wide fire head gasket
11-28-2005, 06:47 PM
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wide fire head gasket
hey, I have a quick question. im Building a hot 944 turbo moto and I ordered a widefire head gasket. for some reason I dont think its right. Does anyone have any pics of both sides of one I can see. also, who is the manufacturer for these. I know wrightwood racing makes them, but the one i got was from victor reinz. do the make them also?? thanks for the help
-Ken
-Ken
11-28-2005, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Sam Lin
Reinz makes them and they look basically identical to a stock HG, excepting the wider metal fire rings on each cylinder.
Sam
Sam
11-28-2005, 10:02 PM
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yea, but how much wider is it? the one I got is wider on the side facing the cylinder than the side facing the head. the side facing the head is 4mm and the side facing down is 8mm. any one know for sure??
11-28-2005, 10:07 PM
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Do a search. Danno had a really informative post regarding the WFHG. Basically he found that if you do not have an o-ringed head, it does absolutely nothing for you. It's designedto be 2mm wider on the head side to give the o-ring a better surface to mate with.
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11-28-2005, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by streckfu's951
Do a search. Danno had a really informative post regarding the WFHG. Basically he found that if you do not have an o-ringed head, it does absolutely nothing for you. It's designedto be 2mm wider on the head side to give the o-ring a better surface to mate with.
11-29-2005, 12:36 AM
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very interesting link. I do have the head o ringed, that is why I am using the wide fire gasket. I guess I have the right one, it is about twice as wide on the bottom as it is on the top. it also has a knife edged and polished crank, carrillo rods, ARP head studs, ported and polished head and intake, and a lot of other stuff. thanks for the responses
11-30-2005, 03:44 AM
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The widefire, does in fact offer advantages over a stock gasket.
The reason the one side of the metal ring is wider is to reduce the elongation of the fire ring. The elongation is and has always been a problem since the bores move so much (relatively speaking). If you look at it structurally, this is the only possible explanation.
How much is the difference? Who knows.
But if you look at every 2.7L, S2, and 968 gasket, you'll see basically the same gasket as the wide fire with the exception of the bore diameter and the water neck openening. (wider fire ring on one side).
The problem with all of the stock gaskets is that the fire ring is soooooo easily burned through. They need to make these with a stainless wire embedded in the "U" (ala American V8 gaskets).
TonyG
TonyG
The reason the one side of the metal ring is wider is to reduce the elongation of the fire ring. The elongation is and has always been a problem since the bores move so much (relatively speaking). If you look at it structurally, this is the only possible explanation.
How much is the difference? Who knows.
But if you look at every 2.7L, S2, and 968 gasket, you'll see basically the same gasket as the wide fire with the exception of the bore diameter and the water neck openening. (wider fire ring on one side).
The problem with all of the stock gaskets is that the fire ring is soooooo easily burned through. They need to make these with a stainless wire embedded in the "U" (ala American V8 gaskets).
TonyG
TonyG
12-02-2005, 02:08 AM
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i have run 30 psi on a wide fire with o-ring the problem you guys are having is the head has a steam pocket that cause an air over hydraulic compression of the gasket. we at LR have found the problem in the head and have a fix. it's our steam vent kit which removes the air pocket and lets is fill with coolant. If you look at the head gasket thats blown you will see that the gasket is pushed down over the water passage around the cylinder which pulls the ring out from under the cylinder o-ring not the pressure of the cylinder pushing it out. if this were the case it wouldn't always be push down it would go up and down
12-02-2005, 02:52 AM
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stewardx
Who is "we at LR" ?
And what do you mean by "our" ? Are you part of "LR"?
Nevertheless, I don't "buy it".
The fire ring is elongating due to cylinder head and cylinder bore movement (or rather it's more likely the movement that allows the cylinder pressure to move the gasket). When this happens, there's no place for the gasket to go except into the only available area... which is down... between the cylinder block and the cylinder bore. It may be stretched as a result of this action, but nothing else.
The following statement is clearly not capable of happening since the gasket cannot go 'up'...:
" if this were the case it wouldn't always be push down it would go up and down"
Pretty basic stuff. And this is exactly the reason why Porsche ( and/or Victor Reinz) made the "wide fire" wider on one side of the fire ring... and is the exact same reason that all 2.7L, S2, and 968's have the exact same design.
The extra width on the side of the fire ring makes the fire ring structurally stronger with respect to elongation (nothing else).. and is probably why he engineers at Porsche and Victor Reinz made the changes they did (which is pretty much only usefull on a semi-stock application, which worked for them I'm sure).
BTW, I'm an EE, not a mechanical engineer.. what is, "air over hydraulic compression"?
TonyG
Who is "we at LR" ?
And what do you mean by "our" ? Are you part of "LR"?
Nevertheless, I don't "buy it".
The fire ring is elongating due to cylinder head and cylinder bore movement (or rather it's more likely the movement that allows the cylinder pressure to move the gasket). When this happens, there's no place for the gasket to go except into the only available area... which is down... between the cylinder block and the cylinder bore. It may be stretched as a result of this action, but nothing else.
The following statement is clearly not capable of happening since the gasket cannot go 'up'...:
" if this were the case it wouldn't always be push down it would go up and down"
Pretty basic stuff. And this is exactly the reason why Porsche ( and/or Victor Reinz) made the "wide fire" wider on one side of the fire ring... and is the exact same reason that all 2.7L, S2, and 968's have the exact same design.
The extra width on the side of the fire ring makes the fire ring structurally stronger with respect to elongation (nothing else).. and is probably why he engineers at Porsche and Victor Reinz made the changes they did (which is pretty much only usefull on a semi-stock application, which worked for them I'm sure).
BTW, I'm an EE, not a mechanical engineer.. what is, "air over hydraulic compression"?
TonyG