951North

http://www.toyo.com/tires/tire_lines...s_car/ra1.html

http://www.toyo.com/tires/tire_lines...s_car/tr1.html

Who here has personal or first hand experience with either or both of these tires.

Car is stock 87 951 (intending to run vitesse chip is spring however) Tires will not see any track or autocross (as there aren't any in my area) but driven in a performance mannor for the summer months...

I'd like to hear specifically about:
1. Turn-in responce
2. Break-away tendancies
3. lateral and longitudinal grip
4. Expected milage

Currently I have Toyo FZ4's and they are terrible, low grip mainly, even for the stock hp/tq levels...

As far as milage goes I hope to get at least two maybye three summers on these, at about 5000km (3000mi) per season.

I'm leaning to the side of the RA-1's just because the T1-R's tread design is frightning j/k seriously though I'm really looking for the maximum grip available.
On tread design though, wouldn't the larger tread blocks of the RA-1 be more stable?

Thank's all.

UPDATE 2

Tire test link by Grassroots motorsport august 2005.

http://www.grassrootsmotorsports.com...5_tiretest.pdf

M758

RA-1's are race tires that are streetable.

If you don't autocross or drive on the track they are not for you.

Serge944

The RA-1s will obviously be superior in all performance categories. However, they are an R compound tire and will wear much faster than the T1-Rs (which I hear are very good street tires).

Do you want to replace -expensive- tires every 5k miles or less?

Jaak Lepson

I dropped the Toyo's and went Fuzion ... nuff said ....

JimBob951

I have the T1-S on the 87 951. Nice tire, decent wear, great handling.

Jim,

87 928S4 a/t
87 951

HIGHBOOST

Those RA 1's are an attractive tire. I personally run P-ZERO nero, and like them very much, haven't really pushed them yet. YET haha

ninefiveone

Lets be clear about track rubber.

RA-1's and ANY track tire will NOT be superior to street tires in street conditions.

RA-1's are much more forgiving about this than most r-compounds but they need to be at temp to have good grip. I've never gotten tires up to track temps on the street and with rare exceptions no one else will either.

So in typical street usage, an r-compound is a stiff, noisy tire which doesn't grip as well (wet or dry) as a good top of the line street tire. So it's a really poor investment if you're not going to track the car.

Toyo FZ4's are an all season tire. My opinion on all season tires is that you have a no-season tire. It doesn't perform well in any season. It's not as good in the snow as a snow tire, not as good in dry or wet as a good performance tire.... It is what it is. A compromise to keep the car mobile in all conditions. But don't look for performance.

If you're looking for the maximum grip possible in a street tire I'd look at:
-Michelin PS2
-Bridgestone S03
-Toyo T1
-Pirelli Pzero
-BFG KD's

Evan70

I ran the RA-1s for the last 9 months as a street tire and track tire. Initially they are way better than any street tire in the dry, but as the tread wears they become VERY noisy. Not something you will want in a street tire. Also, of course, as the tread wears their wet traction goes right out the window. I do disagree completely with Hugh though, on the actuall grip of R compound tires on the street. I've used Kumho Victoracers, Nitto 555 R/RIIs, and the RA-1s, and all have WAY more grip than even the best street tire in the dry. No, you can't get them fully up to temp, but even at reduced temps their compounds grip way better than a street compound does.

Anyway, my advice is stick with street tires for the street, and R compounds for the track. Best bet for a good performing reasonably priced tire is the Fuzion ZRi. Put these on my Firehawk and they are WAY better than the previous BFG KDWs I had on it, and much less expensive. If you want an all out street tire, look at Hankooks new R-S2 Z212 (from tires.com). Supposed to be as close to an R compound as you can get while still giving reasonable street characteristics.

951North

Thank-you all for your input,

Baised on your comments, and manufactures data if I go w/ toyo it will be the T1-R's though I don't drive the p-car much in the wet i'd like to lean more to a tire better suited for the dry, i.e. less comprimise has been made for rain/aquaplaning. Enter the Michelin PS2's as reccommended by Hugh, Nice wide bands of rubber on those, though I didn't see and in a 16" size?

The reason there are FZ4's on it now is that's what came on it from a PO... I would never buy a "no season" tire...

Are there any other makes/models out there that are best suited for dry weather grip???
I'll check out pirelli's P-zreo Directional/asymetric system also.
I see that Michelin still make the pilot sx mxx3, would this be a better choice?
Michelin also has a Pilot Exalto PE2
hankook R-S2 Z212

I'm so confused, too many tires to choose from...

BTW my Budget is around $1000 canadian (~800usd)

Jaak Lepson

Contact Matt H ... he IS the tire guru ... and he has contacts in the Great White North, eh!

SamGrant951

My M3 has T1-S's, not a huge fan - took them autocrossing and was not impressed. For street use they seem ok.

I run P-Zero Assim's on my 951 - they are decent. Kind of a "weak" tire - Ive had to replace one from a bubble forming and the tire was in pretty good shape. Ive heard quite a few stories about them failing early. Just my .02 - Matt would know best! I will go back to a Bridgestone on both the 951 and the M3 when the time is right...as in when the current tires are toast.

JDeitz951

Kumho Ecsta MX - I have about 1000 miles on them, loved every mile on the street, smooth ride, good grip. Just got back from my 1st time with them on the track - excellent! Super traction, no loss as they heat up. Couldn't be happier with a street tire. Also very good in the wet. Large grooves, big side blocks with water passages.

But I don't know if they are availbale in other than 17s.?

ninefiveone

I've never had a r-compound tire grip as well as a street tire on a 60 degree day. There's just such a limited set of conditions where an r-compound works well and even then you need to deal with all the breakaway characteristics of r-compound rubber. I'd much rather people were not out there who don't have significant track experience running around on r-compounds. It's a formula for wrecked cars.

Just because it's a track item doesn't make it a good street item.

I've run RA-1's, MPSC, etc on the street but then again, I'm very comfortable with their characteristics at the limit and more importantly, I never go there on the street. But there's more than a few threads here of drivers who "lost" control and bent metal.

951North, if you're looking for maximum grip in the dry you need to look at specific tire categories. Go to tirerack, and look at tires in the Max Perf Summer category. I've run MXX3's before and they're fantastic grip in the dry but most modern tires meet or exceed those capabities with the added benefits of less roadnoise, better ride, good traction in the wet.

I'm running Kumho MX's now as a concession to cost (I go through a set of tires every 3-4 track days). If that wasn't a concern I'd still be running Bridgestone S03's.

ewainwright

My ..02

My favorite tire was the Dunlop D40 M2 that is no longer made. In my humble opinion, that tire was a good balance between cost, grip and longevity. Goodyear was horrible in the rain. I had a set of Continentals for all of one day – I prefer to walk than to ever have them on my car again. There are plenty of people that are happy with their Bridgestones. I was happy to get them off.

Currently, I am running the Pilots. To me theses are great tires. Rain, turn in, and high speed save my butt please dear Lord braking - its all there. My personal feeling is that the first time tires save your butt they’ve paid for themselves. However, cost and wear (even while just sitting in my driveway) are the Pilots greatest weaknesses. Tire Rack does but them on sale occasionally. I have never tracked these tires

Bill

I have the Michelin Pilot Sports. Great tire, quiet, great grip. They are wearing a little fast, but that is expected on high performance tires. Basicly, I ditto everything ewainwright said.

I would buy the Michelins again, but am unsure if I will. I am very unhappy with what Michelin did at Indy and the F1 race. I have heard many say the Bridgestones are a great tire. So if Michelin does not do something to redeem themselves for the Indy debockle, My next set of tires will be Bridgestone.