Cup Car questions
10-26-2004, 10:40 AM
#16
Pete, as usual you are right on the money with your prior response. The only clarification is that I spoke to bilstein a while back and was told that at some point the gold and green colors were both being used for the "cup suspension". At some point I think about three years ago they changed the color. I do not remember from what color to what color. Anyway at that time, I was told they were interchangable.
10-26-2004, 11:20 AM
#17
Race Director
I agree that the Cup suspension is to hard.. Another Swedish Cup car owner reported that the car jumped about a meter sideways in Kesselchen on the Nürburgring since it was to stiff.
10-26-2004, 04:22 PM
#18
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so, special tool,
The suspenison lindsey, and others refer to as escort cup suspension IS cup suspension? What spring rate would you recommned for someone thats a weirdo like you? would you recomend this setup over that of Leda's offerings? is there a better setup?
~Eyal
The suspenison lindsey, and others refer to as escort cup suspension IS cup suspension? What spring rate would you recommned for someone thats a weirdo like you? would you recomend this setup over that of Leda's offerings? is there a better setup?
~Eyal
10-26-2004, 05:25 PM
#19
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The bilstein sets that are advertised as “Firehawk” and “Escort” is somewhat of a marketing ploy. The terms come from race series sponsors during the 80s and early 90s. The Firehawk series was an IMSA race series sponsored by Firestone, and the model of tire was the Firehawk. SCCA ran a Pro Endurance Championship series that was sponsored by Escort radar detectors and later also by Playboy magazine.
944, 944S, Turbo, and S2 cars were run by US Race teams and Dealerships in both the IMSA and SCCA venues. There are some particulars to each car and year, but in general, they were delete optioned US cars (bumpers, frt/rr side markers) with race suspension and tuned motors; the specs mimic the Turbo Cup Cars. 8 & 9 x 16 magnesium phone dials, 30mm front sway bar, 21mm rear 3 way adj rear, Mag intakes and oil pans, sunroof and A/C delete, manual steering, fiberglass hoods, plastic mirrors, etc. From what I can find, this was option M637 and these cars are referred to as Club Sports. But its more common to hear the Turbos that raced in the SCCA series called Escort Cars (and also incorrectly as Cup Cars) and the S2s in the IMSA series as Firehawk Cars. A handful of these cars ended up on the street, but it would be difficult to argue that it was an available dealer option.
The European and Canadian Turbo Cup cars used bilstein struts/shocks. The US Spec Club Sports sent here for the Escort and Firehawk Series used Koni. So, its ironic that bilstein shocks are being sold as “Firehawk” or “Escort” since Bilsteins were not used on these cars (at least not as OEM).
The US Club Sports (at least the S2s and the 87+ Turbos) came with double adjustable (both jounce and rebound) koni struts and coil over rear shocks, that were both ride height adjustable. These are different and stiffer than the standard koni single adjustable sport yellow shocks that are available aftermarket or came with the M030 sport suspension option.
The front double adjustable struts are no longer available, but you can still have them custom made through Paragon or direct from Koni. Paragon found a bunch of the rear double adjustable coilover shocks that Koni made for the Club Sport type cars. If you call and talk to Jason, he will tell you they are 10-15 years old, and have been sitting on a shelf since then. Take a look at their website:
http://www.paragon-products.com/prod...rearcupkit.htm
I have not seen the springs on a Canadian or European Turbo Cup car in person, so I cannot say for certain, but the springs used on the US Club Sport Koni Dbl Adj suspension look the same or are similar to pictures of the Turbo Cup car setup.
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/pi...ilsteincup.htm
I have seen the suspension/springs on a 91 S2 Club Sport and an 87 Turbo Escort Car and they both match the spring set I have that originally came from Kelly Moss Racing. The fronts are progressive rate around 180-410 lb/in; the rears are less progressive somewhere in the 200-300 lb/in range and were used as helper springs in conjunction with 25.5mm torsion bars. The front springs have a slight coil diameter taper (like the M030 springs where the upper perch has a larger coil diameter than the lower perch), and also the spring wire itself tapers in diameter. The rear spring is constant coil diameter but the wire also tapers slightly.
I have seen another type of Koni suspension that TurbCup mentioned. It uses double adjustable shocks and struts, but has a barrel type spring, non ride height adjustable rear coilover. Similar to the 968 M030 rear shock helper setup, but not the same (968 koni suspension was not double adjustable). The front struts are ride height adjustable but the front spring does not have the tapered wire or coil diameter, it has a section of tight coils and looks similar to a weltmeister 200 or 250 lb/in spring. I have a picture of this setup in an old ’91 Andial catalog and it is described as being used in the American Showroom Stock Series. That is a reference to the SCCA Escort series but I have never seen an Escort or Club Sport Car with this suspension. The only time I have ever seen this suspension was on a standard 89 Turbo about 10 years ago. A previous owner of the car had it installed. I didnt ask if the current owner knew where the suspension had come from, but my guess at the time was and still would be Andial. I rode in the car around the track, and it was definitely stiffer than my stock 89 Turbo (M030) suspension, but my guess is that this setup, with the rear barrel springs, is not as stiff as the other Club Sport spring sets.
I also have a couple sets of the bilstein race shocks which are similar to the original Turbo Cup car suspension. I got them from another source, but the valving (the fronts are 600/180 and the rears are 565/218) is similar to the Lindsey Racing sets which tells me the valving is probably an off the shelf setup from Bilstein, probably dating back to the Cup Cars. Porsche, Bilstein, and Koni have not been doing any development on these cars for years, so I doubt what is available today is much different than what was out there 15 years ago.
If you look at the sets that are shown on Powerhaus website,
www.powerhaus.com/used_cars.htm
and look at the red 87 944 Turbo pictures, the front Bilstein Struts are green and the rear coil overs are zinc plated. Bilstein used green and now they use the zinc gold tinted plating.
There are still a few guys around that will have some first hand info on the racing and the Club Sport/Escort cars. Not sure if they are willing to talk about it, but Jon Milledge of JME (the engine builder) was a 944T driver in the Escort series, and I know that Carlsen Porsche in CA was one of the Dealers that campaigned a car. Dave and Jeff Stone at Kelly Moss ran S2s in the Firehawk series and once upon a time had a lot of the cars and motorsports parts (unfortunately long gone) lying around after they moved on to the World Challenge with 911 Turbos in ‘94.
944, 944S, Turbo, and S2 cars were run by US Race teams and Dealerships in both the IMSA and SCCA venues. There are some particulars to each car and year, but in general, they were delete optioned US cars (bumpers, frt/rr side markers) with race suspension and tuned motors; the specs mimic the Turbo Cup Cars. 8 & 9 x 16 magnesium phone dials, 30mm front sway bar, 21mm rear 3 way adj rear, Mag intakes and oil pans, sunroof and A/C delete, manual steering, fiberglass hoods, plastic mirrors, etc. From what I can find, this was option M637 and these cars are referred to as Club Sports. But its more common to hear the Turbos that raced in the SCCA series called Escort Cars (and also incorrectly as Cup Cars) and the S2s in the IMSA series as Firehawk Cars. A handful of these cars ended up on the street, but it would be difficult to argue that it was an available dealer option.
The European and Canadian Turbo Cup cars used bilstein struts/shocks. The US Spec Club Sports sent here for the Escort and Firehawk Series used Koni. So, its ironic that bilstein shocks are being sold as “Firehawk” or “Escort” since Bilsteins were not used on these cars (at least not as OEM).
The US Club Sports (at least the S2s and the 87+ Turbos) came with double adjustable (both jounce and rebound) koni struts and coil over rear shocks, that were both ride height adjustable. These are different and stiffer than the standard koni single adjustable sport yellow shocks that are available aftermarket or came with the M030 sport suspension option.
The front double adjustable struts are no longer available, but you can still have them custom made through Paragon or direct from Koni. Paragon found a bunch of the rear double adjustable coilover shocks that Koni made for the Club Sport type cars. If you call and talk to Jason, he will tell you they are 10-15 years old, and have been sitting on a shelf since then. Take a look at their website:
http://www.paragon-products.com/prod...rearcupkit.htm
I have not seen the springs on a Canadian or European Turbo Cup car in person, so I cannot say for certain, but the springs used on the US Club Sport Koni Dbl Adj suspension look the same or are similar to pictures of the Turbo Cup car setup.
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/pi...ilsteincup.htm
I have seen the suspension/springs on a 91 S2 Club Sport and an 87 Turbo Escort Car and they both match the spring set I have that originally came from Kelly Moss Racing. The fronts are progressive rate around 180-410 lb/in; the rears are less progressive somewhere in the 200-300 lb/in range and were used as helper springs in conjunction with 25.5mm torsion bars. The front springs have a slight coil diameter taper (like the M030 springs where the upper perch has a larger coil diameter than the lower perch), and also the spring wire itself tapers in diameter. The rear spring is constant coil diameter but the wire also tapers slightly.
I have seen another type of Koni suspension that TurbCup mentioned. It uses double adjustable shocks and struts, but has a barrel type spring, non ride height adjustable rear coilover. Similar to the 968 M030 rear shock helper setup, but not the same (968 koni suspension was not double adjustable). The front struts are ride height adjustable but the front spring does not have the tapered wire or coil diameter, it has a section of tight coils and looks similar to a weltmeister 200 or 250 lb/in spring. I have a picture of this setup in an old ’91 Andial catalog and it is described as being used in the American Showroom Stock Series. That is a reference to the SCCA Escort series but I have never seen an Escort or Club Sport Car with this suspension. The only time I have ever seen this suspension was on a standard 89 Turbo about 10 years ago. A previous owner of the car had it installed. I didnt ask if the current owner knew where the suspension had come from, but my guess at the time was and still would be Andial. I rode in the car around the track, and it was definitely stiffer than my stock 89 Turbo (M030) suspension, but my guess is that this setup, with the rear barrel springs, is not as stiff as the other Club Sport spring sets.
I also have a couple sets of the bilstein race shocks which are similar to the original Turbo Cup car suspension. I got them from another source, but the valving (the fronts are 600/180 and the rears are 565/218) is similar to the Lindsey Racing sets which tells me the valving is probably an off the shelf setup from Bilstein, probably dating back to the Cup Cars. Porsche, Bilstein, and Koni have not been doing any development on these cars for years, so I doubt what is available today is much different than what was out there 15 years ago.
If you look at the sets that are shown on Powerhaus website,
www.powerhaus.com/used_cars.htm
and look at the red 87 944 Turbo pictures, the front Bilstein Struts are green and the rear coil overs are zinc plated. Bilstein used green and now they use the zinc gold tinted plating.
There are still a few guys around that will have some first hand info on the racing and the Club Sport/Escort cars. Not sure if they are willing to talk about it, but Jon Milledge of JME (the engine builder) was a 944T driver in the Escort series, and I know that Carlsen Porsche in CA was one of the Dealers that campaigned a car. Dave and Jeff Stone at Kelly Moss ran S2s in the Firehawk series and once upon a time had a lot of the cars and motorsports parts (unfortunately long gone) lying around after they moved on to the World Challenge with 911 Turbos in ‘94.
10-26-2004, 06:14 PM
#21
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Some pictures of my genuine Cup suspension... the shocks were green but painted in yellow when revalved (argh !! i wanted the stock color... i'll have to wait for the next time to get them back the original green)..
Front
Rear
Front
Rear
10-26-2004, 06:26 PM
#22
Three Wheelin'
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Wow thanks Oddjob. Great info. 
I guess it would be hard to classify any of these suspension setups as
a factory option.
I'd like to upgrade the suspension and stay in a stock class but I guess it's not going to happen.
Thanks again for all the info.
I guess it would be hard to classify any of these suspension setups as
a factory option.
I'd like to upgrade the suspension and stay in a stock class but I guess it's not going to happen.
Thanks again for all the info.
10-27-2004, 12:34 AM
#23
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what I'm after is just a bad *** suspension setup, close to the best... favroing track... So where, and what should I look for when looking for escort cup? That lindsey stuff id not as good? Should i expect to pay more then the 2200 from lindsey?
~Eyal
Edit: thanks for the great info by the way!
~Eyal
Edit: thanks for the great info by the way!
10-27-2004, 10:00 AM
#24
Three Wheelin'
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Eyal 951 , Call Paragon Products. They can help you put together a good
suspension. The Lindsey price looks pretty expensive compared to the Koni
setup I'm thinking about getting through Paragon.
suspension. The Lindsey price looks pretty expensive compared to the Koni
setup I'm thinking about getting through Paragon.
10-27-2004, 10:56 AM
#25
Rennlist Member
$2300-2500 is the going rate for a full race bilstein coilover suspension (call it Cup or Escort or whatever the seller refers to it as). This will include the perches, springs, and probably camber plates.
I think the bilstein stuff is very good. Thats what I have used on my last two club race cars. And I am also using linear springs that are about 100 lb/in stiffer than the Cup/Club Sport springs. I dont think that the koni dbl adj or the ledas are noticeably better or worse. If you want to have the ability to make a lot of adjustments, you may prefer the adjustable koni or leda.
An equivalent Koni Double Adjustable Suspension is going to be very close to the same price unless you are sending your own single adjustable koni struts in for revalving. Dont quote me on the prices, but I recall the converting a single adjustable to double adjustable is about $250 a strut, so you have $500 to do that, you need the front coil kit which is around $300, camber plates $300, rear coilover shocks $700. But there are other options with the koni, where you can have a single adj strut revalved as a single adj, with a firmer valving to handle a stiffer spring, I think this is around $100 less per strut than the double adj rebuild. Koni North America or Paragon can elaborate on those options.
But with any of these setups, be prepared for a stiff ride on the street. As stated by others, even if you dont go with obnoxious spring rates, the shock valving will make for a bumpy ride.
Asarus, thanks for the pictures of your suspension. Obviously I cant tell spring rates from looking at the pics, but by appearance they are the same as the Club Sport springs that I have.
I think the bilstein stuff is very good. Thats what I have used on my last two club race cars. And I am also using linear springs that are about 100 lb/in stiffer than the Cup/Club Sport springs. I dont think that the koni dbl adj or the ledas are noticeably better or worse. If you want to have the ability to make a lot of adjustments, you may prefer the adjustable koni or leda.
An equivalent Koni Double Adjustable Suspension is going to be very close to the same price unless you are sending your own single adjustable koni struts in for revalving. Dont quote me on the prices, but I recall the converting a single adjustable to double adjustable is about $250 a strut, so you have $500 to do that, you need the front coil kit which is around $300, camber plates $300, rear coilover shocks $700. But there are other options with the koni, where you can have a single adj strut revalved as a single adj, with a firmer valving to handle a stiffer spring, I think this is around $100 less per strut than the double adj rebuild. Koni North America or Paragon can elaborate on those options.
But with any of these setups, be prepared for a stiff ride on the street. As stated by others, even if you dont go with obnoxious spring rates, the shock valving will make for a bumpy ride.
Asarus, thanks for the pictures of your suspension. Obviously I cant tell spring rates from looking at the pics, but by appearance they are the same as the Club Sport springs that I have.
10-27-2004, 11:27 AM
#26
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A reasonable compromise can be had (for higher expense, in the 3000 range) with Moton club sport shocks, I have mine with 550# in front and 650# rear, and when bump and rebound are set full soft for the street, the ride is definitely easy enough to live with, I inflate the street tires to 32-33 lbs. when set at third or fourth click, the shocks are really effective on the track. In no way legal for any stock racing classes but a great setup for a dual purpose car.
10-27-2004, 11:30 AM
#27
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10-27-2004, 11:38 AM
#28
I have a set of the Green Bilstein inverted race struts but they are not ride height adjustable. I have seen one other set of these, they came from Chris Cervelli (reportedly). The ones from Cervelli had been modified to accept a ride height adjustable spring perch. They are model AK110/AK111, no one at Bilstein knows anything about them, anyone know exactly where they came from, and if they can be converted using old ride height adjustable housings?
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