Oh Rob

 

Why would "new" hydraulic lifters fail within only an hour of running time?

By failure, they clatter like heck, when removed you can compress them with very little effort, and they are scratched up on the cam surface.

 

Rolex,
I understand what you wrote. Let me ask you something. Are you running a different cam? What changed in the head that can make only your lifters fail three times? Even Milledge runs crazy cams and big valve heads with no problems.

 

Dr. Evit:


"Rolex,

I understand what you wrote. Let me ask you something. Are you running a different cam? What changed in the head that can make only your lifters fail three times? Even Milledge runs crazy cams and big valve heads with no problems."

Yes I am using a different cam that was a special grind, just for the solid lifters. Click on the link under my sig that will take you to my home page, and lists all my mods too. And regarding the head? It has nothing to do with the head too. It is a matter of poor quality control of these OEM lifters which are only being made by a company called "INA". Go and look at a box of new OEM lifters at a Porsche dealer. Open them up, and they will be stamped with "INA" on them. Anyway, the threads above went into those details. I am just one end user, but LR is seeing hands on and hearing a lot of OEM lifter issues "lately".

As for my own "personal experience", so I don't' get flammed, I will share my story below. We had the engine finally together and started hearing tapping. After careful deduction, we pulled the cover off and removed the lifters. As such, 7 were bad. So, we went and ordered a complete "new" set of OEM ones. I wasn't going to take a chance, I wanted all brand new ones. The first set was tested "prior" to being installed, but after installation the tapping began. We let the car sit for about 20 min. We then started it up, but the tapping came back. We went thru this process "multiple" times, hoping the "1st set" would fully pump up and be fine. They never did, so we pulled them out and checked them. And guess what, 7 were totally soft - hence bad! So, we went and sent them back, bought a 2nd new set to try. Same issues, yet again. And then we tried a 3rd new set, etc. I think you get the point by now?

So, what are my options? 1.) keep trying and hoping that maybe after buying and installing, let's say, 5 or 10 new sets, that I "luck out". And who is absorbing all this labor cost for trying out these new OEM sets in the process, me or Lindsey? On a different note, this is very important to me too. I am investing a lot of money into my 3.0L, the last thing I want to hear is it sound like crap and make a tapping noises. Thanks, but no thanks! Hence, the only option was to convert to solid lifters. I did "NOT" consider this because I wanted to rev the engine higher. Let me state, this has just started becoming an issue with OEM lifters. Obviously OEM lifters haven't been a problem in the past, but now they are. And those posts above attest to it, and so does my own "personal experience" with "3 brand new" sets. And trust me, as time goes on, you will hear more and more issues about OEM lifters having severe issues. And oh, let's not forget the performance issue at hand? Forget about the noise for a second. If they lifters aren't pumping up and staying pumped up, do you think I am getting 100% full lift? No. So, I'm obviously loosing out on HP too!!

I hope this helped to clarify things.

 

Rob,
Its Mr. evil to you, not evit?

Anyways, I was wondering if you were using a different cam with the hydraulic lifters. I do uderstand what your saying. I'm just trying to reverse engineer what your doing. no offense, no bashing. just trying to help.
Evil

 

Dr. Evil: (My bad, sorry!)

I was initially had the Webcam #274 in the car with the OEM lifters. So that should answer your question my friend. But now, with the solid conversion, I am using a "special grind" Web cam. Actually, we are going to test 3 different ones.

I'll give you more updates as I get them.




Winslow:

My sincere apologies pal for hi-jacking your thread. But hopefully I did add some value regarding your valve options in the beginning of the thread? Again, sorry my friend.

 

Evil 944t,

Which camshafts are JME using for those engines? When I look at their descriptions for the different camshafts the race-version (RST 304M2/280M-14 ) requires solid lifters and the (RHT B13/8SR-14) needs modified intake hydraulic lifters.

I also had 1 hydraulic lifter that went bad after 5000 km. I don't know whether you can make a mistake during installation, because my previous mechanic also made some errors during installation of a valve guide, which cost me a head .

 

The reason why I ask is. Some cams that get reground or have radical angles that will wear lifters.

Rob,

Your right, he has two kinds of cams( solid/hyr) and I can't tell you exact grinds but the bigger cams are used at high rpms. Agian I can't speak for Milledge.

 

Whats very often? How did they determine it was very often? Is it after 20 years of use they start to crack? Is it because of poorly tuned cars?

You need to think critically about these things.

 

If you are using their web site as a reference, its about 2 years out of date in terms of the cams they offer! They have any more now...

 

That maybe true, but even they say that with aggresive cams at certain RPM-ranges it's advisible to use solid lifters. As said before it's all about the goals someone is after.

At the moment the only disadvantage I've heard is that you need to be able to measure and if necessary change the lash/gap. LR at least have thought about this. If they hadn't that would be a bummer.

You may question the need of solid lifters or race springs, but if there are no drawbacks and people want to spend that amount of money, why not? I would like to know if there are other drawbacks when going to race springs with or without solid lifters. What about the interval between timing belt changes? Should I shorten it by, let say, 50%, due to the heavier load?

 

Even if there are drawbacks, and people want to spend the money, they still can! There is a whole thread on the subject not too many months ago...

 

Rolex,
the bad tapping sound that came from your bad lifters; was that sound at any RPM or only at idle, or did it go away at higher engine speeds (like maybe when the oil pressure was higher)?
Maybe you could message back; I'm curious to know.

I also noticed alot of 951s have that sound at idle; however, only at idle. I was thinking this is normal.

 

TurboTommy:

Glad to share "my personal experiences" pal. See below.



Rolex,

The bad tapping sound that came from your bad lifters; was that sound at any RPM or only at idle, or did it go away at higher engine speeds (like maybe when the oil pressure was higher)? Maybe you could message back; I'm curious to know.

(It was head at idle, worse at mid RPMs, and even worse again at higher RPMs. It never went all on "all 3 new sets". Never. It would come and go on all the " 3 new sets", but never went away for good. Again, these were all fully tested prior to being installed - and where ROCK HARD. And actually, I didn't state this in any of my postings yet, but this is something to note too. Lindsey and I were so disgusted with the 1st & 2nd set (quality of course) that we had the distributor "hand-pick" every single new lifter themselves. But moreso, made sure they fully tested every single one prior to shipping them to Lindsey.

I also noticed alot of 951s have that sound at idle; however, only at idle. I was thinking this is normal.

(To my knowledge it can be normal, yes. Especially if they are old, as most of these cars are. Because stock lifters are be older, they could take a few seconds or maybe minutes to pump-up; it usually then goes away. However, if you start hearing that tapping noise and it doesn't go away, or gets progressively worse, then they may be on their way out. If so, pull them and check them, before they do severe damage - as stated in the theads I posted above).

I hope this helped, if not PM me.

 

My 89 has 180K on it. 10K ago a very capable owner/mechanic rebuilt the engine. He replaced 1 bad lifter with an OEM (from Porsche), it was an INA lifter. It upon inspection from loud valve train and getting worse...3 bad lifters. One was the INA.

If I were rebuilding a motor and wasn't expecting to run over 16 psi boost, I would keep the stock lifters.

If I were expecting to run higher boost levels, the minimum I would do is look into refreshing the springs with ones designed for my expected boost level.

Since my car has all the crazy bottom end stuff, and a turbo that is leaking oil, I am planning to go with a bigger turbo, solid lifters, and run higher boost.