on my car. I also have a front strut tower brace and it rides on some nice autocross tires (Falken Azenis). It never seems to want to stay going in one direction. It asks to have the wheel cranked. It lives for lower speed twisties (autocross type).
951 handling: "incredible." It never seems out of line. It's very happy going in a straight line at any speed (even at high speeds with a bad alignment, it isn't scary somehow). It doesn't seem to ask for trouble, yet when you DO crank the wheel through the twisties, it never seems to lose composure, and really starts to shine as the speeds grow. Get the *** end out far? Casually put your right foot down and don't sweat it, it'll come back in line just fine It lives for higher speed turns (road course type).
E30 over a 951? Not a chance in hell, even including the M3. The E30 M3 is my favorite, and it's an incredible car, but it's not a 951's match in my book. Small mods on a 951 will have you running with E46 M3s in the straights and twisties, 'nuff said.
E30 handling: "tossable." That's really the way I describe it. I have Bilsteins with H&R springs on my car. I also have a front strut tower brace and it rides on some nice autocross tires (Falken Azenis). It never seems to want to stay going in one direction. It asks to have the wheel cranked. It lives for lower speed twisties (autocross type).
951 handling: "incredible." It never seems out of line. It's very happy going in a straight line at any speed (even at high speeds with a bad alignment, it isn't scary somehow). It doesn't seem to ask for trouble, yet when you DO crank the wheel through the twisties, it never seems to lose composure, and really starts to shine as the speeds grow. Get the *** end out far? Casually put your right foot down and don't sweat it, it'll come back in line just fine
It lives for higher speed turns (road course type).E30 over a 951? Not a chance in hell, even including the M3. The E30 M3 is my favorite, and it's an incredible car, but it's not a 951's match in my book. Small mods on a 951 will have you running with E46 M3s in the straights and twisties, 'nuff said.
12-07-2005, 11:05 PM
#25
Burning Brakes
From my perspective - I am keeping my cars stock or will be upgrading suspension in the future. You mentioned motor swaps which is a whole different budget perspective.
I have owned my 91 IX for almost a year - maintenance has been - timing belt/waterpump/brake pads/rotors and a new plastic spoiler lip. I bought it because I wanted the perfect daily driver in bad weather - I am very happy with the car and dont see the maintenace to be as costly or complex as the P-car. I have done a few DEs with my 89 944T - it is my favorite as a track car and as an occaisional nice day driver 9 mo/yr. I've owned my 89 944T for about 3 years, during which time I have replaced brake rotors/pads/radiator/timing belt/waterpump/headgasket plus one aftermarket stainless exhaust. A more serious trackable suspension upgrade will be next as my driving skills improve. I basically worry alot less about the BMW than the Porsche mainly due to the comparative value of the vehicles. The utility of the hatchback in the 944 is great making it alot more versatile than other cars in its class but if you want to travel with 3 friends - youre screwed. When the IX needs new suspension - I will likely upgrade to something more trackable but thats about it.
Get the 951 and keep the 325.
I have owned my 91 IX for almost a year - maintenance has been - timing belt/waterpump/brake pads/rotors and a new plastic spoiler lip. I bought it because I wanted the perfect daily driver in bad weather - I am very happy with the car and dont see the maintenace to be as costly or complex as the P-car. I have done a few DEs with my 89 944T - it is my favorite as a track car and as an occaisional nice day driver 9 mo/yr. I've owned my 89 944T for about 3 years, during which time I have replaced brake rotors/pads/radiator/timing belt/waterpump/headgasket plus one aftermarket stainless exhaust. A more serious trackable suspension upgrade will be next as my driving skills improve. I basically worry alot less about the BMW than the Porsche mainly due to the comparative value of the vehicles. The utility of the hatchback in the 944 is great making it alot more versatile than other cars in its class but if you want to travel with 3 friends - youre screwed. When the IX needs new suspension - I will likely upgrade to something more trackable but thats about it.
Get the 951 and keep the 325.
Last edited by steve g; 12-07-2005 at 11:35 PM.
12-08-2005, 02:41 PM
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haha I too have both cars (and a miata). Of all things, I daily drive the 951 and track/ race the E30 and track the miata. Ive had 2 951s and both have been good to me with regular maintainance. I personally feel that the E30 offers slightly more "feel" and is more tossable, but the 951 is much more planted at speed. All are fun on track, but i worry about the 951 everytime i put it on track, that I will break somthing then have to fix it, Its never happened, but its a concern of mine that I never have when i flog the bmw or the miata. The 951 brake feel and performance is FAR superior to the E30, that and the power is what really set them apart... with that said I am on my 5th E30, I love them and feel that very few cars have ever been built that are as tough and well rounded as E30s. Buy the 951, then buy an old eta to beat around in, you will have the best of both worlds
12-08-2005, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Zu_langsam
Buy the 951, then buy an old eta to beat around in, you will have the best of both worlds
Yea I think that’s what I’m going to do. I'll sell the E30 and get the 951. I figure if I don’t get a 951 now then its only going to cost me more later. Where as the E30 should still be pretty cheap by comparison a few years down the line.
