Dark Lightning

Agreed.

theedge

So, what POSSIBLE benefit is that going to provide? You complain about weight of an a2w system, then pitch a monster kit that hacks god knows what up, weighs god knows what, and has increased pressure drop, etc etc.

Not being sarcastic, just trying to see the uhhhh comparison/logic here.

Matt H

Have you ever picked up a giant Spearco intercooler? I am guessing not because they dont weigh a whole lot (I doubt 2 pounds more than the stock unit).

Further, it was in response to Tomas statement that finding a location for a A-W would be easier. I dont know what could be easier than removing the bumper and bolting on an IC.

I have virutally everything deleted on my car now about all that is left is AC and headlights, and there is a good probabilty those things will go soon, and there is just not a lot of room to place anything under hood. I cant imagine how hard it is with a car that has all the stock stuff still in it.

I am not saying "dont do it" I am saying that I dont think there will be much/any gain for your hard work. I would love to be wrong but I dont think I will be.
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Matt H

As to pressure drop, etc. It is funny that argument show up so much here, especially from a group of people that has not one member with a true FMIC in it. I can tell you from experience with my other cars (RX-7s, Supras, and a few others) that a FMIC adds HP, enough HP that a 1500-3000 dollar IC upgrade is not really all that unusual.
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NZ951

Matt, if you dont have an AC bracket sorted, the broadfoot one is a very nice piece and cheap in comparison. I could take a pic or two tomorrow for you if you like.

Dark Lightning

I'd submit that the 'monster kit' probably weighs less than a stock IC + the removed bumper material.

And how much hacking would be required to install an air-water system? Apples to apples, you'll have to do a LOT of modifications under the hood.

And that's the real point of this conversation, right? Will installing an air-water intercooler and of the associated hardware provide better results than a comparatively priced air-air intercooler?

I'm willing to bet a steak dinner than 95+% of the 951 community doesn't require more cooling ability than a roughly stock sized air-air intercooler.

Not to break ranks with a fellow air-air advocate , but what is a 'true FMIC'? (I know I'm about to talk below your experience level, it's more for the rest of the crowd.) I'd consider any intercooler placed forward of the radiator support and at/near the vehicle's centerline a 'front mount intercooler'. Examples would include Neon SRT4s and Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution 8s. Eagle Talons and Toyota Supras come with a 'side mount intercooler.'

Now seriously, what the hell does it take to keep a discussion on track around here?

Matt H

John, I was attempting to differentiate between the stock mount (which could be considered FM) and a big *** honking intercooler that would go in front of the radiator (for the most part). I would agree, the SRT-4 and Evo are FMIC and the Talon and Stock Supra are SM, while one might say the WRX and RX7 are top mount..
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NZ951

And GTI-R... on top of engine IC's are referred to as interwarmers

DanR 1201

Lotus seemed to have developed a very efficient a-w cooler that takes up minimal space for the Esprit S4(s). Plus people are tweaking those 2.2l motors for some very high outputs. Check it out on some of the Esprit sites. One of those systems, or similar, wouldn't take up much space.

UK952

The lotus has a good reason for going that route - poor airflow at the rear (and lack of space) good airflow at the front and lots of space (relatively) making a small weight and complication penalty less critical.
However, is someone wants to try it, I say let him get on with it and wish him luck. Where would we be if people didn't try a chip change, or a wastegate swap etc. etc. we have pointed out the negatives so now if you want to still try go ahead! Good Luck
Tony

Tomas L

Yes, I do think Corleone has a nice setup. That's probably the way I will go when time and money permits. Since I live in northern Sweden and don't do much track running I don't think placing it in front of the radiator will be a problem.
However everytime that type of ic is discussed a couple of people screams how bad it is with the ic placed in front of the radiator.
My point was you have more freedom in placement with an air-water system.

I think it's funny how intercooler and exhaust system upgrades are downrated here on Rennlist. On most other turbo cars this would be among the first upgrades done but here all you hear is that the stock items are good for a zilion rwhp. From what I can see people seems to think that if it's possible to run 400rwhp through the stock IC and exhaust system then it's also a good idea to do that and there is no gain in replacing them.
I find this hard to understand since these are two modifications that really has no downsides except cost.

Tomas

Duke

Couldn't agree more!
The common perception seems to be that if it's possible to make 400rwhp on the stock IC and exhaust then there is no need to upgrade those.
Strange, because the same logic applies to the AFM.
Of course you could make high hp with the AFM in place, just that you can make the same hp at a lot lower boost with a MAP/MAF.

John..

There is no closed loop A/W IC that is 100% efficient at any steady state conditions, that is BS. If the air to air is sized properly it will be more efficient than a closed loop air to water system. I'm not talking about ice packs here or a truck bed with 300 gallons of cold water. The arguement is that the air to water unit can absorb more heat, but remember you have to dump that heat through another radiator somewhere. it is the old Ntot=n1*n2 efficiency example.

For offshore boating...the air to water is clearly the way to go since you have an infinite supply of cooling water and it is a one step heat transfer. In my mind, the only reason to put a/w on a street car is if you don't have room for a/a...and this happens a lot.

For the 928 TT 4.5 liter I went a/a, it is simple and reliable as a brick. If I do a 32 valve, I will want a/a, but a/w is an alternative...but the decision would be made on available space, not efficiency.

Bengt Sweden

It's not that simple. Re-read Dannos post. It is about heat transfer efficiency. You can also do with a smaller water to air cooler since it can be designed differently. This means that for the same frontal area you can have more cooling area since the water channels can be much thinner and therefore you can have more of them.
B

thesmokingman

EXACTLY.