Toulene in the gas tank?
10-29-2005, 03:40 AM
#31
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I couldn't find toulene, so I picked up a liter of xylene and put it in with 3/4 tank of gas. I was kinda wary. So I guess the my next question would be: how much xylene should I put in with a full tank of gas?
I have Vitesse chips set for 16 psi. How much boost can I run using xylene "rocket fuel" without changing the fuel settings, etc. Basically, if I use the stuff, can I run 18psi without the air/fuel ratio or timing being messed up? Or am I playing with fire w/o a wideband?
I'm a total novice in all of this, but I would like to experiment a little.
Thanks,
Josh
I have Vitesse chips set for 16 psi. How much boost can I run using xylene "rocket fuel" without changing the fuel settings, etc. Basically, if I use the stuff, can I run 18psi without the air/fuel ratio or timing being messed up? Or am I playing with fire w/o a wideband?
I'm a total novice in all of this, but I would like to experiment a little.
Thanks,
Josh
10-29-2005, 03:59 AM
#32
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First one gallon is nothing. You're tank holds 20 gallons.(21.8 i believe) That's 1/15th of a tank.
Second. You REALLY need to read the link provided by 7 up, in this thread.
here's a brief exerpt:
"Toulene
R+M/2...114
Cost...$2.50/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...94.2 Octane
20%...96.4 Octane
30%...98.6 Octane
Notes: Common ingredient in Octane Boosters in a can. 12-16 ounces will only raise octane 2-3 *points*, I.e. from 92 to 92.3. Often costs $3-5 for 12-16 ounces, when it can be purchased for less than $3/gal at chemical supply houses or paint stores. "
Third Go to Racerx.com and search there for a good write up. 7 ups may be similar.
When special toool runs that crazy boost, he's using 40% of the total fuel in the tank. That's a lot more than what you have in there.
BTW do you have stock rubber fuel lines? Some guys above made pretty good warnings about xylene and rubber fuels lines. They're a known weak spot.
Lastly yes, if you want to pump up the boost, you really ought to get WBO2 set up. But without, I would contact Vitesse and get the straight answer. He will definitely give you a more conservative answer than we might, but he knows what he's doing.
For the price, you might try finding a station running 100 octane. In your area there must be a few. I have two in Jacksonville, and we are nowhere. Running a true 100 is a lot easier on piece of mind IMHO. (not that I won't pour three or four gallons of xylene in with 100 one of these days
)
Either way, have fun driving it this weekend. I will!
Second. You REALLY need to read the link provided by 7 up, in this thread.
here's a brief exerpt:
"Toulene
R+M/2...114
Cost...$2.50/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...94.2 Octane
20%...96.4 Octane
30%...98.6 Octane
Notes: Common ingredient in Octane Boosters in a can. 12-16 ounces will only raise octane 2-3 *points*, I.e. from 92 to 92.3. Often costs $3-5 for 12-16 ounces, when it can be purchased for less than $3/gal at chemical supply houses or paint stores. "
Third Go to Racerx.com and search there for a good write up. 7 ups may be similar.
When special toool runs that crazy boost, he's using 40% of the total fuel in the tank. That's a lot more than what you have in there.
BTW do you have stock rubber fuel lines? Some guys above made pretty good warnings about xylene and rubber fuels lines. They're a known weak spot.
Lastly yes, if you want to pump up the boost, you really ought to get WBO2 set up. But without, I would contact Vitesse and get the straight answer. He will definitely give you a more conservative answer than we might, but he knows what he's doing.
For the price, you might try finding a station running 100 octane. In your area there must be a few. I have two in Jacksonville, and we are nowhere. Running a true 100 is a lot easier on piece of mind IMHO. (not that I won't pour three or four gallons of xylene in with 100 one of these days
)Either way, have fun driving it this weekend. I will!
10-29-2005, 04:45 AM
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They are basically the same thing.(They have a few chemo nerd differences ) They are both used in the paint industry as solvents, and they clean the hell out of metal, so yes they are close enough. It's the "lene" part on the end that defines their larger make up. Somewhere up above ST describes the basic differences. I figure if he won't stand close to it, that's all I need to know. I didn't know about the damage to fuel line thing until this thread, but the stock fuel lines, without rocket fuel, are a well known problem. They are prone to failure. I believe there was a recall by Porsche on the stock fuel lines. Do a search. Someone actually posted the recall two or three weeks ago. As for upgrades, check Lindsey, Speed Force Racing (they are a sponsor) Paragon (also sponsors). They shouldn't be horribly expensive. There have been many engine fires due to a line failure in that area. I upgraded mine right away.
http://www.lindseyracing.com/Merchan...=944FUELLLINES
) They are both used in the paint industry as solvents, and they clean the hell out of metal, so yes they are close enough. It's the "lene" part on the end that defines their larger make up. Somewhere up above ST describes the basic differences. I figure if he won't stand close to it, that's all I need to know. I didn't know about the damage to fuel line thing until this thread, but the stock fuel lines, without rocket fuel, are a well known problem. They are prone to failure. I believe there was a recall by Porsche on the stock fuel lines. Do a search. Someone actually posted the recall two or three weeks ago. As for upgrades, check Lindsey, Speed Force Racing (they are a sponsor) Paragon (also sponsors). They shouldn't be horribly expensive. There have been many engine fires due to a line failure in that area. I upgraded mine right away.http://www.lindseyracing.com/Merchan...=944FUELLLINES
10-29-2005, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by RolexNJ
I own a very big chain of home decorating/paint stores here in NJ. I'm very fortunate, for I have a lifetime of "unlimited" supply of xylene! But to date, I've never seen in 18 years a "T" marked on any can ever. And NJ has undergone some of the strictest VOC (volatile organic compound) regulations; so many companies already have reformulated these solvent type products. This "T" thing may be a CA thing, but I'm not sure. Also, I read somewhere on Rennlist that the most one should use is 10% per tank of gas. I do recall too that it can have an affect on the stock lines too. I would ask Special Tool more about this, for he usues this stuff like it's water!! And I know this for a fact too, for he has over 100 gallons of this rocket fuel on hand, ready for his car and mine.
10-29-2005, 12:55 PM
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I purchased a 55 gallon drum from a chemical company that sells me other things. I think I paid 450.00 for the drum. It was chrystal clear would evaporate in seconds and left no smell afterwards. It has been said that it causes cancer but what doesn't these days.
It is not like messing with nitro glycerine. Use the formula mentioned above and anyone should be fine.
It is not like messing with nitro glycerine. Use the formula mentioned above and anyone should be fine.
10-29-2005, 07:34 PM
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As a chemist this thread disgusts me. So here goes.
Toluene is indeed a hydrocarbon, as is Xylene, both are close reltives of Benzene. The "aromatic" designation simply means that benzene is the basis of the molecules chemical structure. Benzene then, is a six member carbon ring that is planar and in the shape of a hexagon with three double bonds (which are delocalized, but thats a whole discussion we don't need to have). Toluene simply takes this ring and adds a single CH3, or methyl group, to one position. Xylene has two methly groups substituted on that ring, Xylene thus comes in three flavors, orth-Xylene, meta-Xylene, and para-Xylene depending on where the two methyl groups are placed in relation to each other (across from, next to each other, or spaced one apart). When refering to Xylene your generally refering to a mixture of all three isomers.
All three compounds have similar densities, so from a kinetics standpoint Xylene should give the most energy during a fully optimized burn (i.e only water and Carbon Dioxide as products) due to having more breakable bonds and a more branched structure (which leads to higher octane ratings). The only downside to burning these as a substitute or addative to gasoline is that all three are very strong organic solvents and will damage just about any plastic or rubber aside from Teflon. This class of molecules is also HIGHLY carcinogenic. The flat structure allows it to slip between the bonds in your DNA and do damage very easily. Despite an earlier claim, gasoline IS NOT mostly aromatic hydrocarbons. Last I read the limit was something like 20% in most states.
If your serious about adding aromatics to your gasoline, and in large quantities I'd suggest you hop on over to www.fischersci.com and order some reagent grade chemicals. Purity is in the 98%+ range as opposed to the stuff you'd find at a homestore which is typically only 70% or so. Yes, it is more expensive, but at least you know what your burning, and you can order in 20L quantities.
If your really serious about increasing octane you may want to look into alcohols and ethers, specifically Methanol, Ethanol, Methyl Tert-Butyl Ether(MTBE), di-ethyl ether, etc... They're typically cheaper and have octane rating of around 115 or more. On the downside they mess with oxygen sensors and are less energy dense. Oxygenated fuels can typically be added into the 15-20% volume range without messing things up too badly. If your having knock issues MTBE is a great substitue for a lead adative.
If you'd like to do some more reading here's a great link.
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/
Toluene is indeed a hydrocarbon, as is Xylene, both are close reltives of Benzene. The "aromatic" designation simply means that benzene is the basis of the molecules chemical structure. Benzene then, is a six member carbon ring that is planar and in the shape of a hexagon with three double bonds (which are delocalized, but thats a whole discussion we don't need to have). Toluene simply takes this ring and adds a single CH3, or methyl group, to one position. Xylene has two methly groups substituted on that ring, Xylene thus comes in three flavors, orth-Xylene, meta-Xylene, and para-Xylene depending on where the two methyl groups are placed in relation to each other (across from, next to each other, or spaced one apart). When refering to Xylene your generally refering to a mixture of all three isomers.
All three compounds have similar densities, so from a kinetics standpoint Xylene should give the most energy during a fully optimized burn (i.e only water and Carbon Dioxide as products) due to having more breakable bonds and a more branched structure (which leads to higher octane ratings). The only downside to burning these as a substitute or addative to gasoline is that all three are very strong organic solvents and will damage just about any plastic or rubber aside from Teflon. This class of molecules is also HIGHLY carcinogenic. The flat structure allows it to slip between the bonds in your DNA and do damage very easily. Despite an earlier claim, gasoline IS NOT mostly aromatic hydrocarbons. Last I read the limit was something like 20% in most states.
If your serious about adding aromatics to your gasoline, and in large quantities I'd suggest you hop on over to www.fischersci.com and order some reagent grade chemicals. Purity is in the 98%+ range as opposed to the stuff you'd find at a homestore which is typically only 70% or so. Yes, it is more expensive, but at least you know what your burning, and you can order in 20L quantities.
If your really serious about increasing octane you may want to look into alcohols and ethers, specifically Methanol, Ethanol, Methyl Tert-Butyl Ether(MTBE), di-ethyl ether, etc... They're typically cheaper and have octane rating of around 115 or more. On the downside they mess with oxygen sensors and are less energy dense. Oxygenated fuels can typically be added into the 15-20% volume range without messing things up too badly. If your having knock issues MTBE is a great substitue for a lead adative.
If you'd like to do some more reading here's a great link.
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/
10-29-2005, 07:41 PM
#38
Thank you sir, but as you mentioned in your last paragraph, we have found the most PRACTICAL route to high power.
When we try to make big power, we must consider ALL facets of the equation, not just the chemical department.
It is elementary knowledge that lead and alcohols will help, but the sensors that keep tabs on modern management don't like it.
When we try to make big power, we must consider ALL facets of the equation, not just the chemical department.
It is elementary knowledge that lead and alcohols will help, but the sensors that keep tabs on modern management don't like it.
10-29-2005, 07:51 PM
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No problem. I don't mean to come off as a jerk, it just bothers me that chemical differances are being discussed without proper knowledge of whats being talked about. I'm kind of a geek like that. I can understand where practicalities come into play, practicalities afterall are why I'm driving a 944 and not an F16.
10-30-2005, 01:27 AM
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toluene is heavily regulated because it is the active ingredient that "bagheads" get high from when sniffing various sovents. I wonder, since there is a chemist on this thread, is acetone usable? It is fairly cheap. and available.
10-30-2005, 06:37 PM
#41
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Actually, there's no problems with alcohol, in regards to engine management
In closed loop, the oxygen sensor simply brings it to stoichiometric; in open loop you tune for proper lambda values. In this fashion, you actually have slightly more power than using aromatics.
In closed loop, the oxygen sensor simply brings it to stoichiometric; in open loop you tune for proper lambda values. In this fashion, you actually have slightly more power than using aromatics.
10-30-2005, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by TurboTommy
Actually, there's no problems with alcohol, in regards to engine management
In closed loop, the oxygen sensor simply brings it to stoichiometric; in open loop you tune for proper lambda values. In this fashion, you actually have slightly more power than using aromatics.
In closed loop, the oxygen sensor simply brings it to stoichiometric; in open loop you tune for proper lambda values. In this fashion, you actually have slightly more power than using aromatics.
10-30-2005, 07:35 PM
#43
Gentlemen - again, I must point you to the light of PRACTCALITY.
-Alcohols are very hydroscopic - so for a street/roadrace 951 not practical because of the time that the fuel may be in the tank
-Alcohol makes peak power about 30% RICHER than stoich - which is ALREADY AROUND 6.45:1!!!!
There is nothing more practical with as much power potential as xylene.
Nothing is even close.
No googling involved in this post - strictly experience.
-Alcohols are very hydroscopic - so for a street/roadrace 951 not practical because of the time that the fuel may be in the tank
-Alcohol makes peak power about 30% RICHER than stoich - which is ALREADY AROUND 6.45:1!!!!
There is nothing more practical with as much power potential as xylene.
Nothing is even close.
No googling involved in this post - strictly experience.
10-30-2005, 09:50 PM
#44
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I don't know what's so practical about not being able to drive further than a half a tanks worth of fuel from your xylene supply, or having to haul a whole bunch of it around with you (especially if your **** about your vehicle's weight; which I would be too)
Ethanol is not that hydroscopic; you can leave it mixed in your gas tank no problem.
"Alcohol makes peak power at 30% richer than stoich, which is already around 6.45:1".
Yes, and ethanol stoich is 9:1;
and the problem is what, exactly?
"There's nothing more practical with as much power potential as xylene. Nothing is even close."
OMG!!! If you tune for an alcohol blend you can definitely make more power than with xylene!
Ethanol is not that hydroscopic; you can leave it mixed in your gas tank no problem.
"Alcohol makes peak power at 30% richer than stoich, which is already around 6.45:1".
Yes, and ethanol stoich is 9:1;
and the problem is what, exactly?
"There's nothing more practical with as much power potential as xylene. Nothing is even close."
OMG!!! If you tune for an alcohol blend you can definitely make more power than with xylene!