Best mod yet! S2 ring and pinion
10-20-2005, 01:20 PM
#61
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 906
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One other quick note, of dubious importance here. Although it has been correctly stated that the 944S tranny is not up to the task of standing up to a Turbo's torque, that box is a VERY good track/autox upgrade for an NA 944 8V because is that his the 3.89 R/P with the first four ratios from the 86 Turbo box. NA drivers get the same perky rear gear but don't hit the rev limiter as often!
10-20-2005, 02:34 PM
#62
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by TheRealLefty
One other quick note, of dubious importance here. Although it has been correctly stated that the 944S tranny is not up to the task of standing up to a Turbo's torque, that box is a VERY good track/autox upgrade for an NA 944 8V because is that his the 3.89 R/P with the first four ratios from the 86 Turbo box. NA drivers get the same perky rear gear but don't hit the rev limiter as often!
Interesting. I would give the opposite advice (aside from the strength issue). Having owned and raced a 944S for 13 years, I always felt the gearing was a little too tall and would have preferred to have the 944 n/a gear ratios. Racing against 944 n/a's, I did not have any advantage with higher horsepower coming out of the hole, because they had the slightly lower gearing. I would think putting the taller gearing in an n/a would be detrimental to acceleration and performance.
10-20-2005, 02:44 PM
#63
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 906
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting, indeed! My 85.5 NA runs with 225/45/15 Hoosier and 15/8 Fuchs all around. This reduced tire diameter puts me at something like 4.05 or so, effective final drive, I think. I do love first and second gear up through the power band, but I seem to be frequently stuck on the rev limiter with 150 feet to go to the skid pad turn at the Cumberland Airport where I do most of my autocrossing and similiar banging the limiter in third in the Chute at Summit Point.
That said, interesting to hear about the difference from the other side of the 8V/16V fence. My perception of early S model 944's is that their torque peak seems later than the 3500 RPM sweet zone for 8V cars.
That said, interesting to hear about the difference from the other side of the 8V/16V fence. My perception of early S model 944's is that their torque peak seems later than the 3500 RPM sweet zone for 8V cars.
10-20-2005, 07:10 PM
#65
Three Wheelin'
With stock tire size, an S2 tranny should give you 154 mph at 6450 rpm and turn about 2900 rpm at 70 mph.
An s2 tranny with 951 5th gear installed should give you 145 mph at 6450 rpm and about 3100 rpm at 70 mph.
A stock 951 tranny will give you 166 mph at 6450 rpm and will turn about 2700 rpm at 70 mph.
An s2 tranny with 951 5th gear installed should give you 145 mph at 6450 rpm and about 3100 rpm at 70 mph.
A stock 951 tranny will give you 166 mph at 6450 rpm and will turn about 2700 rpm at 70 mph.
10-20-2005, 11:30 PM
#66
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by TheRealLefty
Interesting, indeed! My 85.5 NA runs with 225/45/15 Hoosier and 15/8 Fuchs all around. This reduced tire diameter puts me at something like 4.05 or so, effective final drive, I think. I do love first and second gear up through the power band, but I seem to be frequently stuck on the rev limiter with 150 feet to go to the skid pad turn at the Cumberland Airport where I do most of my autocrossing and similiar banging the limiter in third in the Chute at Summit Point.
That said, interesting to hear about the difference from the other side of the 8V/16V fence. My perception of early S model 944's is that their torque peak seems later than the 3500 RPM sweet zone for 8V cars.
That said, interesting to hear about the difference from the other side of the 8V/16V fence. My perception of early S model 944's is that their torque peak seems later than the 3500 RPM sweet zone for 8V cars.
If youre running out of rpms at certain points on the autocross course or track, you could also put stock diameter 245/45/16s on the car instead of changing the transmission (?).
There is always the trade off for shorter gearing - running out of rpms or having to add up shifts and down shifts on certain sections of track. Sometimes the gain in acceleration is lost by adding time shifting and increasing the braking zones. It will be car, track, and driver dependent - so there is no one answer that is always correct. I just always felt that on the tracks that I was driving, the S would have benefitted from shorter gearing, especially Road America.
10-23-2005, 06:39 PM
#67
This weekend I have swapped the 951 tranny for a S2 LSD tranny. It definitely is a hugh improvement!!! Engine picks up much better.
Due the the LSD the "out-of-the-corner" speed has improved dramatically. LSD is a MUST HAVE for track drivers.
Due the the LSD the "out-of-the-corner" speed has improved dramatically. LSD is a MUST HAVE for track drivers.
10-24-2005, 04:31 AM
#69
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,953
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, here's my take- 1st, shorter gears (higher numerically) mean faster acceleration, no matter what speed- shorter gears accelerate >100mph faster than taller gears & also accelerate faster <100mph as well...
SPECIAL Tool- you said you have an S2 tranny w/out 951 5th. So, you have ALL the S2 gears plus S2 final drive/R&P?
Danno's Racer X site has a great list of 944 gears: http://www.951motorsports.com/
ALL 951 & S2 gears are the same except 5th & final drive...
951 FD = 3.375
S2 FD = 3.875
C&D tested Turbo S ('88) had 3.875 FD- ran 13.9 sec 1/4 mile (.3 faster than any 951 ever tested)- redlined 5th ~145mph - normal 951 redlines ~167mph.
S2 FD (3.875) + 951 5th (.83) = ~146mph in 5th
S2 FD (3.875) + S2 5th (.778) = ~156mph in 5th
951 FD (3.38) + S2 5th (.778) = ~180mph in 5th (what I want)
951 FD (3.38) + NA 5th (.72) = ~193mph in 5th- hole b/t 4th & 5th
Changing the whole tranny brings ALL the gears together, proportionately, as opposed to switching single gears & helps acceleration every where. C&D's 951S did 0-60 in same 5.5, only b/c it shifted into 3rd right beforehand, but by end of 1/4, was ahead by 3/10. At 120mph, it probably didn't help much either (22.1 sec) b/c of early shift (normal 951 wouldn't shift until ~125) but still, the shorter FD car would keep moving ahead until it redlines at ~145...
I talked to Powerhaus II a few times & received varying responses. 1st is damn-near impossible to switch out. 968 6-sp would be the way- not sure why speedo is tough to hook up though- that never made sense to me- why can't someone just stick a 968 ABS sensor & speedo in a 951??? The gearing's the weird thing- they crammed the top 3 gears on too closely. 968 w/custom gears 3-6 would be the deal, but PRICEY!!!
Anyway, if you're seriously considering closer gears, don't forget that turbo's love taller gears- moreso than NA's. By the time full boost hits in a Corrado or Civic- geared car, you'll be lifting to shift. When dealing w/really high-HP cars like Defastest, etc, you don't NEED the shorter gears as much & sometimes need taller gears- which is partly why the Vipers & such have taller gears, w/their 80% of a NA 500ft/lbs on tap @ 2000rpms...
SPECIAL Tool- you said you have an S2 tranny w/out 951 5th. So, you have ALL the S2 gears plus S2 final drive/R&P?
Danno's Racer X site has a great list of 944 gears: http://www.951motorsports.com/
ALL 951 & S2 gears are the same except 5th & final drive...
951 FD = 3.375
S2 FD = 3.875
C&D tested Turbo S ('88) had 3.875 FD- ran 13.9 sec 1/4 mile (.3 faster than any 951 ever tested)- redlined 5th ~145mph - normal 951 redlines ~167mph.
S2 FD (3.875) + 951 5th (.83) = ~146mph in 5th
S2 FD (3.875) + S2 5th (.778) = ~156mph in 5th
951 FD (3.38) + S2 5th (.778) = ~180mph in 5th (what I want)
951 FD (3.38) + NA 5th (.72) = ~193mph in 5th- hole b/t 4th & 5th
Changing the whole tranny brings ALL the gears together, proportionately, as opposed to switching single gears & helps acceleration every where. C&D's 951S did 0-60 in same 5.5, only b/c it shifted into 3rd right beforehand, but by end of 1/4, was ahead by 3/10. At 120mph, it probably didn't help much either (22.1 sec) b/c of early shift (normal 951 wouldn't shift until ~125) but still, the shorter FD car would keep moving ahead until it redlines at ~145...
I talked to Powerhaus II a few times & received varying responses. 1st is damn-near impossible to switch out. 968 6-sp would be the way- not sure why speedo is tough to hook up though- that never made sense to me- why can't someone just stick a 968 ABS sensor & speedo in a 951??? The gearing's the weird thing- they crammed the top 3 gears on too closely. 968 w/custom gears 3-6 would be the deal, but PRICEY!!!
Anyway, if you're seriously considering closer gears, don't forget that turbo's love taller gears- moreso than NA's. By the time full boost hits in a Corrado or Civic- geared car, you'll be lifting to shift. When dealing w/really high-HP cars like Defastest, etc, you don't NEED the shorter gears as much & sometimes need taller gears- which is partly why the Vipers & such have taller gears, w/their 80% of a NA 500ft/lbs on tap @ 2000rpms...
Last edited by Robby; 07-16-2006 at 10:04 PM.
10-24-2005, 08:00 AM
#70
Robby - yes , 100% S2 transmission.
If you are looking for top speed, then the S2 5th and 951 R&P is the way to go, I agree. Probably could crack 200 with 275/40/17's.......
If you are looking for top speed, then the S2 5th and 951 R&P is the way to go, I agree. Probably could crack 200 with 275/40/17's.......
10-24-2005, 08:15 AM
#71
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 906
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oddjob Jim is right on the money as to the best tweak for get NA gearing sweeter to my local autocross. I have two nice sets of 15's. The OE optional black center 7/8 Fuchs, still in perfect condition and a set of four 5/18's purchased from George at 944Ecology before the 2004 season. Stripped and sanded these back to all metal, but stopped short of bright polishing them. All four round and true.
Various local 914/911 guys have been hounding me for my Fuchs, so I might just try and pull a 2 for 1 swap, sell the eight 15's and get a nice set of correct offset 7/8 16' Fuchs and go 225/245 on the next set of Hoosiers. Anybody know any sources for the more exotic 8/9 16" early offsets? Then I could go 245 all around. OR just run 8 x 16's all around. Or.......
Various local 914/911 guys have been hounding me for my Fuchs, so I might just try and pull a 2 for 1 swap, sell the eight 15's and get a nice set of correct offset 7/8 16' Fuchs and go 225/245 on the next set of Hoosiers. Anybody know any sources for the more exotic 8/9 16" early offsets? Then I could go 245 all around. OR just run 8 x 16's all around. Or.......
10-24-2005, 08:18 AM
#72
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,953
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually, the 944 NA 5th (.72) w/the taller RD tires would allow the highest top speed- 193 w/stock RD tire & 951 R&P. Danno's been wanting to do this for some time, but you'd have a huge hole b/t 4th & 5th to overcome. To get 200mph by stock 6400rpm redline- IF you ran 285/35/18's (25.85" RD), you'd have 201mph at redline w/the 944NA (.72) 5th & 951 R&P. I wonder what Scott Gomes is wanting to do w/his record breaking top speed deal...? I know he claimed close to 210mph w/his modded 951, but, he said he did it w/high revs: ~8000 of them...!
I missed Oddjob's post... Exactly right... it all depends on what you want. The smaller wheel/RD can always help too, for acceleration- losing rotational weight is an added bonus... Like magneisum phone dials- I wish Porsche would have made the technology hollow Spokes in magnesium. Making them directional on both sides, would be cool too- 18x8.5's & 18x10's w/235/40/18 & 275/35/18's... OR, half an inch up on each & 245/40/18 & 285/35/18- IF possible... Anyone have any Fikses they'd like to sell...?
I missed Oddjob's post... Exactly right... it all depends on what you want. The smaller wheel/RD can always help too, for acceleration- losing rotational weight is an added bonus... Like magneisum phone dials- I wish Porsche would have made the technology hollow Spokes in magnesium. Making them directional on both sides, would be cool too- 18x8.5's & 18x10's w/235/40/18 & 275/35/18's... OR, half an inch up on each & 245/40/18 & 285/35/18- IF possible... Anyone have any Fikses they'd like to sell...?
Last edited by Robby; 07-16-2006 at 10:12 PM.
10-24-2005, 11:38 AM
#73
Rennlist Member
Robby, you would want to run 285/30s on 10x18" rims to keep the stock diameter. 275/35s will change the final drive due to taller tires.
From what I have been told, 944n/a gears are Not interchangeable with any of the turbo gear boxes (S, S2, and Turbos). Years ago I was looking into getting a 944 n/a 4th and a 924S 5th gear set to put in my 944S trans. One of the used parts suppliers (I think it might have been George B.) put me in touch with Kevin Gross, who is a reputable mechanic on the east coast, who told me that the 944 gears are narrower than the turbo gears, and they cannot be interchanged on the input and pinion shafts. I cannot not verify this first hand, since the only transmissions I have opened up are an S and a Turbo (so they have the same gears). But before you do any thinking or planning on using 944n/a gears in a turbo trans, you would need to check on this.
8 and 9x16 mag PDs are still available on occasion, if you want to pay for them, probably $1500-2k. They weigh about 16 lbs each, where a 8x16 alum. PD is close to 20 lbs.
Lefty, a good/easy 16" setup on a 944 is to use 8x16s w/ 245/45s all the way around.
From what I have been told, 944n/a gears are Not interchangeable with any of the turbo gear boxes (S, S2, and Turbos). Years ago I was looking into getting a 944 n/a 4th and a 924S 5th gear set to put in my 944S trans. One of the used parts suppliers (I think it might have been George B.) put me in touch with Kevin Gross, who is a reputable mechanic on the east coast, who told me that the 944 gears are narrower than the turbo gears, and they cannot be interchanged on the input and pinion shafts. I cannot not verify this first hand, since the only transmissions I have opened up are an S and a Turbo (so they have the same gears). But before you do any thinking or planning on using 944n/a gears in a turbo trans, you would need to check on this.
8 and 9x16 mag PDs are still available on occasion, if you want to pay for them, probably $1500-2k. They weigh about 16 lbs each, where a 8x16 alum. PD is close to 20 lbs.
Lefty, a good/easy 16" setup on a 944 is to use 8x16s w/ 245/45s all the way around.
10-24-2005, 12:45 PM
#74
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,953
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oddjob... actually, I've ALWAYS wanted a 285/35/18- I know the RD is 25.85. Stock Turbo RD is 24.86 & Turbo S is 24.68- I just think the 285/35/18 would look awesome on the rear, but probably wont fit- a 275/35/18 will though- 25.58. Thus, the front has to match the rear- a 235/40/18 would work well w/a 275/35 & a 245/40/18 would work well w/the 285/35. Anyway I was just pointing out what it would take to break 200 w/a 951R&P, even w/a 944NA .72 5th. I've never heard that it wouldn't fit. Of course, I've also never heard of anyone actually doing it either... Danno got an NA 5th several years ago, but, I don't think he ever got around to trying to install it- I'll have to ask him sometime soon, but I KNOW the 924NA gears will not fit... I just hope the S2 5th will go into the 951 tranny
As for magnesium PD's- they're pricey, but so cool. Of course 18x10 Fikses are <20lbs now. It's just that the rear fender / wheel well area is sort of ugly looking- lower car slightly, space wheel OUT slightly & increase both wheel diameter AND RD...
As for magnesium PD's- they're pricey, but so cool. Of course 18x10 Fikses are <20lbs now. It's just that the rear fender / wheel well area is sort of ugly looking- lower car slightly, space wheel OUT slightly & increase both wheel diameter AND RD...
Last edited by Robby; 07-16-2006 at 10:18 PM.
