951TurboEuroSpec

Robby everything DOC said.
They are similar in weight G60's, 16v's,8v's not sure about the 20v but i would assume that it is close...

docwyte

Nah, you can't get 300hp out of a G60. Even the Group N rallye cars didn't manage that. You can make a pretty solid 220hp out of the G60 motor easily tho. The G40 was a smaller supercharger that VW used on the Polo in Europe.

I had a 2l 16v, so it was making 134hp, but my G60 made 220hp, so it was a huge jump in hp and torque. It didn't seem to unbalance the car at all, car pushed no more than it did with the 16v.

Robby

Man, I'm drooling over all these engine swaps- didn't realize there were so many here who had done them for VW's... That's really cool...

Do any of you still have the cars?

Did any of you ever do a Quaiffe or some sort of LSD???

Evil- did the GTi feel nose heavy w/the VR6? Did you do anything to the VR6...2.9L maybe, chips, TB, cams, manifold, exhaust, etc?

The guy I know had one of the first VR6 Corrados in the country that had Shrick cams- from a well-known place- they swore up & down he did not need new valve springs- my mech (his mech at the time) told him he did- he went back & forth- he kept them stock- toasted the engine... That was one sweet Corrado- all three of them, & the Jetta, had full suspension (including sways & strut braces)- he used a lot of Neuspeed stuff at the time & they had great ride quality w/stiffer shocks & springs. He did TB, cone filter, chips, larger wheels, & Neuspeed short-shifters on all of them... That Jetta was just stronger- tighter tolerances from the factory or something... It pulled stronger all the way to redline, whereas, the Corrados, as fast as they would rip through their short gears, seemed to lag a bit towards the end of each one (of the top three anyway). I had the Jetta to almost 110 in 3rd, accidentally, b/c it still pulled so hard- supposed to redline at 100... He never had a SR prob in any of the Corrados either- found some sort of $5 fix in EC & did it to each of them. His first car was an '88 GTi 16v- it was perfect when he sold it w/95K- bigger sways, strut braces, etc, & stiff-*** springs w/Bilstein race shocks- the place that sold them tried to talk him out of them for street- too much for most people- not for bumpy roads, but, on smooth roads, it would hang better than any car I've ever driven/ridden in... The cars were all incredibly well maintained- Concours material. Yes, I'm a little nostalgic.... I love hearing stories about well-modded VW's b/c of these...

Doc- what year was the GTi? ...must have been in the '90s to have the 2.0L...? I liked the looks from ~87 when they first did the 16v (in GTi) to mid 90's when they dropped it... Always wanted one, OR, a Scirocco- unfortunately, for some stupid reason, insuring the Scirocco was almost double the GTi. I almost bought one a few years ago- white one- an '88- the only year they made white 16v Sciroccos- was also checking into some '93 Corrados & found that insurance was almost as much for the Scirocco... funny huh...? I ended up buying my '88 Turbo S, which, was about the same as a '93 Corrado, but, cheaper than a '94- also, it was ~$180/yr cheaper than an '89 951...

docwyte

No, I got rid of the GTI years ago. I didn't do a quaife, but that was next on my hit list. The car was a '91, lots of fun, I think it's the highlight of the GTI family...

Robby

yeah, that was about the best of the best for the GTi's... did that have ABS by any chance? I can't remember if the GTi's of that era ever got them...


Oh yeah, for the original poster here, sorry for the tangent, although there has been some info posted on the Corrados here for you... I wanted to mention, that there was a quick, simple fix for the SR- was ~$5 & my friend had three of them this way & never had a prob, but, this only helps if the SR is not already broken... Also, '93 & '94 had nicer interiors... Plus, the Corrado had Sunroof (metal) as opposed Moonroof (glass) but the GTi's is supposed to be easy to put in instead... Last, there is a pretty good parts bin for it, as some Audi & lot's of VW stuff can fit- for instance, brakes from an A4, as well as the A4 tractoin control was easy to get off a wrecked car & put on the Corrado- the Corrado, etc, had a weird traction control, but, it didn't do much at all really... best bet is a Quaiffe or similar.... Man, i need to stop getting into these threads... makes me want one again & I've already got my hands full w/my 951....

docwyte

Nope, none of the A2 GTI's had ABS. The later corrados had a different dash and guages in teh center console. Other than that, the interiors are the same. I've never heard of using A4 traction control or brakes, the hubs on the A4 are completely different, with different lug hole dimensions than the corrado...

Robby

...hmmmmm..... I'd have to go back through & look it up- would take awhile, but, I wouldn't mind doing it for someone who was honestly planning to do it- I hate to give out misinfo though & could be wrong, but... I remember several articles in EC- for one thing, the friend of mine put Corrado G60 brakes on his GTi 16v... I remember EC had a brake swap & a traction control type swap (if that's what you even call that that the VR6 Corrado & Jetta / GTi had...?)- I'm almost sure they were both from Audi's of that era- I'm pretty sure it was A4 though, as it was late '90's EC magazines... Now that you mention it though, I think the swap might have included more than just brakes- could have swapped whole axel or hub assembly, etc...? I remember it saying that despite everything, the brakes were still larger, etc, & were much cheaper than aftermarket solutions. Basically the same w/the traction control deal- only they said the Corrado broke w/like 21lbs of pressure or something & the Audi's had just over 100lbs, so, still nothing like a good Tordsen/Quaiffe- actually, the traction control is a completely dif thing from LSD & I'm not too sure why they even bothered. I've just read so many upgrades for Corrados & Jetta/GTi's- could be getting mixed up on some things... As for swapping out the glass roof from the GTi to the Corrado, I've heard it was easy, but, have never seen it done... kind of like getting 300HP from a G60, right...? I'm sure someone could do it w/enough work, but, I meant realisitically, I had never seen it, &, you confirmed that...

Someone mentioned G40 for the Polo- I remember a G50- Was that a typo, or, was there both? I know there was a G50 for something... I also read in EC, years later, about someone putting a G60 in the Polo... thought that was cool... I've just never been on one of these really cool VW's- always wanted to ride in a 300HP EIP 3.1L VR6... OR, even better, one of their 400 - 750HP turbo VR6's... The bug bites & keeps on biting- would love an AWD 500+HP Corrado... Thing is, I want to change everything.... I guess the most perfect car for me would be an E36 M3 w/full suspension, Audi TT interior, modded Supra TT engine w/a reliable 600+RWHP/TQ, taller gears & a 6th to boot, plus misc mods to lighten it, etc... Of course, I don't ask for much....

docwyte

EIP SUCKS! Oh, and their 3.1 kits NEVER came CLOSE to 300hp! I had one of their turbo kits and the tuning and support were terrible.

No such thing as a G50.

M Berg

Not many mods, only k&n-filter for the engine. Also Bridgestone RE540S-tyres and some weight loss (rear seat+passenger seat). Speed 93.8 mph, 60ft 2.29. It is a -92 with distributor. Eurospec with 2.9L-engine.

951S Rage

Robby. My gripe with the seating position is just particular to me. I guess cuz the Corrado was my first love and I owned it as my only car for 4 yrs before I bought the 951 as my second car. The Corrado's seating position is pretty upright...almost like a sedan while the 951 is a true sports car seating position. The 951's seating position is absolutely perfect if I haven't driven the car in awhile. But it loses its charm if I've been driving it every day for consecutive weeks. I dunno why but that's just me.

Robby

Doc- I hate to hear that- that first 400+HP turbo article in EC made them sound like the end-all-be-all for VR6 performane- I think they did a lot of really good work on Rich Chavachi's (sp?) car & then got cocky & stopped worrying about quality as much- Rich is the owner, so, I'm sure support is not an issue for him... I DO remember reading about a G50, for sure... that doesn't mean it exists, but, I remember it in an article about a Polo- that it put out ~20HP less- I also remember hearing about a G40, but, I thought they had all three...? Either way, it is possible that the G50 could have been a typo in the magazine... if there's one thing I've learned, it's not to trust magazines 100%....As for EIP, I remember by the time me friend of mine did his last Corrado, which was after the Jetta, he had gotten into a lot of VR6 circles & found that EIP did not have the best rep... sad but true...

951S Rage- that's cool- I feel the exact same way... so much so, that I ended up making some pedal spacers- I did a few threads that mentioned it, got ragged on a bit, etc, but, had a few people PM me for info on them, etc... It's really simple- if you have ever thought about getting some Sparco or Momo pedal covers, you can do that & make some simple spacers, &, get the pedals a little closer to you- then, you can be more upright, depending on how far you go... actually, a very common gripe is the wheel being too close to the switches- especially the wipers- it's even closer than the blinker- so close that many accidentally hit it w/their nuckles. Porsche used to have a factory wheel spacer, but, I've had a lot of trouble finding one. Best route, IMO, is a Momo w/their standard 15mm spacer- will put you in a more laid-back position, depending on arm length, etc. Then, you can make a pedal spacer of 1" or so & then still be more upright... I have tried various sizes & have settled on a hair under 2" for the accel & brake & a hair under 2.25" for the clutch- I wouldn't recommend going much further than this, but, 1 - 1.5" is nothing... I'm not good w/too many car projects, but, this was really easy... The only thing I need now is to bring the wheel down a hair- it rises on an angle & I would like to reduce this a tiny bit... maybe 1/2" total at the wheel... Anyway, if you are interested in more info, feel free to PM me w/an e-mail addy & I'll get back you...

Mberg- that's awesome- the 2.9L is supposed to be the best bang-for-the-buck VR6 mod- I don't understand how, since, I would think the bores would need a some machine work to get the larger pistons in there...??? Anyway, I never was able to find out how much TQ the Euro's had, but, I remember reading the HP as being ~192...? That was about what the E30 M3 had & the cars were about the same weight- they had very similar performance, only, the M3 was more traditional sports car fun w/RWD... Did you not even do chips for it? Short-shifter? Do you still have it?

Sorry for all the questions- I'm just surprised by all the people here who have had some cool VW's... makes sense, really, but, still... I'm also surprised when I talk to people who have had really nice ones, that they've gotten rid of them- the friend of mine got rid of his GTi in ~94- had had it for 5yrs... his first car- it had 95K on it & he was asking $7K- blue book value was ~$6K w/$7K being reserved for lower mileage perfect examples... People would call & say he had lot's of cool mods that they were wanting to get anyway, so, it sounded perfect- then, they'd get to his place & see the car- it was immaculate- truly immaculate- they would offer him $4500 or some sh** like that! He had a couple of harsh words w/a few of them & almost got physical w/one of them- he couldn't believe the low-ball offers.. He finally sold it to a friend for ~$5700- If he would have been able to wait another week or so, I would have given him that & had it for myself... I could have sold a POS (at that point) '89 Integra for more & pocketed a few hundred... what a world we live in....

951North

I too have looked very seriously at 'raddos in the past. My first car was an 87 gti, second scirocco 16v (which I had raced). I decided to go w/ p-car 'cause I really wanted a rwd coupe. Though I did start a project with a scirocco Mark II and a G60 motor swap but turbo instead of SC. Still have the motor if anyone's interested.... Though I've never driven a raddo it was supposidly the scirocco mark III, I can tell you the Scirocco Mark II was the best FWD car ever driven, bar none. That was the only fwd car I could induse lift throttle oversteer on, with the bad *** suspension setup I had, full neuspeed. the audi cq is a damn nice looking car too, check out www.s-cars.org the s-2 is awesome imo for an awd that is my choice.

Back to the original q. If you want a plush fwd fun car go for the raddo, If you want a kick in the *** vw get a '89 scirocco 16v, plug in a 2.0l and a Quaife with a 4k transmission any lowered 5th (.75), setup with neuspeed/koni goodies and you're set. If you want to go crazy swap out the 2.0l 16v and do a 20VTurbo... a mark II rocco weighs just shy of 2200 lbs...

however a 951 will still run circles aroud it... apples and oranges...

jasoncoker

Hey Guys,

Here is a copy of a post I made about my Corrado a while back. The discussion was more about fwd vs. rwd handling, but some of the info may be germane.

My car weighed 2750 with roll bar but removed rear seatbacks. It had H & R coilovers, poly suspension bushings, Neuspeed sway and stress bars, and upgraded brakes. Engine mods were: oil cooler, cold air intake, GIAC chip, Schrick 268 cams, valve springs, and VGi, Thermal back end, and Turn 2 aluminum flywheel pulley.

I have now modded my 951, but the statements still hold true for a stock one.

Here is the post:

Hello All,

I thought that I would chime in here as a guy who just came out of a Corrado VR6 for a 951S about six months ago.

We all know that RWD will be faster around a road course ultimately.
I think that Tomas is spot on when he factors in horsepower levels.
That said, however, a properly set up FWD car can acquit itself admirably in many circumstances.
To wit:
I used to have a fully suspensioned (shocks/springs/sways/stressbars/rollcage/poly bushings) GTi 16V. With only about 150 hp, I was about as fast through medium-speed canyons as a stock 993 cab. I was quicker through the corners, but slower in the straights. In the same car I actually was able to make a u-turn and catch up to a 993TT in a VERY tight canyon (and I was driving very hard). So, he could not use his power, and I did not have enough of it to be a problem putting it down.

My Corrado also had poly bushings/sways/coilovers/stressbars/rollbar and handled extremely well (and I could oversteer it in most corners at will). With mods I had about 200hp with 200lb/ft. As has been mentioned, accelerating out of a tight corner is not a FWD forte. This can be offset to a large degree by driving style. Coming in fast and rotating the car helps maintain a high cornering speed. At a DE event at the Streets of Willow racetrack the only cars in my rungroup (15 cars) that were faster were a modded ZO6 and a modded C5 driven by an ex-Trans Am driver. Those cars were SCARY fast . . .
Anyway, there was a 993 coupe (maybe my speed or a bit slower). There also was a stock WRX on race tires who would not let me pass (at a DE event!) for about 3 laps. Once he waved me by, I pulled out about 10 sec a lap (also driving very hard). I am not Michael Schumacher, so I think that a lot of the difference was just the cars.

So, I guess how much better a RWD car will handle depends on where the car is used and how it is set up. My Corrado would have DESTROYED my 951S on a really tight canyon, but my p-car is basically stock (so probably not a fair comparison). The high ratios of the gearbox ensure that I am in lag mode until just the very end of a corner. Remember this is in TIGHT cyns. The P-car will understeer if I try to enter the corners faster. The 944 is much better balanced (obviously), and it is much easier to drive fast, i.e., more forgiving of errors.

Please, no flames, just giving my firsthand experience of both cars.

Sincerely,
j

Robby

951North- nice link- I didn't see anything about an S2 though...sedan or hatch? I'm also wondering if the V8 in the RS4 is dif from the V8 in the RS6...? Is the RS4 normally aspirated? I loved the S4's until they stuck the V8 in- the TTV6 was awesome for simple chip mods, larger turbo(s), etc & I like the body & interior styling better... It was the most beautiful interior of any car ever made, IMO, except for the Audi TT, which, I consider it's equal... BTW- where are you? I was wondering if they made the Scirocco in '89 in Canada & other countries b/c in the states, '88 was the last year... The Scirocco got the 16V in '86, the GTi in '87... Sciroccos only came w/16v's for '87 & '88, IIRC, but, the GTi had other options... I've driven several Sciroccos- both stock, &, suspension modded- there weren't a whole bunch of affordable mods for those engines that did much, unfortunately. Still, that GTi I mentioned above, was by far the best handling car I've ever been in for smooth surfaces- I'm sure a similarly set-up Scirocco or Corrado could equal it though- the Corrado was often called hte best FWD chassis ever made in it's heyday... Have you ever actually weighed any of these cars? I weighed my Turbo S @ 3160lbs- full tank, spare, etc. I've read anywhere from 2200lbs to 2600lbs for the Scirocco & GTi 16v's- always believed ~2350 - 2375lbs curb & ~2500 - 2550lbs actual test... MT compared an '87 Integra & 16v Gti once- the GTi won performance in about every category, by a narrow margin- I eventually put Tokico shocks, Eibachs, & Muegen bushings on my Integra & it handled extremely well... As for FWD cars though, I agree that the Scirocco, GTi, & Corrados were among the best. A Type R might be stiff competition... Too bad VW doesn't make such cars anymore- would love to be able to go out & buy a brand new GTi or Scirocco for $13k...

Jason- the "VGi" you listed- is that the Shrick variable rate of gain manifold or whatever? Those things were pricey- looks like you had close to $5K in that engine- when you say 200HP, do you mean wheel or flywheel? I would think you'd have closer to 220HP at the crank & a 2.9L w/all that stuff would have another 10-15 or so...??? Not sure, but, either way, it goes to show how expensive it was to get a little extra out of the VR6- suspension was easy & fairly cheap, but, not engine-wise.. for that money you could almost get it turbocharged... I love all that stuff though... just not wealthy enough to play in that game... yet...

Gearing has been mentioned several times in this thread, but, these cars have very short gearing- the 951 is pretty nice for a street car- some might call it a little tall, but, 5th is actually a little short. Redlines @ 167 @ 6400 means you'll be turning more than 3000 @ 80mph... It's all relative to what kind of HP & TQ the car has, it's power to weight ratio & WHERE that HP & TQ come in & how long the band is... For instance, most really strong cars have much taller gearing, unless they have a 6-sp (or 7?) & can have the best of both worlds... For a street car though, it makes more sense to have 4 good relatively close gears & a hole b/t 4th & 5th, if neccessary, to maintain a tall crusing gear- at least in the US. My answer is- it's not that the gears are too tall, it's the car is underpowered... A 951 w/chips & exhaust makes the gearing feel about perfect in realtion to it's power... My Integra, on the other hand, would suck w/such tall gearing- the 16v VW's would too... But, you double the HP w/a 1.8L Audi Turbo & the gearing starts to feel short... Best example of a torquey motor w/tall gears is the Viper GTSR- 1st gear hits almost 60mph & 6th is good for just over 300!!! It's actually too tall, but, what better engine to be able to use such tall gears...? Best bang-for-the-buck mod is shorter FD (higher numerically)- the one they commonly use yeilds sub 12's @ 1/4 & brings 6th down to ~240 w/all the other gears proportionally reduced... Imagine how short 16v gear ratios in that car would feel... I guess it's all in what you want to do, but, for those of you who like really short gears, you can get a 3.65 for the 951- the Turbo S tested in C&D way back in the day had a 3.65... It really didn't help 0-60 b/c the shift to 3rd came right before, but, the 1/4 mile was 13.9 instead of the normal 14.2... Also, 0-120 was listed @ 22.1 IIRC & the shift to 5th came right beforehand, possibly hurting that time a little bit too, whereas a normal 951 would shift into 5th ~125 (redline being 134). Anyway, just some discussion for those who care to know...

951North

S2 can be found at http://s2central.net/ (it's an affilliated site from s-cars) I don't think any were sold in north america but the same engine setup can be achived by swapping an audi 200 turbo and bottom end under the 20v cq head... I'm simplifing here of course... my racing buddy had an 87coupe done up with the 2.2 I5 turbo and with the "Big spring" in the waste gate (22psi boost) was making 300+ hp est. the car could break loose in third gear no problem (2wd though as that's what the racing rules allowed)

canada saw 1989 model sciroccos, though they may not have had 16v engine come to think out it...

IIRC my scirocco 16v weighed in at ~2150lbs w/ me in it (165), gas tank may have been low...

The gearing for those fwd cars are very short, for reasons mentioned above, the best I could muster w/ the rocco was ~205 kph (GPS Speed) ~215 on the speedo. That's why I mention the 4k tranny (3.94 FD) w/ a .75 fifth conversion. first four gears are a riot aruond town, and if you had enough oomph in the engine (ie. 20v turbo) to take advantage of the tall fifth you could probably get up to 155+mph (205/50r15 & ~6650rpm)...


what's the point of this idle banter getting o/t...

If you're not getting a 951, and want a fun fwd, get a mark II Scirocco (1988) or GTI16v(1992), Sleek looking AWD, Audi Coupe quattro....


In a perfect world, I'd have all three, and then some!!!