I think you are confusing spraying water on it with spraying water into the intake. I have the VDO kit they offered...

 

TurboTommy I am trying to extract as much out of the stock turbo as I can safely do at this time. I will be changing the turbo some time in the future but my car is an ongoing project for me so I would like to see where I can go with what I have now. I am not sure how much boost I will actually run in the end I would like to start spraying at the boost level I am at and see the affects with increased timing then go on to higher boost levels. I figure if I go with the the two nozzles the smaller one before the intercooler for less chance of water collecting in the intercooler and the bigger one after the intercooler that should give me a good balance. And since with the Tec3 I can actually control the duty cycle of the water injection like the fuel if the nozzles are a little to big it will not matter as much since they do not have to spray 100% of the time.

I know I will at least be spraying a washer fluid mix. I am open to other options as long as it is easily obtained localy. Where can Methanol be obtained from? I do not plan to use the aquamist pump. I linked to the pump I am thinking about using above which flows 3.1 L/min at 150 psi.

So basicaly I am trying to find a median between safety and more power. Do my plans seem to be on track or do I really need to pick a boost levle and design my system from there? The hardest part is we are starting to push the stock turbos past what most people say we should go and I am unsure how far I want to go.

I really appreciate all of the help I received so far.

 

All implementing WI-

This is a cool discussion. I am not at this point in my car...yet. Given that, if any of you could document the steps, parts, fabrication and any other advice for your 951 WI setups, it would be much appreciated by the community.

Given that, it sounds like there are many ways to skin this cat. One thing that I am always curious about is the situation when the holding tank runs dry either completely or momentarily due to cornering/acceleration/braking. How will you guys combat this possibility? Will you use level senders? Does your pump sense a dry situation? I would imagine that losing your WI mid-boost would be a disaster. Am I correct?

Max

 

Max it is funny that you mention about the possibility of failure because I was just thinking about that. ThomasL basically mentioned in another thread that multiport injection will give you the best water distribution into each cylinder and I can not think of a way to automatically make things safe if this happens in that situation. If I inject the water before my MAT sensor I can see what temps I will be at with the injection and program in some ignition retard with higher MAT temperatures. I can do this using the Tec3 but I don't know of any way to protect yourself with the factory ECU.

 

Yeah, I didn't know if it had already been tackled. It wouldn't take long to detonate if you suddenly lost WI while running 3-4psi of extra boost due to the WI.

WI would be a part of the standalone upgrade for me (along with boost control). I am thinking about standalone and part of the attraction is the ability to control these auxillary outputs. I would probably want to integrate a level sender along with your MAT idea and dial back boost/timing in the case of a WI failure.

Does anyone know how to implement a level sender? Maybe something off of a factory windshield sprayer...could be from any car I guess.

Max

 

Max a level sensor is fairly easy. I know Aquamist has one you could put in your tank. I am not to worried about that my main concern is if something goes wrong and the system stops functioning.

 

Darius, I'm assuming you're just changing out nozzles when you're going with your changes in boost levels?
Turbo Tommy

Yes you are correct....I also am not a big fan of running the nozzle before the IC due to condesation ..I think it's more efficient if one lets the stock coling system do it's jobe and just add the extra cooling at the end ..right before the TB....it's becouse I am running only one nozzle so I want the max out of it...what I also like about injectiong right before the TB is that with the Drag manifold..the plennum allows for good mixture ...I am not sure about running 2 nozzles..I like the spray pattern of one and plus I read that 80 psi at least is neccesarry for good atomization....
The only thing left is if I should mount the nozzle pointing straight down(90 degrees or at 45 degrees spraying at an agle and further down the tube right in the TB......
Tazzman ...was cost the reason you chose to go with the other kit instead of the Aquamist?

 

Darius do you understand how well I can control a water injection system with the Tec3?

I will admit that cost is part of it but I really think with the level of control I can have with the Tec3 I can build a better system and save a little money at the same time.

The Aquamist seems like a nice kit and if I had no way of controlling the water injection it would be a hard choice between that and the Snowperformance kit although I did not look into how much the two kits cost to get the same level of control out of each kit.

 

Tazman,
with your stock turbo, you might be able to achieve slightly better midrange performance with the use of an injection system. Or, are you running into detonation already at your present boost levels (whatever that is?)?

But, I hate to say it, unless you run a big enough turbo, you will have very little gains (you might even lose power). You can stand on your head and do cartwheels; it will not change that fact. Scenario: you turn up the boost, ineffecient compressor heats up the air more than it should, you inject water to cool it down, density ratio goes up and the turbo has to flow even more, then it heats the air some more again, and so and so on. Your chasing your tail.

So, we are back to what I said in my last post.

I get my methanol at a local fuel shop. It's not like race gas; you buy a pail and it lasts forever.

No one needs to worry about water in the IC. Charge air velocity will always be high enough to get rid of the water in an even and timely fashion.

Projected water injection rates that are being thrown around here are to high.

Darius,
the best locations for the nozzles are either in the end tank in front of the IC (helps a little in the pressure drop department) or just after the IC (like you said; cooler final temp). Tap in at 90 degrees to the charge air.

 

Thanks TurboTommy you seem very knowledgable about water injection and I apreciate you taking the time to help me out.

I do not have any detonation at my present boost level of 18 psi but I am only running 20 deg of timing on full boost up to 5500 rpm then just up to 21 deg above that. I see my MAT (which is placed right after the intercooler) rise from cruising at 30 C to 40 C on boost and I just think that is to much to be safe. So I was thinking that if I run water injection turn up the boost to 20 psi and advance the timing a little I will see some gains.

I am willing to use methanol if I can find some place local to get it.

What are your thoughts on maximum MAT after the intercooler?

Have you ever consider spraying on the outside of the intercooler to prevent heat soak?

I am curios about your statement about placing the nozzle in the end tank in front of the intercooler I would have thought close to the turbo would have the best affect.

What are your thought on multi port injection right before it goes into the intake ports?

Here is my dyno chart at 18 psi incase you did not see when I posted it before to give you an idea of my results at the present time.

 

Taz,
your dyno looks good/normal for your engine, but your turbo is still pretty much maxed out. BECAUSE your putting out the right power with your present turbo, water injection won't do anything for you (I know you don't want to hear it).
Your turbo can't really flow effeciently for more boost (except for the midrange), you have no pinging, and 20 degrees of timing is pretty good for 18 psi; so the water injection can't really improve on anything.
25 degrees timing with a little water might give you a very small gain. Going to 20 psi will be noticed in the mid RPMs, but acceleration will drop off as the revs climb (maybe even more so if you have just a little too much water).

MAT, I'm assuming is temp reading.

I would have to write a long essay to drive home the point about the relationship between exit temps, water/methanol injection rates, timing, turbo matching,etc, and it could go on and on.

The bottom line is that in the quest for more power, one always has to address the weakest link in the chain, and for you it's the turbo right now, and maybe your air metering device.
It would take alot of effort to address your questions, and yet it wouldn't do you any good.

 

Thanks TurboTommy I appreciate what help you are willing to give me. You say that it won't give me much of a power gain because the turbo is maxed but I have read that some people dissagree with you. I did not say that to try and argue that point with you though. From what I have read even if I do not get much of a power gain from water injection It should still help to put less strain on the engine. While I did not make note of it earlier in the thread I also see water injection as a way to help with the strain I am putting on my engines by running it beyond what it was designed for.

When I typed MAT I almost went back and changed it because I thought somebody might not know what I was talking about. Yes it is a temp reading the Tec3 uses to help with its reading for fuel delivery. The Tec3 is a MAP based engine management system. I mention that because you say there might be an inadequacy with my air metering device and I would like to know what made you come to that conclusion. You also mention about having to much water up top with the Tec3 I have the ability to run water injection exactly as if it was fuel injection. I have a 3D table that is based on RPM and MAP that I can set a duty cycle to control a solenoid just like an injector.

Since you use water injection do you have a way of protecting your engine if the water injection were to fail besides a warning light?

 

TAzzman..you are set with your Tec3..very nice....make sure you have a 100 psi plus pump ..but you know this allready....looking forward to your results..plese let us know..you have a lot of great info here..I do suggest howver that you do inject after the IC hte only mutipor injection I would suggest would be with 2 pumps or a very high pressure pmp and if you do muti port the best way I see in is at the begining of the intake runners NOT at end close to injectors..giving more time for evaporation..that would be my favourite if the amount in each nozzle is evern and well controlled..Is till think a 100 psi and even a 150 psi would be enough for 4 nozzles....for propper atomization...another way I like would be finding the most even air distribuiting spot in the intake manifold and tap a nozzle there or maybe 2 not too close and slightly angled to follow the pattern of airflow.....just not too eager to drill my intake......
Anyway I think you will do well having that Tec3...

 

Thanks Darius I kind of figured you didn't know the capabilities of the Tec3. I am still not sure what I want to do yet I am worried about tuning to take advantage of the water injection and then having a failure and not having any protection against that. I am curious how much the water actually cools the air in the intake because from what I have read the real cooling is suppose to happen in the combustion chamber. I will keep you posted on how things go

 

everything you ever wanted to know about water/alcohol injection for a turbocharged car and plenty of people willing to help you out!

SMC makes a great kit for about $300 with an alcohol level light for inside the car, ability to vary the rpm the injectors kick in etc...

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/for...?s=&forumid=14