Best Tire and Rim combo for street/track?
08-17-2005, 05:53 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Best Tire and Rim combo for street/track?
I will be in the market soon for new tires and rims. I have 205s on 16inch rims up front and 225s on 16s in the back. My ideal set up will have to deal with no less then 300whp and no more then 400whp. Now I know that the tires would differ from the track to the street so I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on what would work best with in both senerios. I do have an upgraded suspension but I don't know how much that would effect what kind of tires and rims to use. Please post some suggestions. Thanks.
08-17-2005, 06:59 PM
#2
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I've settled on running the same size meats/rims all around. Particularly if you track the car, it helps to be able to easily rotate to extract maximum life out of the tires.
Was running 245/45/16 on 8X16 rims all around.
Now running 245/40/17 on 9X17 rims all around.
If it comes to it, I can go 255/40/17 on these same rims. I'm trying to avoid that because as you go wider in front, the car has a greater tendency to tramline and follow grooves.
Was running 245/45/16 on 8X16 rims all around.
Now running 245/40/17 on 9X17 rims all around.
If it comes to it, I can go 255/40/17 on these same rims. I'm trying to avoid that because as you go wider in front, the car has a greater tendency to tramline and follow grooves.
08-18-2005, 12:24 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Yeah,
I know I am going to need more meat on mine once the upgrades are complete. 225s won't hold up to 300whp to well and hard braking on 205s in the front will wear out quick. Another questiion I have is about the avaliblity of rims for 1986 951s. Isn't there a different offset that makes it harder to find rims that fit? Anyone have an answer?
I know I am going to need more meat on mine once the upgrades are complete. 225s won't hold up to 300whp to well and hard braking on 205s in the front will wear out quick. Another questiion I have is about the avaliblity of rims for 1986 951s. Isn't there a different offset that makes it harder to find rims that fit? Anyone have an answer?
08-18-2005, 12:57 PM
#5
Burning Brakes
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I have seen guys run that tire combo 245-45-16 on track seems to work great, plus like Ninefiveone pointed out, you can rotate the tires. One more thing, with to big of a tire in back you will get more understeer as opposed to having more balance ft to rear. Also to much camber front or back does not work on the street tires will wear out faster on inside.
08-18-2005, 01:07 PM
#6
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I do not believe that big tires/wheels always equate to faster times, because of the weight differences and greater rotating mass. Racers should be able to verify this experioence.
08-18-2005, 02:10 PM
#7
I never notice, anyway
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i plan on sticking with fuchs wheel throughout my 951 experience. you could play catch with the rims; they weigh so little. of course, mine are 16x7 in front and 16x8 in the rear; i hope to get a pair of 16x9s or a 16x9 and 16x8 set from a 930 so i can squeeze a bit more meat on there.
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08-18-2005, 04:02 PM
#8
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Rotating mass, in my experience, matters less at the track than on the street.
Curbing aside, tracks are smooth surfaces and don't induce the quick suspension movement you experience on street surfaces. You're also rarely accelerating from a dead stop but instead are usually in your power band in 3rd and 4th gears. On a tight rack you might use 2nd but I've never had to.
Ultimately, what really impacts lap times is grip. And here, wider tires can make a difference but there's a lot that goes into grip besides just how wide your tires are.
In an ideal world, I'd still be running 245/45/16's on fuchs at the track and 205/55/16 and 245/45/16 on fuchs on the street. The car "feels" best on the street with those sizes. The feels much more light, lively, and communicative with smaller tires and lighter rims on the street.
Curbing aside, tracks are smooth surfaces and don't induce the quick suspension movement you experience on street surfaces. You're also rarely accelerating from a dead stop but instead are usually in your power band in 3rd and 4th gears. On a tight rack you might use 2nd but I've never had to.
Ultimately, what really impacts lap times is grip. And here, wider tires can make a difference but there's a lot that goes into grip besides just how wide your tires are.
In an ideal world, I'd still be running 245/45/16's on fuchs at the track and 205/55/16 and 245/45/16 on fuchs on the street. The car "feels" best on the street with those sizes. The feels much more light, lively, and communicative with smaller tires and lighter rims on the street.
08-18-2005, 04:29 PM
#9
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
So.
Going with 17s aren't nessessary? I know they look nice but when you get the taller rims the price per tire also goes up. I have a decent set of MOMO wheels on it now and they are 16s. As stated earlier they are wrapped in 205s in the front and 225s in the back. But I was thinking that would be inadequate for my upgrades under the hood. TO4E with full 3inch exhaust and an Autothority stage 2 MAF. Also a Lindsey racing dual port wastegate. So, I will have a little more power then 225s can handle....I think?
Going with 17s aren't nessessary? I know they look nice but when you get the taller rims the price per tire also goes up. I have a decent set of MOMO wheels on it now and they are 16s. As stated earlier they are wrapped in 205s in the front and 225s in the back. But I was thinking that would be inadequate for my upgrades under the hood. TO4E with full 3inch exhaust and an Autothority stage 2 MAF. Also a Lindsey racing dual port wastegate. So, I will have a little more power then 225s can handle....I think?
08-18-2005, 05:10 PM
#10
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wider is better yes but make sure you dont get some ****ty tires
the number 1 thing that helped me get better control was going with a better tire - I now have Bridgestone S03 and absolutely love them. The car has so much more grip front and rear. Before I had some Fuzion tires and man were they a POS
I would also recommend the BF Goodrich g-Force T/A KDor some R compound Kumhos
the number 1 thing that helped me get better control was going with a better tire - I now have Bridgestone S03 and absolutely love them. The car has so much more grip front and rear. Before I had some Fuzion tires and man were they a POS
I would also recommend the BF Goodrich g-Force T/A KDor some R compound Kumhos
08-18-2005, 08:49 PM
#11
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There's nothing about 17's that will handle more power than a 16.
The point of 17's is lower profile side walls which can provide crisper turn in, better grip in corners as the sidewalls offer better support to the tread, etc.
But a good set of 16's will have plenty stiff sidewalls.
A 255 tire isn't going to handle the power all that much better than a 225. The difference will be in good tires as dr pepper notes.
I would still be on 16's as I mention above in an ideal world. I went to 17's for two reasons. I'm going with a bigger brake setup so I won't eat up brake pads as quickly at track events, and I like the look. You'll note that I'm using the same width as before.
The point of 17's is lower profile side walls which can provide crisper turn in, better grip in corners as the sidewalls offer better support to the tread, etc.
But a good set of 16's will have plenty stiff sidewalls.
A 255 tire isn't going to handle the power all that much better than a 225. The difference will be in good tires as dr pepper notes.
I would still be on 16's as I mention above in an ideal world. I went to 17's for two reasons. I'm going with a bigger brake setup so I won't eat up brake pads as quickly at track events, and I like the look. You'll note that I'm using the same width as before.
08-18-2005, 09:45 PM
#12
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I would have thought that the worked needed to change a tire/wheel's rotational speed would be the same whether you were going from 0-60 or 60-120. And that a tire/wheel combo of a larger tire/wheel weighing more would take more work to stop or slow down. And that a wider tire, especially at the front would also create more air drag and lower top speed. Since I was under the impression that a road race was not merely cornering, but accelerating and braking as well, and that an overly large tire would actually slow the times of a car on the road course, and also be harder on the brakes. If I were wrong, hat would not be news.
As to tires, compromise race/street tire are probably just that, a compromise. Buy a street tire for the street, and a race tire for track use. You won't be happy with a street tire for the track, nor a track tire for the street.
As to tires, compromise race/street tire are probably just that, a compromise. Buy a street tire for the street, and a race tire for track use. You won't be happy with a street tire for the track, nor a track tire for the street.
08-18-2005, 10:42 PM
#13
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True, the work needed to change a tire/wheel's rotational speed from 0-60 is the same as 60-120.
What's different is how much work that is in relation to everything else that's going on. 0-60 (particularly from a dead stop) you're not fighting air resistance or the rest of the drivetrain (tranny, axles, etc) as much. 60-120 air resistance, drivetrain losses, etc all add up to much more and are a lot more impacful than the rotational mass of the wheels/tires.
A wider tire does create more drag but compared to what you can loose in cornering speed it's not consequential. Loosing 1-2mph of top end for the one spot on the track where you might see 140 for 1-5 seconds is a whole lot less than loosing 3-5mph in every corner (which also costs you in top speed on the next straight).
An overly heavy tire/wheel combo will also be harder on the brakes, true. And I never said it doesn't have impact on the track. My point is that it matters less.
If I had a dime for every person on this and every other board rationalized their super heavy wheel and tire combo as being ok because "it's for the street..." It's on the street where you suffer the most with a heavy wheel and tire combo. You suffer at the track as well but if I had two sets of rims, one heavy and one light, and I was forced to use only one set at the street and one at the track...
...the light rims would go on the street.
So EdC, all the things you said are true but the question wasn't "what's the best choice for the track." If you're going for the best possible choice at the track, light and strong will always win.
I'd also point out that you can be perfectly happy with street tires on the track. Thousands of DE'ers out there can testify to that. More specifically, new drivers and even most novice-experienced drivers are better off on street rubber for a long while before they even consider race rubber. Race rubber can be very unforgiving at the limits depending on the tire. They also have a tendency to mask poor driving habits until you've exceeded your limits. Since the tire limits are higher, you'll be going faster than you would have been with street tires and that's a bad time to figure out how to deal with whatever you've gotten yourself into.
I have run DOT legal r-compounds on the street as well and so long as the weather was reasonable, they were fine. Stiff riding, noisy, and they wear quickly, however.
What's different is how much work that is in relation to everything else that's going on. 0-60 (particularly from a dead stop) you're not fighting air resistance or the rest of the drivetrain (tranny, axles, etc) as much. 60-120 air resistance, drivetrain losses, etc all add up to much more and are a lot more impacful than the rotational mass of the wheels/tires.
A wider tire does create more drag but compared to what you can loose in cornering speed it's not consequential. Loosing 1-2mph of top end for the one spot on the track where you might see 140 for 1-5 seconds is a whole lot less than loosing 3-5mph in every corner (which also costs you in top speed on the next straight).
An overly heavy tire/wheel combo will also be harder on the brakes, true. And I never said it doesn't have impact on the track. My point is that it matters less.
If I had a dime for every person on this and every other board rationalized their super heavy wheel and tire combo as being ok because "it's for the street..." It's on the street where you suffer the most with a heavy wheel and tire combo. You suffer at the track as well but if I had two sets of rims, one heavy and one light, and I was forced to use only one set at the street and one at the track...
...the light rims would go on the street.
So EdC, all the things you said are true but the question wasn't "what's the best choice for the track." If you're going for the best possible choice at the track, light and strong will always win.
I'd also point out that you can be perfectly happy with street tires on the track. Thousands of DE'ers out there can testify to that. More specifically, new drivers and even most novice-experienced drivers are better off on street rubber for a long while before they even consider race rubber. Race rubber can be very unforgiving at the limits depending on the tire. They also have a tendency to mask poor driving habits until you've exceeded your limits. Since the tire limits are higher, you'll be going faster than you would have been with street tires and that's a bad time to figure out how to deal with whatever you've gotten yourself into.
I have run DOT legal r-compounds on the street as well and so long as the weather was reasonable, they were fine. Stiff riding, noisy, and they wear quickly, however.
08-19-2005, 02:28 AM
#14
Burning Brakes
Its nice to have a set of dedicated track tires/wheels and a set of street tires/wheels if you can...wheel choices are greater if youve got an '87 or later car, IIRC, interchangeability with 17in OEM wheels is possible, 993 17in Cup2 wheels fit a 89 944.
I run OEM 16in Clubsport wheels / Yokohoma A032R tires 16 x 225 and 245s on my 944. Considering how many street driving miles I do - driving to Gingerman DEs - 3k/yr - I am keeping this combo on the car because I like how the powdercoated rims came out.
I run OEM 16in Clubsport wheels / Yokohoma A032R tires 16 x 225 and 245s on my 944. Considering how many street driving miles I do - driving to Gingerman DEs - 3k/yr - I am keeping this combo on the car because I like how the powdercoated rims came out.
Last edited by steve g; 08-20-2005 at 11:05 AM.
