3.0 Liter Options
11-03-2005, 08:54 PM
#46
Race Car
Hi John-
"Now if you want a 3L turbo on the very inexpensive side, and you don't care about 100% efficiency, you can do the followings: Get a 3L 16V short block, replace the rods with 951 rods, bolt a 951 modifed head or a 2.7l head, use a thick head gasket and you have a 3L with low compression that you can turbo. However, this is NOT a good method of doing things, just the least expensive."
Still nearly as inexpensive and without the bandaid thick head gaskt and piston and head maching to lower compression is just to add the correct pistons, still cheap (as my original post on the topic) and there's no reason anyone can supply hard evidence that it would not be as reliable as any other engine built or in the process...
TS
"Now if you want a 3L turbo on the very inexpensive side, and you don't care about 100% efficiency, you can do the followings: Get a 3L 16V short block, replace the rods with 951 rods, bolt a 951 modifed head or a 2.7l head, use a thick head gasket and you have a 3L with low compression that you can turbo. However, this is NOT a good method of doing things, just the least expensive."
Still nearly as inexpensive and without the bandaid thick head gaskt and piston and head maching to lower compression is just to add the correct pistons, still cheap (as my original post on the topic) and there's no reason anyone can supply hard evidence that it would not be as reliable as any other engine built or in the process...
TS
11-03-2005, 09:24 PM
#48
Race Car
ehall- by the many recipes, I meant personal additions/preferences like cross drilling, knife edging, etc.
"These are always good discussions. They allow a lot of creative thinking to emerge. Sometimes it's just a tough crowd."
Agreed...I don't post here very often (maybe I shouldn't have..
) but I trade emails with a few people from here pretty regularly....aamof, I think you and I discussed a custom splitter that I made once upon a time.....?
TS
"These are always good discussions. They allow a lot of creative thinking to emerge. Sometimes it's just a tough crowd."
Agreed...I don't post here very often (maybe I shouldn't have..
) but I trade emails with a few people from here pretty regularly....aamof, I think you and I discussed a custom splitter that I made once upon a time.....?TS
11-03-2005, 09:38 PM
#49
Race Car
Fishey, I don't have any tecnical data for you but as far as I remember ID's of both crank journal end and piston pin are identical as well as center-center.
The 951 rod has more mass and a more squared "I-beam" design making the 968's smaller profile and rounded shape theoretically better at reduction of windage or drag inside the crankcase.
According to Porsche literature, connecting rod nuts were changed from a smooth surface where the nut contacts the rod cap-to the knurled type nuts that are available for replacement today when the material of the rod was changed from sinter forged to cast, citing "better compatability" at the time that the material was changed but there's been much dispute about which rods are actually forged or cast.....
I probably have some pics I could dig up of each for you....
Aamof, there's a set of used 968 or S2 rods right now on ebay that has pics.
TS
The 951 rod has more mass and a more squared "I-beam" design making the 968's smaller profile and rounded shape theoretically better at reduction of windage or drag inside the crankcase.
According to Porsche literature, connecting rod nuts were changed from a smooth surface where the nut contacts the rod cap-to the knurled type nuts that are available for replacement today when the material of the rod was changed from sinter forged to cast, citing "better compatability" at the time that the material was changed but there's been much dispute about which rods are actually forged or cast.....
I probably have some pics I could dig up of each for you....
Aamof, there's a set of used 968 or S2 rods right now on ebay that has pics.
TS
11-04-2005, 12:18 AM
#50
Rennlist Member
In addition to your list, you also need to tap the balance shaft cover for the turbo oil feed. You will want forged rods from a 951 or aftermarket. Use the pan and oil pick-up that came with the block. The 2.7 head is a better starting point, but costs a lot -- not sure there is any real debate on that (at least among the high end engine builders). You will probably want raceware or ARP head studs too. Over-size pistons are 104.5mm -- this allows you to bore and hone the block to restore the cylinder walls and clearance. You also need a 951 style oil thermostat housing, assuming you want to run a 951 oil cooler.
Originally Posted by dlr944
Appreciate all the inputs. Just to clarify, I am most interested in understanding the necessary mechanical components to build a 3.0 liter. I prefer not to debut costs but instead learn what options and modifications are required for this type of build. There seems to be many configurations and options to build a long block.
To summarize, is this a correct list of major mechanical items or modifications for long-block?:
1. 3.0 liter block (968 perfer due oil squirters)
2. 104mm Mahle turbo pistons
3. Rods (if one choses to replace)
4. Modification to 2.5 liter oil pan or modicafication to 3.0 liter oil pan (not sure what's the best option?)
5. Modification to 2.5 liter head or 2.7 head (seems like their is some debut over what's best?)
6. 3.0 liter crank
Anything else?
Also, I don't know what is meant by over-sized pistons vs 104mm?
"FYI, Lindsey does not have the 104mm pistons despite what their web site says. The only have the over-sized available. The last time I spoke with Andial (a month or two ago) they didn’t have the 104’s either and didn’t have them in sight any time soon so 1st oversized is the only option right now which is going to add an extra $500."
Lastely, can a 2.5 liter block be turned into a 3.0 liter motor - more specifically, by using MID (Darton) sleeves with 104mm pistons and a 3.0 liter crank will result in 3.0 liters of displacement?
Thanks,
To summarize, is this a correct list of major mechanical items or modifications for long-block?:
1. 3.0 liter block (968 perfer due oil squirters)
2. 104mm Mahle turbo pistons
3. Rods (if one choses to replace)
4. Modification to 2.5 liter oil pan or modicafication to 3.0 liter oil pan (not sure what's the best option?)
5. Modification to 2.5 liter head or 2.7 head (seems like their is some debut over what's best?)
6. 3.0 liter crank
Anything else?
Also, I don't know what is meant by over-sized pistons vs 104mm?
"FYI, Lindsey does not have the 104mm pistons despite what their web site says. The only have the over-sized available. The last time I spoke with Andial (a month or two ago) they didn’t have the 104’s either and didn’t have them in sight any time soon so 1st oversized is the only option right now which is going to add an extra $500."
Lastely, can a 2.5 liter block be turned into a 3.0 liter motor - more specifically, by using MID (Darton) sleeves with 104mm pistons and a 3.0 liter crank will result in 3.0 liters of displacement?
Thanks,
11-04-2005, 10:44 AM
#51
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I have compared the rods and snapped a picture of the rods on my shelf for you to review. While the 951 rod is still beefy, it is a bit heavy, the bolts are lacking and the balance wasn’t that great. From l to R, 968 rod, 951 rod, Pauter rod.
11-04-2005, 10:56 AM
#52
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Lets see if I can add a little list here –
(BTW - as I see it the real debate is what is included as an engine build up, so feel free to add up the following list as you see fit)
This is a material only list you the DIY assembler!
Don’t forget to add a day or so of labor for just cleaning parts (or a bunch of $ for a good parts cleaner and bead blast cabinet)
Used Parts
$500 - $1000 Used 3.0 block (can be badly scored)
$800 - $1200 Used 3.0 Crank
$300 Used 2.5 head
$200 Used Forged Rods
$500 Mics core parts – oil pan, oil pick up, Intake and other odds and ends
Machined Parts
$2850 MID kit – Sleeves, Pistons, Wrist pins and Rings
$400 Modify 2.5 to fit 3.0 block
$375 Recondition head (guides, seals and valve job)
$200 Balance Crank/rods/pistons
$150 Magnaflux everything
$200 Grind Cranks if Needed
$125 Remove Head studs (3.0 studs do not work with 2.5 head)
New Parts
$450 New bearings / seals / shaft sleeves / gaskets
$200 ARP / Raceware Head Studs
$200 Water Pump (New, not rebuilt)
$200 Rollers, Tensioners & Belts
Optional New Parts
$600 Oil Pump
$250 Oil Pressure Relief Valve
$50 New Hardware (nuts / bolts in stainless)
Other things you need to make it worth doing
$1200 - $1800 Turbo designed for 3.0 engine
$500 - $900 Clutch / Pressure Plate set
$1000 - $3500 Engine Management System / Mods
$250 - $1500 Exhaust System Mods
Other things –
Intercooler Pipes
Intake Pipes
Fuel Injectors
Fuel Pressure Regulator
Basic tune-up stuff – plugs / wires / distributor
Motor Mounts
Now all you need to add is labor, a little intelligence / experience and $1k or so of tools! – You know that you have to mic everything to make sure the clearances are good. You can’t just ‘wing’ it together (no matter how much you trust your machinist!!)
Now add it up as you see fit to describe your project!
Chris White
(BTW - as I see it the real debate is what is included as an engine build up, so feel free to add up the following list as you see fit)
This is a material only list you the DIY assembler!
Don’t forget to add a day or so of labor for just cleaning parts (or a bunch of $ for a good parts cleaner and bead blast cabinet)
Used Parts
$500 - $1000 Used 3.0 block (can be badly scored)
$800 - $1200 Used 3.0 Crank
$300 Used 2.5 head
$200 Used Forged Rods
$500 Mics core parts – oil pan, oil pick up, Intake and other odds and ends
Machined Parts
$2850 MID kit – Sleeves, Pistons, Wrist pins and Rings
$400 Modify 2.5 to fit 3.0 block
$375 Recondition head (guides, seals and valve job)
$200 Balance Crank/rods/pistons
$150 Magnaflux everything
$200 Grind Cranks if Needed
$125 Remove Head studs (3.0 studs do not work with 2.5 head)
New Parts
$450 New bearings / seals / shaft sleeves / gaskets
$200 ARP / Raceware Head Studs
$200 Water Pump (New, not rebuilt)
$200 Rollers, Tensioners & Belts
Optional New Parts
$600 Oil Pump
$250 Oil Pressure Relief Valve
$50 New Hardware (nuts / bolts in stainless)
Other things you need to make it worth doing
$1200 - $1800 Turbo designed for 3.0 engine
$500 - $900 Clutch / Pressure Plate set
$1000 - $3500 Engine Management System / Mods
$250 - $1500 Exhaust System Mods
Other things –
Intercooler Pipes
Intake Pipes
Fuel Injectors
Fuel Pressure Regulator
Basic tune-up stuff – plugs / wires / distributor
Motor Mounts
Now all you need to add is labor, a little intelligence / experience and $1k or so of tools! – You know that you have to mic everything to make sure the clearances are good. You can’t just ‘wing’ it together (no matter how much you trust your machinist!!)
Now add it up as you see fit to describe your project!
Chris White