Bmuldoon

I'm trying to keep an open mind as to the process etc but the last thing I want is for any corners to be cut. Ultimately I was promised flawless panels with a factory quality paint job on the entire car. I'm only judging from the pictures here but I feel like the tape work isn't great, certain trim pieces haven't been removed (gas door, black door trim) etc. I don't exactly know what goes into the process but my gut says that prepping the entire car, masking off the hatch, door areas and engine bay will allow you to apply primer to the entire shell. This "partial" approach seems somewhat random. I may be completely overreacting here but feel free to chime in.

951and944S

Got home where my all my saved files are, got almost done with a looooong reply and sensed my laptop was going to crash.
Hurried up and hit 'post' and figured I'd follow up later on last question that I missed.
RL error, "please make message shorter than 50,000 characters....!?!?!

I was nowhere near even 1K.

Had to move files from laptop to thumb drive then to my new Ryzen desktop.

So...here goes.....AGAIN...!

Shouldn't the black trim on the door be removed?
Unless I'm missing something in the pics, the only black I see is the vertical window guide and that's painted on.

Shouldn't the gas cap be removed?
Yes, unless they are planning to remove it later for some reason.
And....assuming you meant the filler door, if they leave that paint original inside there, there will be a few mils thickness difference between new and old paint at the intersection that you will be able to feel.

Was the primer applied in a booth (almost looks like it was from a can - maybe I'm wrong here?)
As long as the panels were cleaned with a prep solvent, tacked off with a tack cloth and the environment in the area doesn't have wind blowing particles and dust, it's not really a problem for primer.
What has you worried about the spray can look is the black that is on the gray....and that IS spray paint.
There is a professional product for this step that is a charcoal like dust that's applied on cured primer with a pad like the foam that comes with a can of auto wax.
I use spray paint because it's just my preference but I would expect a pro shop charging this kind of money would have professional level product on hand, but..., it may just be their preference too.
It will all be sanded away and is called a "guide coat" for the reasons explained by this picture of a track car I was painting.
It allows you to detail your sanding process in defining a car's body lines.
In the pic, the lower 1/4 still has the guide coat but you can see how I am trying to sharpen the car's natural body line by wet sanding up to (and not on top or over) the peak of the panel's line stamping.
Same with the arch around the wheel.
I use a 12" wooden stick flat on the panel similar to a ruler.


Will the wheel wells be primed/painted?
If you mean the plastic liner, then unless they come up with some kind of killer masking that I have never heard of, then yes, there will be paint and overspray on them.
There are some liquid sprayable masking products that later wash off with water.
Maybe they plan on using that..?
If they do, then they're pretty much going to have to mask the fender itself from getting this product on it or paint will not stick where it was sprayed.
I do fenders off,

There are some things that concern me now but I will only post if you want me to answer freely, otherwise, I'll just answer your questions.

T

Bmuldoon

Thanks for your response!! Please do express your concerns freely - I have a call with him in the morning and definitely want to address anything that is amiss.

For tomorrow's call:

1. Explain to me your "guide coat" process.
2. Please confirm the plastic fender liners will be removed prior to painting
3. What are the plans for painting inside the fuel door. When will this be removed?
4. When will stone-chip be applied during the process?
5. FEEL FREE TO ADD TO THE LIST (this guy at the shop definitely loves hearing from me...)

If the pic below is the window guide that is "painted" on then I think we are in OK shape on that point - he did mention repainting this a satan black when I spoke with him last week. I always thought it was a removable part and didn't want him masking around it.

951and944S

Well, they didn't mask your door handle or mirror mounting holes for the first thing.
Unless they removed it for the pics but I'd highly doubt it. You have to repower the window motor to mask and remove masking from the inside just to have access.
Can't be done with window down.
!/4 holes for the mirror mount cannot be successfully masked 100% with take...., I'm famously known for using a dime for this particular hole -




T

951and944S

I don't know 100% from your pics but the primer looks like high build urethane primer, much lesser quality and product than epoxy (I thought you said they were using..?)
Epoxy primer has a gloss finish. That's one of the good features. (Among many). You think you have a panel straight, you throw your 1st coat of epoxy on and the shine shows any imperfections.
This is a hood after I have picked up my mess and cleaned my spray gun...., probably an hour after spraying, this shine will stay until it is scratched by sandpaper.
There is no reason to sand it before guide coat, the guide coat is a guide for sanding, so this primer (unless pics are misleading) is dull and was not sanded yet -



T

951and944S

I don't understand their order here for the rocker chip guard.
It's the 1st thing I take off.
They primed UP TO it which builds mil thickness then if they take off the chip guard to the factory coating on metal there will be a difference in material levels.
The product is not to be sprayed over metal, surface requires a 180 grit sanded surface to adhere to.....so why wouldn't you prime there under the old stuff while priming...?
If anything I take care of this 1st.



I make all metal work repairs, mild filler where needed, prime, cure, sand with 180 grit, apply chip guard texture.
What you do then is get a coat of primer on the chip guard withing the "recoat window" specified by the product.
This is the window where primer will chemically adhere (chip guard not fully cured)
If you wait until outside recommended window, you would have to introduce surface scratches for a mechanical adhesion.
You cannot do this because it is a texture with peaks and low spots and you will knock off the peaks and make the texture improper.


Once it is applied and a quick coat of epoxy is on it you have primer to body mechanical adhesion, then a mechanical adhesion of the chip guard on the primer, then chemical adhesion of next primer on top of chip guard.
You can cruise from there because all it takes later is a scuff pad with soap and water lightly sanded just enough to not take off texture high peaks and create a mechanical between primed chip guard and sealer or paint because this next product only requires 4-600 grit surface for adhesion.

T

Bmuldoon

Both good points. Apparently tomorrow she goes into "full primer" so it's a good opportunity to ask about the Epoxy vs. Urethane. From my reading the main differences between Epoxy and Urethane are:

1. Epoxy primers typically provide slightly better long term corrosion protection by creating a harder and more chemically resistant coating. Epoxies also provide excellent water resistance and minimal shrinkage.
2., Urethane primers have the advantage of speed. They tend to have better topcoat compatibility which allows your topcoat to be applied faster over the primer. You will see less topcoat dieback, which is a loss of gloss when fully cured, in a urethane primer versus an epoxy.
3. Urethane primers also hold up against UV rays much longer than epoxies. Epoxy primers will fade and yellow much quicker when exposed to UV rays because epoxy chemistry is broken down faster by high energy UV rays.

For tomorrow's call: (I wonder if all Porsche owners ask this many questions)

1. Explain to me your "guide coat" process. Is spray paint used?
2. Please confirm the plastic fender liners will be removed prior to painting
3. What are the plans for painting inside the fuel door. When will this be removed?
4. What paint are you using for the primer (Epoxy or Urethane). Please provide picture of paint used for primer and Glasurit Red
5. Please tape off door handle holes and power mirror holes
6. When will the existing Chip Guard be removed? Needs to be removed to bare metal if new CG is to be applied. (will talk through your steps above)

951and944S

Found a better pic of what the guide coat does, self explanatory.

Chip guard applied -


Base and clear, graphite metallic, side of car finished , that blue paper towel and box with masking paper is on a covered race car 10-15 feet away....



T

Bmuldoon

Very helpful. Thank you!

I'll be back tomorrow with more answers.

Thanks!

Bmuldoon

Had a good phone call with the shop owner yesterday. He reiterated that he does a lot of work on Ferrari's etc., has been doing these jobs for 30 years and that I won't be disappointed in the final product. I could tell he felt like his work was being criticized but I'm glad we were able to talk through everything.

1. Explain to me your "guide coat" process. Is spray paint used? (All primer work is done in the booth but yes, the black portion of the guide coat utilizes an aerosol powder and will be sanded off)
2. Please confirm the plastic fender liners will be removed prior to painting (Plastic liners from front wheel well have been removed - currently no liners exist in the rear wheel wells)
3. What are the plans for painting inside the fuel door. When will this be removed? (The fuel door will be removed and correctly painted along with the door jams)
4. What paint are you using for the primer (Epoxy or Urethane). Please provide picture of paint used for primer and Glasurit Red (He tells me he is using an epoxy/enamel primer that will harden prior to applying Glasurit Paint and Clear - pictures will be provided of paint used. Primer is PPG but Paint and Clear are Glasurit)
5. Please tape off door handle holes and power mirror holes (He said he would address)
6. When will the existing Chip Guard be removed? Needs to be removed to bare metal if new CG is to be applied. (After discussing this point, he said removing the existing chip guard entirely is unnecessary. "This is still as it was from the factory and is in great shape without any rust. The chip guard will be lightly scuffed, primer applied and then painted." He mentioned that there was no rust whatsoever and since the faded finish is the only weak point it doesn't make a lot of sense to completely remove and "try" to do is exactly as the factory had it.

951and944S

LOL, when you didn't post yesterday, I thought they had towed your car out of the shop and told you where to pick it up....!

Yes, the rear 1/4 panels have no removable liner and the rest sounds legit.
Admittedly, I've never heard of epoxy enamel primer but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist but then again, I don't or have ever used products from PPG.
They are a top 3 manufacturer but I always had access to DuPont is the real reason.
Epoxy primers state that they are "tintable" by using 10% or so of color so you get a jump start basing the color on your last application of primer but personally I never do this so I can't remember whether enamel is even compatible with epoxy in cure rates. Cannot comment further without research.
Currently, and for the last 10 years, I use BASF exclusively, who are the parent company of RM, LimCo, BASF and Glasurit.
All other body products, seam sealer, acid etching, epoxy primers, urethane sealers I use are all TrasStar.

The guide coat is available in aerosol and SEM is one of the manufacturers that supplies it.
I DO use their products for chemical wiping (SEM Solve) and all of their stuff is top rate.

On the rockers.....not a fan of explanation.
There is no way they can know if a previous repair was done prior to them having the car unless it is removed and inspected.
By this position, they are taking responsibility for someone else's work, if in fact, even the lower applied coating on a fender or the small portion behind the rear tire (mostly hidden under the diffuser) had a previous repair that they will never know without removal.

It's up to you whether you want to challenge this but I can post you pics the same car I showed so far, where at first appearance, and unknown to the owner until I showed him, that when I removed the chip guard, I uncovered a rusted out lower rocker that was so bad that I had to cut out and replace metal.....this was masked by the texture of the chip guard.

If this isn't done as part of the job, the price should be adjusted from the original quote if your original estimate was reflective of your vocal insistence that this was part of the job.

T

Bmuldoon

Ha - definitely don't want to be towing my car out in pieces. My mechanic also went over there yesterday with my laundry list of questions and complaints so the bodyshop owner was definitely a little frustrated by the time I called him. At any rate, I think the metal work and paint work has been fine. I've been assured that all of the correct prep/taping work will be done as well and having the additional pressure for perfection coming from my mechanic gives me a little more confidence. He said on the call yesterday that the car will be perfect when complete, if something isn't up to par - he will make sure it's addressed. And all of his work is warrantied for 15 years. *At the end of the day I don't own a body shop or know the ins and outs of the process so I can understand the defensive nature.

The one sticking point and I agree with you here is the chip guard on the rockers. I get that it will be additional work to remove but given my agreed upon quote I think it should be included. His explanation is that "it's in great shape, it's factory and there's really no reason to remove it. Even if it were to be removed it would never be exactly the same as it currently is." I think I'll give my mechanic a call and maybe he can press him on it. To your point, I just want to make sure we aren't avoiding it at the prospect of finding rust (shortcut).

951and944S

Absolutely...., ask the body guy (or use what he told you about it to your advantage) if he thought when he originally looked at the car to quote it, that there was a left front fender crumpled up like tin foil under the paint job...?
I commented on 1-2 crazy things I have seen other's do before I received a car.
So it's a win win for you.
If he says "no, I never would have thought somebody turned out that bad a quality of work"
Then ask how he knows whats under the rock guard.
If he says, "sure, we see shoddy work and correct it all the time"
Then he just admitted that there are high chances that your "shoddy work" wasn't just isolated and that he has no clue whether there's more to be uncovered.

Glad for you that you have the mechanic involved.
He probably has already had, and expects a longer term relationship with you and your car so he will represent you well.

T

Bmuldoon

Yeah I've been working with the mechanic for 2 years and he has always gone above and beyond with every job from parking brake to clutch etc. His communication and written documentation are literally the standard that I would hold any other shop against. So when he recommended this current shop I felt very comfortable knowing that my mechanic has a close relationship with the body shop owner. Just got off the phone with the mechanic, he was looking over my car earlier this morning (at the body shop) and reinforced everything we are saying above about the rockers and chip guard. Hopefully the next update will be a good one

Bmuldoon

Updated shots of the car with colored primer....