3.0 Liter Options
11-02-2005, 09:58 PM
#16
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You might want to check wth Vitesse on the application of the stage III with a 3.0 T. He specifically has stage IV and V ste ups for overbore apps.. Moreover the sotware you're using isn't designed for your future app. specifically.
11-02-2005, 11:33 PM
#17
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Originally Posted by ehall
You might want to check wth Vitesse on the application of the stage III with a 3.0 T. He specifically has stage IV and V ste ups for overbore apps.. Moreover the sotware you're using isn't designed for your future app. specifically.
11-02-2005, 11:39 PM
#18
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Originally Posted by 87_944s
The factory header for the S2 and 968 (would come with the used engine) can be used and bolt right up to your factory 951 exhaust by turning the clock position of the two exit flanges and rewelding......
11-02-2005, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by 87_944s
I guess it's reasonable to say that if you can't turn a wrench or fabricate something as simple as the exhaust mod above yourself that you may be forced to fork out 20K for a turnkey engine.
These people will dissuade you from spending anything less than what they did when in fact the same sorts who *must* pay someone else to do the work for them from lack of mechanical abilities are the first ones lining up to tell you how it must be done.TS
These people will dissuade you from spending anything less than what they did when in fact the same sorts who *must* pay someone else to do the work for them from lack of mechanical abilities are the first ones lining up to tell you how it must be done.TS
I do my own work and its not the work or changing an exhaust flange its the price of parts too.
You will be between 10 and $15k for a 2.8ltr and up. I can fax you the bills to prove it..lol
11-03-2005, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by 87_944s
I guess it's reasonable to say that if you can't turn a wrench or fabricate something as simple as the exhaust mod above yourself that you may be forced to fork out 20K for a turnkey engine.
These people will dissuade you from spending anything less than what they did when in fact the same sorts who *must* pay someone else to do the work for them from lack of mechanical abilities are the first ones lining up to tell you how it must be done.
These people will dissuade you from spending anything less than what they did when in fact the same sorts who *must* pay someone else to do the work for them from lack of mechanical abilities are the first ones lining up to tell you how it must be done.
Of course there are different approaches to building one of these engines, some costing more than others. To accuse the guys that have made the investment for these parts of trying to dissuade someone is almost laughable. You come across as if this is a $5000 project. It's obvious your view is factoring in the cost of just the engine mechanicals, but in the end, it's all of the extras that make things really add up.
For a car in stock condition, I still think the 20k figure is still very accurate and reasonable estimate considering all the typical mechanicals and electricals of a high output 951 are used and the wrenching is done by YOU.
I do ALL of my own work (aside from machining) and to assume that everyone here is at the same mechanical level is way off. So, rather than making assumptions and accusations of trying to dissuade people, I think the input of the guys who've made the purchases for the COMPLETE project are more of an authority than from someone who traded off their "bargain" 3.0L and never completed the build.
Go figure...
11-03-2005, 12:58 AM
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87_944s: I will agree with evil944t. For a 3.0L, I don't think you can do it for $20K. There are so many other things that must be done to accompany this displacement and potential power. And unlike evil944T, I don't do my own work too, ha! As some people know, I have a 3.0L 8V, with alot of bells and whistles, so mine is a pretty penny in overall costs, and I'm still not done yet! I'm waiting anyday now for my Vitesse Racing Wasted Spark, soon.
dlr944: ehall has some very valid points. When you get to that stage, talk to John at Vitesse Racing about his engine management products. That was the best move I've ever did!! And you can use a 2.5L head, it just needs to be mated-up to work with your block. There are countless threads on this, for it's a great debate. I remember back in 2003 when I wanted to work with a tuner I called JME. He said to me, "NO WAY" would he ever mate it up, it doesn't last and work. Well guess what, I had it done and with no problems yet. And their are many people who have it done all the time too. The other debate is whether or not you need the ceramic liners or not. Some people say no, and others say yes. From one perspective, go to http://www.lindseyracing.com/Merchan...de=944CYLHEADS
Good luck with the car. I am in the same boat as you. My car is in pristine shape, yet, I'm building it up and hopefully we can make some decent power.
dlr944: ehall has some very valid points. When you get to that stage, talk to John at Vitesse Racing about his engine management products. That was the best move I've ever did!! And you can use a 2.5L head, it just needs to be mated-up to work with your block. There are countless threads on this, for it's a great debate. I remember back in 2003 when I wanted to work with a tuner I called JME. He said to me, "NO WAY" would he ever mate it up, it doesn't last and work. Well guess what, I had it done and with no problems yet. And their are many people who have it done all the time too. The other debate is whether or not you need the ceramic liners or not. Some people say no, and others say yes. From one perspective, go to http://www.lindseyracing.com/Merchan...de=944CYLHEADS
Good luck with the car. I am in the same boat as you. My car is in pristine shape, yet, I'm building it up and hopefully we can make some decent power.
11-03-2005, 01:02 AM
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Pauerman,
I agree. BUT, even if we were at the same mechanical level, twisting wrenches is free(if its your hobby).
Its the RIGHT parts, not a used block, dishing used pistons, reusing stock rods and cranks etc.. lets see that on the track.. or 200k on the street
Thats the wrong way to approach this type of project. I know nobody that likes pulling motors for fun. lol
I agree. BUT, even if we were at the same mechanical level, twisting wrenches is free(if its your hobby).
Its the RIGHT parts, not a used block, dishing used pistons, reusing stock rods and cranks etc.. lets see that on the track.. or 200k on the street
Thats the wrong way to approach this type of project. I know nobody that likes pulling motors for fun. lol
11-03-2005, 01:42 AM
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BTW If you don't add the following to your list, your nuts
New H2o pump
New oil pump
new rings
new bearings
new belts
new studs
new gaskets
2.7 or 2.5 head. I'd use 2.5, as it would be easier, and cheaper. The ceramics don't matter because you'll be pushing so much more exhaust.
head work
porting to match head to intake and exhaust man. if you go 2.7
New turbo.
new MAF
New software (you won't get even up money for the existing components. New is 3900.00)
larger injectors
the list of under the radar parts goes on and on.
"You won't have to search too far to see that there are several users here making 400, even 500 hp on stock 951 bottom ends...."
Find me a single 3.0 on a stock bottom end. Just one. They don't exist.
You also won't find a 2.7 or 2.8. I can think of a handful of 2.5's, but only one of those is 500 + and it's only on very limited dyno runs. Day to day it pushes 400.
Moreover, if you are going to all of the effort and expense to build a 3.0 8 v turbo, why would you not install carillo or pauter rods. In addition, why in the world would anyone build a 3.0 to make under 500 hp, when you have a 2.5 that can break 400hp with what you have now. 87_944s you clearly haven't done your research on this. Even doing your own labor, I mean ALL of it, you can't put a 3.0 on the street for under 10k with any real expectation of the engine being serviceable.
If you could we all would. I can count all of the succesfully built 3.0's (street cars) on one hand without the thumb. Not one was built for less than 15k. I can't think of a single 2.7 or 2.8 that was built for under 10k.
No one here wants to dissuade anyone. We do want to make sure that a guy who asks for good information is able to get the total picture. This is a VERY extensive project. Very few of these engines are built, even by the big builders. Fewer strill survive without SERIOUS tuning. A 2.5 can handle some mistakes, or inaccuracies in tuning, but a 3.0 cannot. You are pushing SO MUCH more exhaust, and creating so much more heat that knock is a huge issue.
ps. Mine will be built on the 2.5 block with MID sleeves, 3.0 crank, carillo rods and 104mm je pistons. I don't have to worry about mating the block and head, and the cylinders will be even more stable than using the 3.0 block. You might consider this route.
New H2o pump
New oil pump
new rings
new bearings
new belts
new studs
new gaskets
2.7 or 2.5 head. I'd use 2.5, as it would be easier, and cheaper. The ceramics don't matter because you'll be pushing so much more exhaust.
head work
porting to match head to intake and exhaust man. if you go 2.7
New turbo.
new MAF
New software (you won't get even up money for the existing components. New is 3900.00)
larger injectors
the list of under the radar parts goes on and on.
"You won't have to search too far to see that there are several users here making 400, even 500 hp on stock 951 bottom ends...."
Find me a single 3.0 on a stock bottom end. Just one. They don't exist.
You also won't find a 2.7 or 2.8. I can think of a handful of 2.5's, but only one of those is 500 + and it's only on very limited dyno runs. Day to day it pushes 400.
Moreover, if you are going to all of the effort and expense to build a 3.0 8 v turbo, why would you not install carillo or pauter rods. In addition, why in the world would anyone build a 3.0 to make under 500 hp, when you have a 2.5 that can break 400hp with what you have now. 87_944s you clearly haven't done your research on this. Even doing your own labor, I mean ALL of it, you can't put a 3.0 on the street for under 10k with any real expectation of the engine being serviceable.
If you could we all would. I can count all of the succesfully built 3.0's (street cars) on one hand without the thumb. Not one was built for less than 15k. I can't think of a single 2.7 or 2.8 that was built for under 10k.
No one here wants to dissuade anyone. We do want to make sure that a guy who asks for good information is able to get the total picture. This is a VERY extensive project. Very few of these engines are built, even by the big builders. Fewer strill survive without SERIOUS tuning. A 2.5 can handle some mistakes, or inaccuracies in tuning, but a 3.0 cannot. You are pushing SO MUCH more exhaust, and creating so much more heat that knock is a huge issue.
ps. Mine will be built on the 2.5 block with MID sleeves, 3.0 crank, carillo rods and 104mm je pistons. I don't have to worry about mating the block and head, and the cylinders will be even more stable than using the 3.0 block. You might consider this route.
11-03-2005, 12:22 PM
#24
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I’m going to echo everyone else here. A 3.0L is by no means a “cheap or budget build” nor is it really a place for it. I think the arrogance of accusing people of spending too much money because they can not wrench is laughable. Sure you can go down to the junk yard and pick up a block, scoop up a crank from e-bay, machine valuable material off the top of a 968 piston (or better yet use a shorter rod), and find a used 951 head with the ceramic liners falling out of it for next to nothing, slap it together and drive but how long will it really last? Most of us who are building or have built a 3.0L have already done the 2.5 thing and decided we wanted more power and think its best not to skimp. FYI, Lindsey does not have the 104mm pistons despite what their web site says. The only have the over-sized available. The last time I spoke with Andial (a month or two ago) they didn’t have the 104’s either and didn’t have them in sight any time soon so 1st oversized is the only option right now which is going to add an extra $500. I also have budgeted 15K for my 3.0L project, with 8K going into the short block but I got many of the parts at a steal of a price or had them already. I am fortunate that my 2.5L is pretty fresh (10K) with a full Vitesse kit so it sold pretty quickly and for a great price so that’ll off-set my costs a bit. I also am leaving a few of the external mods on the table to give me something to do next summer. Many of these I’ll be fabbing myself (free and unlimited use of a mapping equipment, machine shop, solid works, and a CNC) so I’ll save a bunch there. When you factor in turbos, injectors, chips, clutches, electronics, gaskets, bolts, studs, belts, cooling systems, lifters, exhaust, tax and shipping, you’re going to spend a small fortune there as well. Once you realize that, and recognize that you only want to do it once, it just doesn’t make sense to cut corners.
One area I will not skimp on is the long-block. If I could find a standard sized low compression piston, I would still have the holes freshened up and my block is 99% perfect. After figuring the cost to have my 951 rods properly checked, balanced, bolts installed, and resized, I decided to pick up Pauter rods knowing that it will be pushed hard and they were up to the task. To use a 968 rod would just be irresponsible and while the 951 rod would work fine, it would be a bit frugal considering the rest of the money you just spent on everything else. I’m also getting some crank work done as I want a zero balance and perfect journals. I have the 2.7L head that will be lightly massaged and coated. Sure I could have used my 2.5L head but I liked that I could get some work done on the exhaust side, the 2.7L head bolts right up, and it already has the big valves installed. Not necessarily cheaper, but I’ve seen too many ceramic liners crack and shoddy work to bother with using a 2.5L head. If nothing else, look at the power Special Tool picked up on a 2.5L with a decent head! I also feel comfortable knowing that my short-block will be able to handle the power increases that are sure to come over the next decade as technologies improve in turbos, fuels, and electronics. BTW, with the exception of the crank and block, all of the work will be done by me. Good luck in your build.
One area I will not skimp on is the long-block. If I could find a standard sized low compression piston, I would still have the holes freshened up and my block is 99% perfect. After figuring the cost to have my 951 rods properly checked, balanced, bolts installed, and resized, I decided to pick up Pauter rods knowing that it will be pushed hard and they were up to the task. To use a 968 rod would just be irresponsible and while the 951 rod would work fine, it would be a bit frugal considering the rest of the money you just spent on everything else. I’m also getting some crank work done as I want a zero balance and perfect journals. I have the 2.7L head that will be lightly massaged and coated. Sure I could have used my 2.5L head but I liked that I could get some work done on the exhaust side, the 2.7L head bolts right up, and it already has the big valves installed. Not necessarily cheaper, but I’ve seen too many ceramic liners crack and shoddy work to bother with using a 2.5L head. If nothing else, look at the power Special Tool picked up on a 2.5L with a decent head! I also feel comfortable knowing that my short-block will be able to handle the power increases that are sure to come over the next decade as technologies improve in turbos, fuels, and electronics. BTW, with the exception of the crank and block, all of the work will be done by me. Good luck in your build.
11-03-2005, 02:20 PM
#25
Race Car
Just so I don't get my own son in trouble I logged in under my correct user name *this* time.... 
dlr944- the 951 manifolds will be no problem if you use a 951 head, with the use of a 16V S2 or 968 head (have a three bolt flange at the header to cylinder head flange at each cylinder) you'd have to cut the weld at the lower flange on each header and rotate it's clock position to match that of the 951 manifold or the factory exhaust which obviously would be the same.
evil 944t, Pauerman, ehall, Jeremy Himsel, RolexNJ (
)-
First off, let's clarify what we're talking about exactly....dlr944's opening post seems to ask the question of cost for the "build of a 3.0 liter turbo engine" (maybe he can clarify..?) as in a complete long block engine, ready to install.
If this is the case then I've already made my point, listing reasonable cost estimates for block, crank, pistons, rods, head, gaskets and bearing unless each of you want to list upgraded suspension, brakes, larger rear wheels and tires, etc., etc as necessities to building the engine itself.
Again, I'm not making light of any of the items that each of you has mentioned like, injectors, etc. but it seemed to me that the question was the 3.0 build itself.
There's no point in defending what I've already laid out in my first post if we're on two seperate topics.
Also, by no means am I trying to come off as "arrogant", just realistic.....
My reference to subletting the entire job wasn't meant to be disrespectful to those who are in a position to do so but speaking for myself, I landed an entire 968 engine, complete from pan to cam cover with bell housing in exchange for a transmission overhaul on a VW Cab with no reverse, so, about 10 hrs. of my labor and $100 in parts. Personally, I could have had a ready to bolt in long block, turbo ready for about $2500.
I *know* this is the exception.....but the estimates I posted for the associated parts *ARE* realistic so as far as the arguement pertaining to a complete long block (try buying a long block by any definition- even for your Chevy truck and let me know if it comes with a water pump, exhaust and intake manifolds, new cap and rotor or a clutch) assembly with widely advertised new and used parts as I listed, I don't think the content of my original post to dlr944 is argueable in the context of my perception to the question....
TS-
(968 or S2 based 3.0 low compression engines available for 10K, send 5K in advance and give 4 week lead time as I'll be on Alaskan cruise with the extra $5000.00...... )
dlr944- the 951 manifolds will be no problem if you use a 951 head, with the use of a 16V S2 or 968 head (have a three bolt flange at the header to cylinder head flange at each cylinder) you'd have to cut the weld at the lower flange on each header and rotate it's clock position to match that of the 951 manifold or the factory exhaust which obviously would be the same.
evil 944t, Pauerman, ehall, Jeremy Himsel, RolexNJ (
)-First off, let's clarify what we're talking about exactly....dlr944's opening post seems to ask the question of cost for the "build of a 3.0 liter turbo engine" (maybe he can clarify..?) as in a complete long block engine, ready to install.
If this is the case then I've already made my point, listing reasonable cost estimates for block, crank, pistons, rods, head, gaskets and bearing unless each of you want to list upgraded suspension, brakes, larger rear wheels and tires, etc., etc as necessities to building the engine itself.
Again, I'm not making light of any of the items that each of you has mentioned like, injectors, etc. but it seemed to me that the question was the 3.0 build itself.
There's no point in defending what I've already laid out in my first post if we're on two seperate topics.
Also, by no means am I trying to come off as "arrogant", just realistic.....
My reference to subletting the entire job wasn't meant to be disrespectful to those who are in a position to do so but speaking for myself, I landed an entire 968 engine, complete from pan to cam cover with bell housing in exchange for a transmission overhaul on a VW Cab with no reverse, so, about 10 hrs. of my labor and $100 in parts. Personally, I could have had a ready to bolt in long block, turbo ready for about $2500.
I *know* this is the exception.....but the estimates I posted for the associated parts *ARE* realistic so as far as the arguement pertaining to a complete long block (try buying a long block by any definition- even for your Chevy truck and let me know if it comes with a water pump, exhaust and intake manifolds, new cap and rotor or a clutch) assembly with widely advertised new and used parts as I listed, I don't think the content of my original post to dlr944 is argueable in the context of my perception to the question....
TS-
(968 or S2 based 3.0 low compression engines available for 10K, send 5K in advance and give 4 week lead time as I'll be on Alaskan cruise with the extra $5000.00......
)
11-03-2005, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by 87_944s
I guess it's reasonable to say that if you can't turn a wrench or fabricate something as simple as the exhaust mod above yourself that you may be forced to fork out 20K for a turnkey engine.
These people will dissuade you from spending anything less than what they did when in fact the same sorts who *must* pay someone else to do the work for them from lack of mechanical abilities are the first ones lining up to tell you how it must be done.TS
These people will dissuade you from spending anything less than what they did when in fact the same sorts who *must* pay someone else to do the work for them from lack of mechanical abilities are the first ones lining up to tell you how it must be done.TS
If you want a long block built right, then you will be around $8-10k. If you want a turn key project, you'll be well on your way towards $20k
Whats the sense of giving the costs of a cheap or expensive longblock to only realize, your gonna need more than that. That is why I suggested the things I suggested.
11-03-2005, 02:44 PM
#27
Nordschleife Master
Buy Turbo/Wategate/Intercooler/Bov/Larger injectors/Tune/Put turbo anywhere but under intake manifold...
Make Metal Headgasket to reduce compression/Headstuds...
However, this is impossible and the rods will not take it and the pistons will fry and your mom will catch on fire...
Make Metal Headgasket to reduce compression/Headstuds...
However, this is impossible and the rods will not take it and the pistons will fry and your mom will catch on fire...
11-03-2005, 02:53 PM
#28
Race Car
Jeremy- well, here you are at least addressing the more specific point of the engine assembly itself, what I thought the topic originally was.....
Here again...what difference would it make if you bought a used block and went to first oversized pistons or a used crankshaft that needed a .25-.50 millimeter oversize bearing set when *BOTH* of these procedures are factory authorized and can be accomplished with the used of Porsche parts...?
How is this "scrimping" on bottom end parts.?
The pistons I used in my example are brand new and are available from Arias in ANY dimension as an alternative but even considering being forced to use the 1+ oversize (same price) from Lindsey, that'd account for an additional $500 machine work (your own figure) to have a "like new" block and piston set with rings, pins and clips.
Personally, I have the correct Sunnen hone with felt pads to hone my own block and the capacity to have the block bored for free but that's besides the point.
What exactly would be the negative attributes of a crankshaft that was machined .25mm in your opinion when crankshafts are welded on and remachined as normally accepted practice daily when properly done...?
Lastly, I don't consider the use of the factory forged rods as "scrimping" either but that's a matter of opinion....
TS (please don't misinterpret my conciseness as arrogance)
Here again...what difference would it make if you bought a used block and went to first oversized pistons or a used crankshaft that needed a .25-.50 millimeter oversize bearing set when *BOTH* of these procedures are factory authorized and can be accomplished with the used of Porsche parts...?
How is this "scrimping" on bottom end parts.?
The pistons I used in my example are brand new and are available from Arias in ANY dimension as an alternative but even considering being forced to use the 1+ oversize (same price) from Lindsey, that'd account for an additional $500 machine work (your own figure) to have a "like new" block and piston set with rings, pins and clips.
Personally, I have the correct Sunnen hone with felt pads to hone my own block and the capacity to have the block bored for free but that's besides the point.
What exactly would be the negative attributes of a crankshaft that was machined .25mm in your opinion when crankshafts are welded on and remachined as normally accepted practice daily when properly done...?
Lastly, I don't consider the use of the factory forged rods as "scrimping" either but that's a matter of opinion....
TS (please don't misinterpret my conciseness as arrogance)
11-03-2005, 02:57 PM
#29
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The point is evil, that even before dlr944 reposted with what parts he *did* have already upgraded there were posts throwing out 20K for an engine build.
TS
TS
11-03-2005, 03:12 PM
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I didn't include any suspension, brakes etc. pure engine. 968 T pistons are 1500.00 minimum IF you can find them. If not you'll have to source an alternative, which will probably mean sleeving the block. Cha ching there's 3500.00 out the door. You don't have to get much head work done, but you do have to have the 2.5 welded, or have the 2.7 machined to fit the exhaust manifold. If you do that, why wou;dn't you refresh spring, retainers, valve cut etc. 800.00 if it's a dime. BTW Rolex was forced to go to solid lifters becuase the hydraulic lifters weren't up to the job. That's extra. Your turbo won't suffice, so you'll need to sell it, then upgrade. Let's be generous and say someone gives you 1k for it in used condition. You need new chips, and may need a larger maf. We'll stay with chips. that's 450.00 plus. (I feel certain you'll need additional maf capacity) So you may as well sell the Stage III. You won't get 3600.00 for it after a year. A guy was having trouble getting 3k for his after two hours. Seriously so I'll value the stage III to be sold at a generous 2k. That leaves you 1900.00 to make up for the Stage V. (Motec is just as expensive if not more) (we're at 4200.00 cost generously) You can't use the 968 rods, or atleast you shouldn't as they are cast. You either need well used 951 rods, or aftermarket. I'll split the difference at 500.00. You need a new water pump and a new oil pump. 600.00. You need bearings, seals, gaskets, rod bolts, head studs and misc. bolts and fasteners 600.00 easy. You need rings. 350.00 ish. You'll need a 3" down pipe 350.00 (yes you need it. The backpressure will be a serious limiting factor, ask Rolex.) You'll need to replace miscellaeneous hoses, as well as wiring harness parts that are no longer serviceable. 250.00. You need a timing belt + new rollers, as well as dizzy cap and plug wires. 200.00+ (why wouldn't you use new parts on a highly volatile project?) In addition to your smt6, you will be in serious need of a wideband 02 kit. Your margins on this motor will be very narrow. 350.00. How much do you think is a good number for shipping costs? Total? 300.00 plus? easy. This is all just off the top of my head, as my actual project list is on my home PC. Having the 968 engine gives you a good core. That's a good start. I didn't include ANY labor for anything but head work. If you farm out the short block, you are instantly at 3500.00. If you farm the removal and replace/tune add atleast 1200.00 and more like 2k. Seriously, you need to sit down and account for EVERYTHING. The big stuff is semi quantifiable. It's the little crap that adds up so fast you won't even believe it. I was seriously conservative in the numbers up there. A year old Vitesse stage III comes with out vendor tech support, and it will be X months old. The value will be reduced significantly in our community. Also, the LR exhaust thing is meaningless in your app. You'll be pushing so much exhaust beyond it's original design that their work there is moot.
Finally, I don't think any of us thought you were coming of arrogantly. The other guy seemed very much to be. You asked good questions, and we answered. Based on who I've seen repond to this thread, we are all in the process of doing this, or have already done it. I'm the biggest cheap *** on the planet, and will do as much of my own work as possible, but I still can't get this budget under 11736.00 without shipping costs, and 500.00 budgeted for extra crap that comes up. I've been tweaking this for two years. If there is a way to do it cheaper, I'll find it, but haven't yet. I'm getting very tempted to toss out the plan and build the nastiest 2.5 on the planet, for less money, and 400hp. You could hit that with about 3k more on mods on your 2.5. I'm envious!
Finally, I don't think any of us thought you were coming of arrogantly. The other guy seemed very much to be. You asked good questions, and we answered. Based on who I've seen repond to this thread, we are all in the process of doing this, or have already done it. I'm the biggest cheap *** on the planet, and will do as much of my own work as possible, but I still can't get this budget under 11736.00 without shipping costs, and 500.00 budgeted for extra crap that comes up. I've been tweaking this for two years. If there is a way to do it cheaper, I'll find it, but haven't yet. I'm getting very tempted to toss out the plan and build the nastiest 2.5 on the planet, for less money, and 400hp. You could hit that with about 3k more on mods on your 2.5. I'm envious!