went to Dyno
08-08-2005, 07:48 AM
#31
Drifting
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Espoo, Finland
Posts: 2,668
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sh*t ... I need to do some datalogging to see how my AFR curve looks like (with the link afm) ... but judging from the WBO2 display it sure doesn't wave around *that* much ...
08-08-2005, 09:00 AM
#32
Instructor
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: London
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My PLX250 / Link AFR gauge didn't make it look as bad as it was either ...
When the Link box first went in it looked really bad. After a lot of tuning it looked better.
However the Dyno Dynamics setup showed it for what it was.
On my car in particular, we did about 100 pulls and spent 7 hours with the link hand held programmer and data logger to see which cells were being accesed.
That graph is as good as it got.
I'd certainly recommend getting a wideband dyno 'plot' ....
Rick.
edited for spilling error
When the Link box first went in it looked really bad. After a lot of tuning it looked better.
However the Dyno Dynamics setup showed it for what it was.
On my car in particular, we did about 100 pulls and spent 7 hours with the link hand held programmer and data logger to see which cells were being accesed.
That graph is as good as it got.
I'd certainly recommend getting a wideband dyno 'plot' ....
Rick.
edited for spilling error
08-08-2005, 05:34 PM
#33
Racer
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: South Florida
Posts: 494
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am sorry to hear about the poor performance of the Link AFM. Quick question. Do you have the Excel formulas? If not PM me and I’ll send you the version I use. I suspect the issues that you are experiencing are from not tinkering with the system enough prior to going to the dyno. You should really try to get it close prior to going to the a dyno.
Trust me; I am the last person to ever defend the Link AFM. The major issues that I had with the 2.5 I’ve dialed in (Jason is the .5 in that his system isn’t totally dialed in he running rich), is attempting to ascertain what cell it’s using. For example, while your car is idling showing cell 305 crank up (or down) cell 205. Further, even cells 300, 310 and sadly 405 can adversely affected the idle. Lastly, if you do have the O2 sensor (I’ve read where some don’t) you have to use 1.8 resistor so your system stays in open loop while datalogging and tuning. I hope that this helps. ed
Edited to make sense
Trust me; I am the last person to ever defend the Link AFM. The major issues that I had with the 2.5 I’ve dialed in (Jason is the .5 in that his system isn’t totally dialed in he running rich), is attempting to ascertain what cell it’s using. For example, while your car is idling showing cell 305 crank up (or down) cell 205. Further, even cells 300, 310 and sadly 405 can adversely affected the idle. Lastly, if you do have the O2 sensor (I’ve read where some don’t) you have to use 1.8 resistor so your system stays in open loop while datalogging and tuning. I hope that this helps. ed
Edited to make sense
08-08-2005, 05:39 PM
#34
If you have an onboard wideband -I would DEFNITELY go by that, not by a dyno shop's O2. They don't check them - they'll say they do - that's a bull**** story. Plus yours should be up further n the stream.
Those sniffers just use the same damn thing you have - except it is mounted in a box at the end of a long K-mart metal tube that's barely hanging in the end of your tailpipe.
Those sniffers just use the same damn thing you have - except it is mounted in a box at the end of a long K-mart metal tube that's barely hanging in the end of your tailpipe.
08-08-2005, 06:39 PM
#35
While I don't necessarily disagree with that it doesn't explain why the only 3 cars with Link AFM had AFR plots like the Himalayas and the other 20+ 944s run on the same day had something sensible though, does it? A datalog with an onboard wideband is ideal but I think I'd trust a plot from a dyno over what a needle or some lights do on a gauge in the car in real time.
In this case also the dyno equipment was a close to brand new high $ set-up which I would tend to believe is kept in decent calibration; it's used for tuning mainly rather than dyno shootout and one project they were working on was a twin turbo Monaro 6.0 - the customer being Vauxhall; the UK arm of GM.
In this case also the dyno equipment was a close to brand new high $ set-up which I would tend to believe is kept in decent calibration; it's used for tuning mainly rather than dyno shootout and one project they were working on was a twin turbo Monaro 6.0 - the customer being Vauxhall; the UK arm of GM.
08-08-2005, 06:44 PM
#36
Instructor
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: London
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jim, my O2 agrees within +/- .2 with the dyno dynamics under 'static' conditions i.e while using load dyno to map individual zones.
ewainright,with the Lindsey Super 75 turbo / DPW and blitz SBC-iD boost controller I could hold a very stable boost.
If you look at the boost graph you will see a constant 18 psi level from 5000 to 6500 rpm. With the Link, this must put row 900 cells in to play. Assuming this to be the case, changing cells 945-970 with values from +/- 128 made very minimal difference. Just for confirmation, changing 845-870 under the same load / boost conditions made no difference either !
My car had MANY hours road tuning both before fitting the 'big' conversion (it was K26/8 / std head / #55 Injectors / afpr / big exhaust etc) and after the super 75 turbo / big valve head / cam /#75 etc etc. A G-Tech RR is a permanent fixture in the car as well to get regular checks of the HP/TQ curve shape.
To put more hours in to road-tuning the link would have been worthless. Bare in mind we spent over 7 hours running time and over 100 pulls in the cell ....
I did actually manage to get a very good idle and low range map by lots of road testing long before going on the dyno, so it was not just a 'raw' map.
For my part, the whole sorry link episode is over as I now have the LR Wolf-3D standalone installed and it's reacting much like any other standalone system I've mapped before (Pectel, Zytek etc)
Rick.
ewainright,with the Lindsey Super 75 turbo / DPW and blitz SBC-iD boost controller I could hold a very stable boost.
If you look at the boost graph you will see a constant 18 psi level from 5000 to 6500 rpm. With the Link, this must put row 900 cells in to play. Assuming this to be the case, changing cells 945-970 with values from +/- 128 made very minimal difference. Just for confirmation, changing 845-870 under the same load / boost conditions made no difference either !
My car had MANY hours road tuning both before fitting the 'big' conversion (it was K26/8 / std head / #55 Injectors / afpr / big exhaust etc) and after the super 75 turbo / big valve head / cam /#75 etc etc. A G-Tech RR is a permanent fixture in the car as well to get regular checks of the HP/TQ curve shape.
To put more hours in to road-tuning the link would have been worthless. Bare in mind we spent over 7 hours running time and over 100 pulls in the cell ....
I did actually manage to get a very good idle and low range map by lots of road testing long before going on the dyno, so it was not just a 'raw' map.
For my part, the whole sorry link episode is over as I now have the LR Wolf-3D standalone installed and it's reacting much like any other standalone system I've mapped before (Pectel, Zytek etc)
Rick.
08-08-2005, 08:24 PM
#37
Just out of curiosity, what are you using for a ignition pick up with the Wolf? I have used the old Wolf 3D on my RX7 and now have a Haltech E11 for my 914 and a Power FC for my 3rd Gen RX7. I'm going to be using the SMT6 on my 951 but something tells me that I will eventually move up to a stand alone EMS - maybe when I do the 3.0 liter swap 
08-08-2005, 08:33 PM
#38
Instructor
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: London
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LR have done what basically amounts to a plug & play solution. All the standard sensors are used. Knock control iscarried out by a J&S safeguard.
The entire solution comes pre-wired with the correct connectors to mate directly to the DME/KLR plugs from the 951 loom.
I just need to add a cam sensor to go full sequential. I may eventually use the boost control circuit for intercooler spray (I use a standalone Blitz SBC-iD to control the dual port wastegate).
Rick
The entire solution comes pre-wired with the correct connectors to mate directly to the DME/KLR plugs from the 951 loom.
I just need to add a cam sensor to go full sequential. I may eventually use the boost control circuit for intercooler spray (I use a standalone Blitz SBC-iD to control the dual port wastegate).
Rick
08-11-2005, 02:25 PM
#40
Racer
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: South Florida
Posts: 494
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Addressing the edit in the first post
My experiences with bucking and the Link AFM tells me that you are running lean in that particular cell range Interestingly, I found that running slightly richer in some ranges actually makes my car run somewhat smoother particularly in off boost situations with the Link. What cells are you in and rpm when you experience the problem?
Reset your TPS Span
Go To ROW STEP = TPS and hold down both edit buttons with the throttle close. Your first reading will show 0. A couple of seconds later your unit should show TPS- WOT at this point fully depress the throttle. If my experience is anything like yours you will never see 100% but rather 90 something or other
From here I would experiment with the Accel Mode. You have two choices MAP and TPS. I use the TPS as oppose to the MAP (access by edit button). Play with Accel enrichment (very little)
My experiences with bucking and the Link AFM tells me that you are running lean in that particular cell range Interestingly, I found that running slightly richer in some ranges actually makes my car run somewhat smoother particularly in off boost situations with the Link. What cells are you in and rpm when you experience the problem?
Reset your TPS Span
Go To ROW STEP = TPS and hold down both edit buttons with the throttle close. Your first reading will show 0. A couple of seconds later your unit should show TPS- WOT at this point fully depress the throttle. If my experience is anything like yours you will never see 100% but rather 90 something or other
From here I would experiment with the Accel Mode. You have two choices MAP and TPS. I use the TPS as oppose to the MAP (access by edit button). Play with Accel enrichment (very little)
08-11-2005, 05:01 PM
#41
Drifting
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Espoo, Finland
Posts: 2,668
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by eastendr
If you look at the boost graph you will see a constant 18 psi level from 5000 to 6500 rpm. With the Link, this must put row 900 cells in to play. Assuming this to be the case, changing cells 945-970 with values from +/- 128 made very minimal difference. Just for confirmation, changing 845-870 under the same load / boost conditions made no difference either !
With a big turbo and reasonable boost you were more than probably "maxing out" the AFMLink, ie. after some corrections it was already throwing maximum voltage (~4,6V depending on the clamp setting) at the DME ... and at that point the motronic simply reads the fuel injection values from the WOT row on the chip.
That's what I'm guessing anyway. It looks like some of our local guys are running into the same issue.
08-11-2005, 07:22 PM
#42
Instructor
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: London
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The chips wre supplied by Danno with the link, setup for stock 951S configuration.
The link was installed when I still had the K26/8 installed and I believe I had the same issues then, but cannot confirm it with a dyno / AFR plot as I didn't bother to RR it at that stage.
If I was maxing out the link (at only 18 PSI) why does the curve have the enormous (lean) problem between 4000-5000 RPM ?
Also changing values by as much as the +/- 128 limit should have been able to correct it ?
I asked Danno for a chip with correct mapping for the new configuration, but gave up after 6 months ...
As a side issue, why do the other 2 cars exhibit similar characteristics, particularly when one was supplied as a MAP1 setup for a 951 that was substantially unmodified except for a larger rear exhaust section ?
Graham, what were your mods at the time of the dyno run ?
Rick.
The link was installed when I still had the K26/8 installed and I believe I had the same issues then, but cannot confirm it with a dyno / AFR plot as I didn't bother to RR it at that stage.
If I was maxing out the link (at only 18 PSI) why does the curve have the enormous (lean) problem between 4000-5000 RPM ?
Also changing values by as much as the +/- 128 limit should have been able to correct it ?
I asked Danno for a chip with correct mapping for the new configuration, but gave up after 6 months ...
As a side issue, why do the other 2 cars exhibit similar characteristics, particularly when one was supplied as a MAP1 setup for a 951 that was substantially unmodified except for a larger rear exhaust section ?
Graham, what were your mods at the time of the dyno run ?
Rick.
08-11-2005, 07:42 PM
#43
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
My AFMLink was set up to run a maximum of about 20 psi although I run 18 psi max without a problem. The limitation is the ~5 volt maximum AFM voltage being sent to the DME and how the AFMLink is programmed to scale and clamp the AFM signal. My setup was configured for a stock K26/8. The maximum clamp voltage can be programmed via the handheld Link controller and it is possible that if it is set incorrectly that you may lose controllability over the A/F at higher boost. Although none of this may be of any help now to Eastendr and the others, with my setup I had absolutely no problem tuning the A/F through the Link controller.
08-11-2005, 09:04 PM
#44
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Miami, FL & Puerto Rico
Posts: 393
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by ewainwright
Addressing the edit in the first post
My experiences with bucking and the Link AFM tells me that you are running lean in that particular cell range Interestingly, I found that running slightly richer in some ranges actually makes my car run somewhat smoother particularly in off boost situations with the Link. What cells are you in and rpm when you experience the problem?
Reset your TPS Span
Go To ROW STEP = TPS and hold down both edit buttons with the throttle close. Your first reading will show 0. A couple of seconds later your unit should show TPS- WOT at this point fully depress the throttle. If my experience is anything like yours you will never see 100% but rather 90 something or other
My experiences with bucking and the Link AFM tells me that you are running lean in that particular cell range Interestingly, I found that running slightly richer in some ranges actually makes my car run somewhat smoother particularly in off boost situations with the Link. What cells are you in and rpm when you experience the problem?
Reset your TPS Span
Go To ROW STEP = TPS and hold down both edit buttons with the throttle close. Your first reading will show 0. A couple of seconds later your unit should show TPS- WOT at this point fully depress the throttle. If my experience is anything like yours you will never see 100% but rather 90 something or other
I believe i was in cell 330 0r 340, RPM below 3000. but no change in fuel value could bring my AFR from the 19's and 20's
08-12-2005, 05:57 AM
#45
Instructor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by eastendr
Graham, what were your mods at the time of the dyno run ?
Rick.
Rick.
LR DPW, MBC, Garrett t04b, Bailey DV30, Ported & Polished head, matched inlet, Widefire hg, LR Stg1 I/C, K&N panel filter, Siemens 550cc Injs, 4.0 bar FPR, AFM Link MAP1 with custom Guru 18psi chips, Bosch Super4 plugs (now smashed with hammer and thrown in bin
)....Oh, and tuning by Team Francis at Brooklands Racing
I now need to get back to Weltmeister before you, Fen, Paul, Ben etc to see if I can (briefly) get to the top of the list......
Regards
Graham
'88 Turbo S