Cheap water injection source
01-07-2005, 12:08 PM
#31
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That could definitely be true. I do think the system is pressurized before the TB just as it is on the runners.
Really, alot of these questions can be answered at http://www.waterinjection.info/phpBB2/ better than it can here. There are alot of guys with general WI knowledge there including a rep from Aquamist.
Max
Really, alot of these questions can be answered at http://www.waterinjection.info/phpBB2/ better than it can here. There are alot of guys with general WI knowledge there including a rep from Aquamist.
Max
01-07-2005, 12:31 PM
#32
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Actually it turns out that the site I just listed is an Aquamist site. Anyway, here is a post on port injection:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=76
Max
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=76
Max
01-07-2005, 02:31 PM
#33
Three Wheelin'
Port water injection would be a problem if the water was not atomizing, as show by what Laust thinks happened to his motor. But it still remains the better setup.
Thank god for the 951's long intake runners.
Thank god for the 951's long intake runners.
01-07-2005, 03:06 PM
#34
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Ford used steam under high pressure in 67 on GT40's as it is easier to achieve full atomisation however when the MK5 GT40 was raced this had the steam injection removed.
I don't have any pictures of the Subaru or cosworth heads as these were just jobs that come through my shop. The other thing to remember with any form of water injection is you have to use purified water, virtually pharmacutical quality under high pressure to avoid damage. Personally I would not use it on the street or track unless I needed to run very high boost levels ...2bar
For the record the metalurgy report for the subaru WRX detected that the erosion was due to water injection as we were lost for words at the level of erosion.
I don't have any pictures of the Subaru or cosworth heads as these were just jobs that come through my shop. The other thing to remember with any form of water injection is you have to use purified water, virtually pharmacutical quality under high pressure to avoid damage. Personally I would not use it on the street or track unless I needed to run very high boost levels ...2bar
For the record the metalurgy report for the subaru WRX detected that the erosion was due to water injection as we were lost for words at the level of erosion.
01-07-2005, 06:09 PM
#35
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while individual port water injection sounds and in theory is good one has to be very carefull
As I have stated in the Bob Norwood 4K post I am not a sceintist but know engines well
To have individual port injection you must have also 3 things in order:
1 a good way to controll it not only pump but computer, programable mapping etc
2 small nozzles that will get VERY good atomization
3 proper positioning of the nozzles in order to give space and enought travel of mist to mix with intake I would say as far as possible from the head at the begining of the intake runners,,,,,problem is our runers are not of equal lenght and you do wat to sycronize...so some testing is involved
another way to do it is inject into the intake manifold after the TB giving room for mist to mix evenly with air...however I am not a fan of this for a number of reasons....
the best option for me at least ..is to inject soon after the IC in the IC to TB pipe in the location where the pipe raises a little so it shots the mist straigth down the pipe allowinbg for as even as psooble mixture and without interruptiong the air flow.......
I would like to have someone test my thories...anyone have a flowbench I could use?
As I have stated in the Bob Norwood 4K post I am not a sceintist but know engines well
To have individual port injection you must have also 3 things in order:
1 a good way to controll it not only pump but computer, programable mapping etc
2 small nozzles that will get VERY good atomization
3 proper positioning of the nozzles in order to give space and enought travel of mist to mix with intake I would say as far as possible from the head at the begining of the intake runners,,,,,problem is our runers are not of equal lenght and you do wat to sycronize...so some testing is involved
another way to do it is inject into the intake manifold after the TB giving room for mist to mix evenly with air...however I am not a fan of this for a number of reasons....
the best option for me at least ..is to inject soon after the IC in the IC to TB pipe in the location where the pipe raises a little so it shots the mist straigth down the pipe allowinbg for as even as psooble mixture and without interruptiong the air flow.......
I would like to have someone test my thories...anyone have a flowbench I could use?
01-07-2005, 06:51 PM
#36
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"Personally I would not use it on the street or track unless I needed to run very high boost levels ...2bar"
That is true only if youare looking for knock control. But the cool charge air benifits are also very impresive with water injection. I.e. you can get intake temps well below ambient especially if running dual stage a cooled charge. (water with/meth as cold as you can get it, sub 32deg, you are looking at 40-50degree intake temps
Yes on the track that would not last long but I am speaking mostly of street use. But even not running a cooled charge you are still getting a greatly reduced intake temp even over a water to air IC.
The military used supercharges w/ water inj for years and years.
That is true only if youare looking for knock control. But the cool charge air benifits are also very impresive with water injection. I.e. you can get intake temps well below ambient especially if running dual stage a cooled charge. (water with/meth as cold as you can get it, sub 32deg, you are looking at 40-50degree intake temps
Yes on the track that would not last long but I am speaking mostly of street use. But even not running a cooled charge you are still getting a greatly reduced intake temp even over a water to air IC.
The military used supercharges w/ water inj for years and years.
01-07-2005, 06:53 PM
#37
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"while individual port water injection sounds and in theory is good one has to be very carefull"
Yes, direct injection requires far more in dept analysis, and very presise control methods, i.e. duty cycle control of the injection. Not just dump some water in there
But, back to the point of this post, this site offers a very cost effective way to have a water injection system. Bare bones, cut to the chase. These systems are not intended for high end direct port, etc, etc.
Yes, direct injection requires far more in dept analysis, and very presise control methods, i.e. duty cycle control of the injection. Not just dump some water in there
But, back to the point of this post, this site offers a very cost effective way to have a water injection system. Bare bones, cut to the chase. These systems are not intended for high end direct port, etc, etc.
01-07-2005, 06:59 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by toddk911
"Personally I would not use it on the street or track unless I needed to run very high boost levels ...2bar"
That is true only if youare looking for knock control. But the cool charge air benifits are also very impresive with water injection. I.e. you can get intake temps well below ambient especially if running dual stage a cooled charge. (water with/meth as cold as you can get it, sub 32deg, you are looking at 40-50degree intake temps
Yes on the track that would not last long but I am speaking mostly of street use. But even not running a cooled charge you are still getting a greatly reduced intake temp even over a water to air IC.
The military used supercharges w/ water inj for years and years.
That is true only if youare looking for knock control. But the cool charge air benifits are also very impresive with water injection. I.e. you can get intake temps well below ambient especially if running dual stage a cooled charge. (water with/meth as cold as you can get it, sub 32deg, you are looking at 40-50degree intake temps
Yes on the track that would not last long but I am speaking mostly of street use. But even not running a cooled charge you are still getting a greatly reduced intake temp even over a water to air IC.
The military used supercharges w/ water inj for years and years.
How about a reciculating system through the Air conditioning????????
Methanol would improve matters, how about a chunk of dry ice in front of the intercooler for good measure!!! They do something similar in F1 on the grids to stop engines overheating. The other alternative is move to UK, here we have lovely cold dense air that Porsches seem to love. Although I would still swap it for some SoCal Sunshine!!!!
01-07-2005, 07:02 PM
#39
Three Wheelin'
"2 small nozzles that will get VERY good atomization
3 proper positioning of the nozzles in order to give space and enought travel of mist to mix with intake I would say as far as possible from the head at the begining of the intake runners,,,,,problem is our runers are not of equal lenght and you do wat to sycronize...so some testing is involved"
The only reasonable nozzles for a port setup are all small by nature and atomize well, unless you buy the kind that squirt a straight line and I doubt anybody is dumb enough to do that.
What is your source of information saying that nozzles could not be placed as close to the head as possible?
3 proper positioning of the nozzles in order to give space and enought travel of mist to mix with intake I would say as far as possible from the head at the begining of the intake runners,,,,,problem is our runers are not of equal lenght and you do wat to sycronize...so some testing is involved"
The only reasonable nozzles for a port setup are all small by nature and atomize well, unless you buy the kind that squirt a straight line and I doubt anybody is dumb enough to do that.
What is your source of information saying that nozzles could not be placed as close to the head as possible?
01-08-2005, 12:06 AM
#40
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To be honest that is what I think is the best way..no source...there are a few reasons and also I want to inject a distance a way from the fuel injectors.....remember the mist is sprayed constantly.....more or less....
01-08-2005, 12:36 AM
#41
Three Wheelin'
My mode of thinking is that all the water is going to atomize because it will be under crazy pressure and temperature by the time spark goes off. There should be no problem with atomization as long as you do not have big liquid droplets in the intake charge. This and you dont use too much, to put the flame out.
My system locates the nozzles as far as possible from the head, but this was due to space reasons not because I believe putting them closer would be any worse.
I just wanted to make sure you didnt get that information from a book or something.
My system locates the nozzles as far as possible from the head, but this was due to space reasons not because I believe putting them closer would be any worse.
I just wanted to make sure you didnt get that information from a book or something.
01-08-2005, 06:44 AM
#42
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Well see I am using mine with mainly water for cooling and detonation controll..so it's better far from the head......lf youre using mainly methanol...that's different....allthough I have no sources I have done my homework well and also know a few things......
01-08-2005, 04:16 PM
#43
Darius:
Do you have problems with water condensation inside the vacuum lines? I have plans to install a WI system, but have some concerns with the effect of water vapor in my MAP sensor.
Do you have problems with water condensation inside the vacuum lines? I have plans to install a WI system, but have some concerns with the effect of water vapor in my MAP sensor.
01-08-2005, 07:09 PM
#44
Three Wheelin'
Interesting point TurboCab, but I do not think it is an issue. Water will be injected after all vaccum connections (on my setup anyway), and only when the intake velocity is way too high for any backflow of air. Unless backpressure gets too high of course.....but this is a whole separate issue.
I have loaded up my MAP sensors with gasoline when I exploded my fuel pressure dampner, and they cleaned out fine with some compressed air and acetone.. Not sure what water would do though.
Another update on my system, I mounted the water rail today, the spring that I need still did not come
, and I am looking for some brackets to hold the rail to the underside of the manifold. I have some ghetto ones made, but with the quality of work being much higher on the rest of the system so far, I couldnt use them!
I have loaded up my MAP sensors with gasoline when I exploded my fuel pressure dampner, and they cleaned out fine with some compressed air and acetone.. Not sure what water would do though.
Another update on my system, I mounted the water rail today, the spring that I need still did not come
, and I am looking for some brackets to hold the rail to the underside of the manifold. I have some ghetto ones made, but with the quality of work being much higher on the rest of the system so far, I couldnt use them!
01-08-2005, 07:30 PM
#45
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I am not worried about that at all, just make sure you calculate the amounts and nozzle sizes correctly, I for instance use bigger nozzles as I increase boost...I like my simple setup....of course I will have to get sophisticated...lol......TurboCab do you have standalone engine management?