KuHL 951

After a long dispute with the PO of my 86 951 I need some help. I'm afraid the promised records for all the claimed upgrades and repairs will never be supplied. My main concern is the claimed Turbo S upgrade performed 2K miles ago. The PO stated it cost him about $2500 along with some other repairs. Is there any less labor intensive way to determine if it is a K26/8 without dismantling the entire intake/exhaust? The reason I ask is the chip set turned out to be Weltmeister, not the Autothority as assumed. The car runs strong except for a weird shuddering/slipping? at the upper end of boost (1.9+ bar). The wastegate is shimmed, test pipe installed, injectors and FPR appear OEM. I assume a programmed chipset is in order for K26/8 turbo.

I will be taking him to small claims court and really don't know what $$$ damage to shoot for as to the value of good records, warranties, and any contradictions I might find. I do believe the claimed work has been done but I think the records were lost by his wife; he has stopped even returning my calls in the hopes that I will just go away...I think not!

Steve

turbo944

The Turbo S upgrade should have included the DME and KLR from one and they are 28 pin versus 24 pin chips in your vehicle (if it was done right). Custom aftermarket chips for that turbo could have been substituted though.

KuHL 951

What would be the negative symptoms or driving characteristics if the PO just upgraded to the K26/8 without the matched chipset/mapping? I don't believe Weltmeister sells any chip other than the "milder" CARB legal version and does not provide equipment specific custom programming. I could be wrong though. My A/F meter seems to say I'm OK through the full boost range.

Any suggestions for the best/easiest way to identify the turbo model? Are the hotside/coldside clearly marked?

Thanks, sorry if I sound like a ********...the 951 is still pretty new to me.

Sam Lin

All you'd need to do is pull the intake manifold for a clear look at the turbo, it's really not that difficult, like 5 min. You'll need new gaskets to replace it though, and might as well do vacuum lines while you're in there.

Sam

kasturbo

My Autothority chips that I bought from weltmeister had there sticker over top of the Autothority sticker. Just peel it off to check.

Edit: or was it Winward that put the extra sticker on. Sorry I can't remember who I got them from. Either way check that.

I'm not trying to be a dick here, but I don't understand why you are suing the guy. Did I miss the story somewhere?

KuHL 951

Kevin'
I'll check under the chip sticker, that's interesting.

You ask why do I need legal recourse? The seller is a CPA, told me he was "****" about the receipts and maintenance records, said the pile was "this thick" (insert fish story) but he needed to get them out of his shed which would take a week or so. So far the only receipt I've got is the Weltmeister chips and a new cat when it wouldn't pass smog. All the info concerning shop service, belt changes, turbo upgrade, instructions for the $1500 stereo, receipts/warranties for wheels/tires/Konis/etc he never was able to find. I feel that he misrepresented the entire sale if he knew this in advance. I have no intention of selling the car but the value with this minimal history has been reduced.

He's really a nice guy, owns 3 other Porsches, lives very well, agreed to provide receipts and records before the sale (in front of witness); if he later found out the records were accidently thrown out I think he should have been man enough to tell me and we could work backwards and try to obtain duplicates from the shops or suppliers. Instead he refuses to return messages and I don't even know where any of the work was done. This has been going on since early October

I buy and sell at least 3 cars a year and have never been burned like this or cheated a buyer before...bottom line is I just want the critical info on the car. Maybe all the works been done, maybe not, how will I know without a paper trail of some kind?

I probably won't get a cent out of him...if I find out he misrepresented the turbo upgrade issue he's going to have to do something to make up for it.

The way I see it I have three choices:
1. Walk away and lick my wounds;
2. Take him to SC Court;
3 Toss a grenade into his Koi pond.

turbo944

Honestly, I was reading something the other day about the "records". Look up these parts costs, get a PPI and see what the mechanic thinks the CURRENT condition of a car is in. Doesn't matter how many records exist, if the work wasn't done right and the car is currently in sorry shape, it may still not be worth buying. If the mechanic feels the car is in great shape, has no real problems, etc. then you're good to go. Things the mechanic finds wrong are points for negotiating the purchase price, but records it was felt really didn't add a lot of value to a car. I guess in many ways I agree, however having some records of how meticulous an owner was can add a lot of peace of mind.

That said, how possible is it that he had the records and someone went through and threw them out? It is possible. My parents do it to each other throwing out important things occasionally. Heck, I have my stuff that is stored there in a totally different area with basically a "hands off" sign there so my stuff doesn't disappear. I "know" where a lot of things are in my house, but that doesn't mean that someone hasn't moved them in the interim. If you start hounding him hard, he's likely to get gunshy about you calling over and over. The PPI should have revealed a lot and looking at current prices should tell you a lot. Instructions for the stereo should be fairly easy to obtain online if you're not sure how to use it (many offer them there in pdf format that I've seen). A visual inspection of other items he says have been done can often be verified or disproven. Until you can really show that he's delibarately lied to you about the car and if he honestly didn't know, you are back to caveot emptor, "let the buyer beware".

Discover what you can on your own to see what's there and what's not. Then, if things aren't right, pursue action then if you feel its worth the time. It may not be worth even going to small claims court over. If you would just like to find the receipts of anything he has left, if he doesn't answer his phone, I'd *politely* drop by his place one Saturday if it's not too far off and nicely ask him about them. Stay the nice guy until you have to be otherwise. Lots more flies with honey rather than vinegar. I'll say that at times you have to be the bad guy, but otherwise being nice usually helps.

As for the DME/KLR issue, the bigger turbo needs less fuel down low (boost comes on a few hundred rpm later) and up high it would run lean because the chips for the stock turbo would drop off fuel for it while the 26/8 would still be chugging boost. If the chips have serial numbers on them, the manufacturer should be able to tell you what they are for. Unless you have the later DME/KLR, they would have to be custom chips and probably not right off the shelf (although they probably have a map for them around there, they probably don't sell many that way).

TurboTommy

I can only comment on the chip issue; I had Weltmeister chips way back. Except for the physical differences between model years (the pin#), there is no different mapping between Turbo S and non-S. You are, however, supposed to have a 3 bar FPR that goes with the chips and the shimmed wastegate.

2+2

If what Thomas says is true that there is no difference in mapping between the S and non-S Welts., I would yank those out immediately and get some proper S chips in there.... assuming you can verify 26/8. Also, check the FPR as the 3 bar should have a different number than stock.

KuHL 951

Thanks to all for the great info and help. I'll try and confirm the 26/8 and FPR this weekend if I can get an intake gasket in time. I also recall reading something about a simplfied vacumn routing used on the 88+ turbos. Does anyone have a link to this info? If I have the intake off and redo vac lines that would be a good time to do it. Anything else I should address while the intake is off? Do I assume that the stock injectors are suitable with the Turbo-S set-up, re-mapped chips, and 3-bar FPR. This is a weekend car but I don't want to start having head gasket failures, driveablity issues, and the usual death spiral caused by lack of knowledge and the quest for more power. I have a friends 951 with the 26/6, chips, and 3-bar FPR and my car definitely pulls harder but seems to suffer some kind of fuel issues at both ends of the boost cycle. Lag is more prevalent on mine but builds to 1.9 (stock gauge) much faster. I'll borrow his FPR this weekend and see if that takes care of the upper end shudder. Chips are the next thing I guess.
Again, thanks for all the help.

Steve

turbo944

Check your idle stabilizer while you're in there. At the least, take it off and clean it out. Carb or throttle body cleaner and a lot of people say it takes about a minute of spraying for all the gunk to come out. Replace if you think it's time.

Here is the changed vacuum diagram if you are running an MBC as you'll notice that it has no cycling valve in the diagram now as you don't need it once you run another form of boost control.

KuHL 951

Andrew,
Thanks a lot, I think that's the vac diagram I was looking for. Between that and the 9 pages of links starting with the one below, I might figure all this out before I die of old age.

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Noreaster1.jpg

Steve

Flight_951

I may have posted the above diagram in a different thread. (It's a slightly revised version than what I had found previously -- includes the T locations but also uses the stock damper too.) My car's an 89, and I'm not the original owner, so I could only map out the vacuum lines that I had to replace with Lindsey's kit. Works well for me.

For the top end miss, I'd suggest checking or even replacing the spark plugs first. At 14-15psi the stock heat range seems better for street driving. IIRC, the gap should be .028 to.032. (I know I'm at .028, one range colder NGKs, at 17-18psi.)

The fuel injectors should be the same for 86 and 89.

Oddjob

You can check for the data plate on the turbo compressor housing by removing the airbox. You might have to move some of the intake vacuum lines and boot to get a clear view, but certainly dont have to remove the intake manifold.

Its an aluminum plate with blue trim on it and has 2 or 3 lines of KKK and Porsche part numbers stamped on it. The Porsche part number is a 951.... number and I recall the K26/6 ends in -02 and the K26/8 ends in -03. I also think both models are just stamped "K26" on the plate.