Wolf 3D EMS
02-19-2007, 02:39 PM
#46
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Originally Posted by Chris White
To make it effective you would have to (as pointed out earlier) run a 'soft' wastegate spring – if you don’t the low limit will be based on the wastegate spring. The typical Tial gate comes with a .8 or 1.0 spring – so that is the low limit of boost.
I will agree that it would be ‘nice’ to have a wide range of boost control but I have found that if I retard the timing by over 10 degrees at the onset of knock the driver will get the point that something is wrong and back off.
The Porsche engineers design a system to be used by the general public – meaning people that were completely clueless. I feel that anybody that is running a highly modified (any stand alone system qualifies) system has to be cognizant of the signs of improper operation. The very act of optimal tuning means the safety margins have been minimized and there is very little room for “issues”.
I will agree that it would be ‘nice’ to have a wide range of boost control but I have found that if I retard the timing by over 10 degrees at the onset of knock the driver will get the point that something is wrong and back off.
The Porsche engineers design a system to be used by the general public – meaning people that were completely clueless. I feel that anybody that is running a highly modified (any stand alone system qualifies) system has to be cognizant of the signs of improper operation. The very act of optimal tuning means the safety margins have been minimized and there is very little room for “issues”.
i can see your argument regarding 'you mod your car, you deserve less failsafe' but it would still be nice to have that protection there. if it's so easy to do, why not just put it in ?
02-19-2007, 03:07 PM
#47
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it's not an argument as much as it is a fact, when you raise boost, change maps, etc. you push the limits. stock they had loads to go on. when you push the limits you can not go back to safe as easy
what is saying is with a 0.8 or 1.0 BAR spring it will not go under that boost.
when WG line fails boost usually goings up and stuff goes boom, been there done that, tried it
what is saying is with a 0.8 or 1.0 BAR spring it will not go under that boost.
when WG line fails boost usually goings up and stuff goes boom, been there done that, tried it
02-20-2007, 01:36 AM
#48
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Originally Posted by anders44
it's not an argument as much as it is a fact, when you raise boost, change maps, etc. you push the limits. stock they had loads to go on. when you push the limits you can not go back to safe as easy
what is saying is with a 0.8 or 1.0 BAR spring it will not go under that boost.
when WG line fails boost usually goings up and stuff goes boom, been there done that, tried it
what is saying is with a 0.8 or 1.0 BAR spring it will not go under that boost.
when WG line fails boost usually goings up and stuff goes boom, been there done that, tried it
also, the argument that the stock wastegate spring is 'soft' and provides automatic failsafe doesn't hold water. try clamping the wg control line on a stock car and you'll still overboost to +30psi. the stock boost-pull knock protection has nothing to do with the spring pressure. you can have a stock car that goes into 1.2bar cripple mode when ignition retard fails to stop knock. that same car will overboost to +30psi with the wg line clamped.
02-20-2007, 02:07 AM
#49
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Originally Posted by nize
that is true for the stock configuration as well.
also, the argument that the stock wastegate spring is 'soft' and provides automatic failsafe doesn't hold water. try clamping the wg control line on a stock car and you'll still overboost to +30psi. the stock boost-pull knock protection has nothing to do with the spring pressure. you can have a stock car that goes into 1.2bar cripple mode when ignition retard fails to stop knock. that same car will overboost to +30psi with the wg line clamped.
also, the argument that the stock wastegate spring is 'soft' and provides automatic failsafe doesn't hold water. try clamping the wg control line on a stock car and you'll still overboost to +30psi. the stock boost-pull knock protection has nothing to do with the spring pressure. you can have a stock car that goes into 1.2bar cripple mode when ignition retard fails to stop knock. that same car will overboost to +30psi with the wg line clamped.
Actually when you clamp the hose you are adding more resistance against the diaphragm. A better test of the spring would be to disconnect the wastegate line and seal off where it is coming from, leaving the diaphragm vented to atmosphere, then truly on the force of the spring is holding the gate shut.
02-20-2007, 02:31 AM
#50
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Originally Posted by rberry951
Actually when you clamp the hose you are adding more resistance against the diaphragm. A better test of the spring would be to disconnect the wastegate line and seal off where it is coming from, leaving the diaphragm vented to atmosphere, then truly on the force of the spring is holding the gate shut.
02-20-2007, 02:55 AM
#51
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Originally Posted by nize
you have a good point, and this has been done before. it will still boost at least past 2bar, not providing failsafe.
I think too much...
02-20-2007, 03:52 AM
#52
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by nize
that is partially true. the stock KLR/cycle valve works with the knock sensor to force the wastegate open. if it were as easy to do as you claim, why haven't other EMS setups already done this ?
02-20-2007, 12:29 PM
#54
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by pozican
Question of ignorance...
How do you tell which spring is right for which boost level?
How do you tell which spring is right for which boost level?
On another note, I did some more research about the Wolf3d. I really didn't realize that it now has many advanced features. This sounds like a pretty nice setup, especially with the J&S Safeguard system as sold by LR.
02-20-2007, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Porschefile
Because running a weak WG spring like .2 bar is incredibly inefficient and not the "right" way to go about doing things. You always want to run the stiffest WG spring possible (for the lowest boost level you plan to run of course) as running a very weak one can result in the WG opening early (even just barely cracking open) which will result in more lag. Ever wonder why the 951 is so laggy in stock form?
you could run a weak wg spring and use a dual-port control setup to keep the wg shut.
the question wasn't regarding using a weaker wg spring. the question was;
if it's so easy to provide stage2 boost-pull knock protection like the stock klr+cycle valve, why don't other EMS setups provide this? in fact, the only one i know that currently provides this is wolf3d, and one of the reasons i chose to go with them.
03-19-2007, 11:51 AM
#58
Nordschleife Master
Without reading the specs again (long time ago..) it miiight be that it's clever enough to determine what cylinder that caused knock based on ignition pulses.
03-19-2007, 02:48 PM
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yes.
and it retards timing up to umm, 48 degrees i think (user-selectable).
an LED light goes on in the gauge that shows how many degrees ignition is being retarded due to knock for up to 10 degrees so you know what's going on in realtime.
best of all, if knock is still present, it pulls boost just like the factory stock cripple mode.
and it retards timing up to umm, 48 degrees i think (user-selectable).
an LED light goes on in the gauge that shows how many degrees ignition is being retarded due to knock for up to 10 degrees so you know what's going on in realtime.
best of all, if knock is still present, it pulls boost just like the factory stock cripple mode.
03-19-2007, 03:13 PM
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One of the things I dont like about the Wolf 3D is that tuning is done with rpm vs. load instead of rpm vs.boost. This makes tuning much more time consuinmg and you have to have a datalogger or you will just be spinning your wheels(in your head and not your actual wheels).Another downfall with Wolf 3D is that if you want to run external coil packs you have to wire in ignitors for each coil pack which is extra work and sometimes a little R&D. The Wolf software in incredible though and I think the software makes up for some of the other idiosyncrasies.I am still a TEC3 kind of guy since it has it all in one package and it is a tried and true and there is alot of support for it: SFR, Chris White, Scott Gomes, etc....to name a few. And between these three companies, I would say there is at least 100 units out there on cars running well.