Garett and KKK
08-28-2004, 03:37 AM
#31
Rennlist Junkie Forever
A K27/6 will get you to about 335RWHP - 345RWHP at around 18psi boost (with the usual bolt-on stuff).
The T04E .50 /KKK-6 hybrid will probably do the close to the same. Educated Guess.....
The -8 hot side of the KKK is too big for the street on a K27 or larger compressor. You'll have lots of lag and it will get old.... at least it will on a 2.5 engine.
TonyG
The T04E .50 /KKK-6 hybrid will probably do the close to the same. Educated Guess.....
The -8 hot side of the KKK is too big for the street on a K27 or larger compressor. You'll have lots of lag and it will get old.... at least it will on a 2.5 engine.
TonyG
08-28-2004, 03:43 AM
#32
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Hi Tony,
I must correct you on this. I don't think the .84 AR is too
huge for the 2.5L engine. Prior to my purchase I did a
physical examination as well as took some measurements.
Surprisingly, they are very close in dimensions. The .64 AR
would be too small for our cars. The hot housing on these
turbo are base on T25 & not T3 series which is much smaller.
I'm still at the mids with tuning the engine. Hope to get some
dyno numbers soon. I would have to agree with you Tony, the
expense & time incurred does may not justify the used of the
GT25 but for me I just have to do it. One thing for sure, the power
delivary is very, very linear much like a big cu. engine.
BTW Tony, do you know what the manufacturers do to arrive
at the flow figs. of the turbo. Is it by calculation or by testing ?
If by testing, do they measure it at the outlet of the turbo nozzle
or do they fit an intercooler & measure it at the outlet ?
Thanks
I must correct you on this. I don't think the .84 AR is too
huge for the 2.5L engine. Prior to my purchase I did a
physical examination as well as took some measurements.
Surprisingly, they are very close in dimensions. The .64 AR
would be too small for our cars. The hot housing on these
turbo are base on T25 & not T3 series which is much smaller.
I'm still at the mids with tuning the engine. Hope to get some
dyno numbers soon. I would have to agree with you Tony, the
expense & time incurred does may not justify the used of the
GT25 but for me I just have to do it. One thing for sure, the power
delivary is very, very linear much like a big cu. engine.
BTW Tony, do you know what the manufacturers do to arrive
at the flow figs. of the turbo. Is it by calculation or by testing ?
If by testing, do they measure it at the outlet of the turbo nozzle
or do they fit an intercooler & measure it at the outlet ?
Thanks
08-28-2004, 03:59 AM
#33
Rennlist Junkie Forever
JChen
On a T04 turbine, the .84 is much too large for a 2.5. Even a .70 is very large for a 2.5. The .58 and .63 are more in the proper upper size limits for a 2.5L stock engine. I've played around with these at great length to arrive at my conclusions.
However, I've not played with the GT series turbos... so I could be off.....
The dyno chart I posted on this thread was a .58 a/r turbine setup. It was a little small for the top end capability of my engine. But... it still produced quit a bit of lag. As you see from the dyno chart, there was not enough gas energy to drive the turbine until about 3500rpms (absolute beginning)... more like 4000 rpms by the seat of the pants.
I ran the same compressor (60-1HiFi) with a bb center section and an "O" trim, .70 a/r trim turbine for a long time. The lag was a little more, but the top end was much better than what you see in that dyno chart. The problem is that 99.9% of all 951's don't have the top end capability to make power to 7k+ rpms. Thus it would be a waste on a 951 engine that only made power to 6500 rpms.
The GT25 compressor in general is pretty small. I was getting ready to plot some compressor maps against it some time ago, then the girlscouts at Innovative told me not to bother.... to stay with the 60-1. ... "don't shoot the messenger"... :-)
TonyG
On a T04 turbine, the .84 is much too large for a 2.5. Even a .70 is very large for a 2.5. The .58 and .63 are more in the proper upper size limits for a 2.5L stock engine. I've played around with these at great length to arrive at my conclusions.
However, I've not played with the GT series turbos... so I could be off.....
The dyno chart I posted on this thread was a .58 a/r turbine setup. It was a little small for the top end capability of my engine. But... it still produced quit a bit of lag. As you see from the dyno chart, there was not enough gas energy to drive the turbine until about 3500rpms (absolute beginning)... more like 4000 rpms by the seat of the pants.
I ran the same compressor (60-1HiFi) with a bb center section and an "O" trim, .70 a/r trim turbine for a long time. The lag was a little more, but the top end was much better than what you see in that dyno chart. The problem is that 99.9% of all 951's don't have the top end capability to make power to 7k+ rpms. Thus it would be a waste on a 951 engine that only made power to 6500 rpms.
The GT25 compressor in general is pretty small. I was getting ready to plot some compressor maps against it some time ago, then the girlscouts at Innovative told me not to bother.... to stay with the 60-1. ... "don't shoot the messenger"... :-)
TonyG
08-28-2004, 04:46 AM
#34
Drifting
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Tony for your application the girl scotts could be
right. But for not so over the top mods, I think
The GT25TO4S is a greta turbo. In fact I would dare
to say that it's the modern incarnation of the K26/7
but with much bettter overall performance.
Oh, talking about AR nos. It has always confused
many people. It should be used only in comparison
to the specific model of turbo being compared too.
I too made this mistake. A .64 AR hot housing of a
T25 is not the same size as a 64.AR AR of a T3
hot housing. So, to all you guys out there researching
for a turbo upgrade, keep this in mind. BTW, this
also applies to the cold side as well
right. But for not so over the top mods, I think
The GT25TO4S is a greta turbo. In fact I would dare
to say that it's the modern incarnation of the K26/7
but with much bettter overall performance.
Oh, talking about AR nos. It has always confused
many people. It should be used only in comparison
to the specific model of turbo being compared too.
I too made this mistake. A .64 AR hot housing of a
T25 is not the same size as a 64.AR AR of a T3
hot housing. So, to all you guys out there researching
for a turbo upgrade, keep this in mind. BTW, this
also applies to the cold side as well
08-28-2004, 05:09 AM
#36
Drifting
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08-28-2004, 05:37 AM
#37
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Here it is.
As you can see.. the GT2540R can't stay up with a 2.5 running over 20psi. Not even close.
And compared to the 60-1, the GT2540R is going off the compressor map past the TQ peak... where as the 60-1 is hitting its peak performance.
Also to note is that this is a 60-1 map.. not a 60-1HiFi. The 60-1 HiFi flows 10% less, which puts it in an even better position against the GT2540R.
In this scenario, the 60-1 would provide a much wider TQ curve since it's getting into it's peak performance efficiency area where the TQ would normally drop off... and.. the GT2540R has fallen off considerably.
Here it is...
As you can see.. the GT2540R can't stay up with a 2.5 running over 20psi. Not even close.
And compared to the 60-1, the GT2540R is going off the compressor map past the TQ peak... where as the 60-1 is hitting its peak performance.
Also to note is that this is a 60-1 map.. not a 60-1HiFi. The 60-1 HiFi flows 10% less, which puts it in an even better position against the GT2540R.
In this scenario, the 60-1 would provide a much wider TQ curve since it's getting into it's peak performance efficiency area where the TQ would normally drop off... and.. the GT2540R has fallen off considerably.
Here it is...
08-28-2004, 06:55 AM
#38
Racer
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TonyG:
Sorry that I`m so confused and don`t understand all this turbo things, but I anyway would like to have your opinion on a turbo/maf matching my configuration if that`s possible?
Good engine, 2.5L with the following mods:
Lindsey Stage 3 head (big valves, max port, o-ring and WideFire gasket)
Lindsey Stage 2 IC
Lindsey 3" exhaust no cat and DualPort WG
upgraded fuelsystem and the usual stuff
Have been thinking about the vitesse stage 2 kit (t04e turbos) but doesn`t really know what to do..
I`m not that good in engine stuff, so a bolt on is the best for meg... although I got friends, and would be able to do something if thats the only way to go
Looking for something like 400+hp (350+ rwhp maybee?) but with a disent(quick) spool like everyone elso
Also would like to have oppertunity to go +20psi if needed.
What do you think?
Sorry that I`m so confused and don`t understand all this turbo things, but I anyway would like to have your opinion on a turbo/maf matching my configuration if that`s possible?
Good engine, 2.5L with the following mods:
Lindsey Stage 3 head (big valves, max port, o-ring and WideFire gasket)
Lindsey Stage 2 IC
Lindsey 3" exhaust no cat and DualPort WG
upgraded fuelsystem and the usual stuff
Have been thinking about the vitesse stage 2 kit (t04e turbos) but doesn`t really know what to do..
I`m not that good in engine stuff, so a bolt on is the best for meg... although I got friends, and would be able to do something if thats the only way to go
Looking for something like 400+hp (350+ rwhp maybee?) but with a disent(quick) spool like everyone elso
Also would like to have oppertunity to go +20psi if needed.What do you think?
08-28-2004, 11:20 AM
#40
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Agreed Tony but I went with the GT25 not for
running above 20psi. It's always a catch 22
situation when choosing a turbo but look at
how early the compressor starts to flow. My
aim in choosing the GT25 is to get as much
power as possible between 3000-5500rpm.
What about comparing this map to a K27 ?
I've also learned that comparing compressor
flow maps can be very misleading cause how
the compressor performs will depend alot on
what turbine wheel & hot housing is choosen
not to mention the VE of the head itself.
running above 20psi. It's always a catch 22
situation when choosing a turbo but look at
how early the compressor starts to flow. My
aim in choosing the GT25 is to get as much
power as possible between 3000-5500rpm.
What about comparing this map to a K27 ?
I've also learned that comparing compressor
flow maps can be very misleading cause how
the compressor performs will depend alot on
what turbine wheel & hot housing is choosen
not to mention the VE of the head itself.
08-28-2004, 11:30 AM
#41
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Hello!
I have been reading this and the myriad of old posts about turbos and which make power when and such, but I'm still confused. My question....
I will be rebuilding a stock 2.5l and wish to upgrade the turbo and perhaps injectors (and chips to match). What is my best choice for a reliable, nice 330-350rwhp daily driver? I'm thinking of going with the K27/6 conversion, maybe 52lb/hr injectors and hopefully finding someone to burn chips to match. The exhaust will be 3" from the turbo back, no cat. Would the K27/6 be my best choice, or would it be better to get the T04e/b with the k6 hot side and center? I'm looking mostly for reliability and good spool up (great torque at lower rpms). Not really looking for a massive HP peaky powerband. I was thinking about the Vitesse kits, but I don't want to spend that much money right now. also thinking about going to the TEC3 later down the road.
Tony, I'd appreciate any suggestions!
Also do you know anyone that could burn a good set of chips for a reasonable price to fit that setup?
thanks.
Dal.
I have been reading this and the myriad of old posts about turbos and which make power when and such, but I'm still confused. My question....
I will be rebuilding a stock 2.5l and wish to upgrade the turbo and perhaps injectors (and chips to match). What is my best choice for a reliable, nice 330-350rwhp daily driver? I'm thinking of going with the K27/6 conversion, maybe 52lb/hr injectors and hopefully finding someone to burn chips to match. The exhaust will be 3" from the turbo back, no cat. Would the K27/6 be my best choice, or would it be better to get the T04e/b with the k6 hot side and center? I'm looking mostly for reliability and good spool up (great torque at lower rpms). Not really looking for a massive HP peaky powerband. I was thinking about the Vitesse kits, but I don't want to spend that much money right now. also thinking about going to the TEC3 later down the road.
Tony, I'd appreciate any suggestions!
Also do you know anyone that could burn a good set of chips for a reasonable price to fit that setup?
thanks.
Dal.
08-28-2004, 02:03 PM
#42
Rennlist Junkie Forever
JChen
Based on what you want, it looks like you got a good turbo.
I like rpms... RPM translate into power.
I'm not too familiar with the GT series turbos (as I mentioned above), and the part number you have doesn't match the number on the compressor map. Are you sure the two are the same? Also... I've seen quite what appears to be a very strange naming convention with respect to these turbos and lots of variation.
Also... I wish I could find the actual 60-1HiFi map instead of having to use the 60-1 map. It would make these calculations more accurate.
I don't have a K27 compressor map.. I wish I did. I thought I had one, but it was not.
TonyG
Based on what you want, it looks like you got a good turbo.
I like rpms... RPM translate into power.
I'm not too familiar with the GT series turbos (as I mentioned above), and the part number you have doesn't match the number on the compressor map. Are you sure the two are the same? Also... I've seen quite what appears to be a very strange naming convention with respect to these turbos and lots of variation.
Also... I wish I could find the actual 60-1HiFi map instead of having to use the 60-1 map. It would make these calculations more accurate.
I don't have a K27 compressor map.. I wish I did. I thought I had one, but it was not.
TonyG
08-28-2004, 02:30 PM
#44
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Hey Evil...
I've been back at the 951 world... just finished a mild 951 with full suspension/brakes, stock engine with the typical bolt-on stuff.... using a K27/6
It runs real good, but I have not gotten it on a dyno yet. Probably 325RWHP. The Tial 46 with the manual boost controller is rolling off the boost on the top end. It's probably got the wrong spring in there... so we're waiting to swap the tranny out, when we have to pull the exhaust, to change the spring. That's when we'll do the final tune and see what it puts down to the wheels.
Also, I'm on the process of getting another Rennlisters 2.8L 951, which will also run with the above car on the track.
So.... I can't escape these cars even if I wanted to.
TonyG
I've been back at the 951 world... just finished a mild 951 with full suspension/brakes, stock engine with the typical bolt-on stuff.... using a K27/6
It runs real good, but I have not gotten it on a dyno yet. Probably 325RWHP. The Tial 46 with the manual boost controller is rolling off the boost on the top end. It's probably got the wrong spring in there... so we're waiting to swap the tranny out, when we have to pull the exhaust, to change the spring. That's when we'll do the final tune and see what it puts down to the wheels.
Also, I'm on the process of getting another Rennlisters 2.8L 951, which will also run with the above car on the track.
So.... I can't escape these cars even if I wanted to.
TonyG
08-28-2004, 02:33 PM
#45
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Dal
Get the K27/6. It will do what you want, is inexpensive, and is a direct factory fit (except you'll have tweak the water pipe a little... no big deal).
If you want to modify your cross-over, etc... and spend more money, then you might be able to get something a tad bit better.... but I doubt it will be better by much.
JChen's GT Turbo setup sounds interesting, and the map is a nice one which would also do what you're looking to do. It's just more expensive, and is not a bolt-on deal...
Call Dan at Guru Racing for the chips.
TonyG
Get the K27/6. It will do what you want, is inexpensive, and is a direct factory fit (except you'll have tweak the water pipe a little... no big deal).
If you want to modify your cross-over, etc... and spend more money, then you might be able to get something a tad bit better.... but I doubt it will be better by much.
JChen's GT Turbo setup sounds interesting, and the map is a nice one which would also do what you're looking to do. It's just more expensive, and is not a bolt-on deal...
Call Dan at Guru Racing for the chips.
TonyG