944crazy

I've been doing a bit of reading lately, and with the track work that I'm doing I think it's a good idea to upgrade the spindles and hubs on my '86 Turbo. However, I need to keep the early offset otherwise my wheels wont fit.

From what I've read, this is what I need to do:

Keep early control arms and tie rods
Use '87+ Turbo/S2 non m030 hubs and spindles
Use late front struts
Use camber tops

Will this set up still allow me to run up to -3 degrees of camber?

Does it matter if I get ABS or non ABS hubs and spindles?

Furthermore, it appears that the caliper bolt spacing is also different on the late hubs? So I'm guessing I'll need to do a brake upgrade at the same time as the '86 calipers won't bolt to '87+ spindles?

Humboldtgrin

The 951 strut spacing was 3.5" and the N/A 944 was 3" if I remember correctly. And I'm not sure if it will or will not work.

MAGK944

I’ve did exactly this a while back on my 86 951 in order to run the billet Racers Edge hubs. As well as the items you list you will need brake rotors as they fit differently (better) on the later hubs. The bolt spacing is different on the spindle to strut mount but that doesn’t matter as you are fitting later struts to match. Iirc the Brembos brake bolt spacing is the same, I cannot recal changing the brakes to 87+ but it was a while ago so I’ll let someone else chime in and confirm. I know na to turbo brake caliper spacing is different, maybe that why you are getting confused. You will need camber plates as you are loosing a bit of camber due to fitting the later spindle/strut on the early control arms. If you lock the bottom camber adjustment to maximum negative the camber plates should allow you a good range for the track. It’s definately a worthwhile upgrade.

944crazy

Awesome, thanks for the confirmation. I already have some ground control camber plates, so good to go on that front. How much camber are you running at the moment? And can you check your camber tops to see how much room you have left for more negative camber? (ie, does it look like you could run -3 degrees?)

If anyone could confirm that I can run my stock '86 Turbo calipers on late hubs with late rotors that would be great, as then I won't have do a brake swap just yet.

ian

Your stock 86 calipers will bolt up, have done this in the past, and plan on doing it again with my 924 GT(S) project.

Droops83

I converted to full late offset on my '86 and can confirm that the caliper bolt spacing is exactly the same, as is the strut bolt spacing for 951s (944 NA has narrower bolt spacing).

It also does not matter if you get '87+ hubs/spindles that actually have provisions for ABS or not, as the offset changes are present on both. The ABS hubs will have tone rings and the spindles have a bore for the wheel speed sensors, but that is the only difference.

However, when I first changed to the '87+ spindles and hubs, I attempted to use my then-current early offset steel arms and top-mount Ground Control camber plates, but I also had the shortened Ground control struts which didn't have slotted upper bolt holes for eccentrics and could only get about 1.5 degrees of negative camber, even with the camber plate adjustment maxed out. I knew that I could modify the upper holes to run eccentric bolts and get more camber, but I didn't like that idea because with heavy track use the eccentric bolts eventually slip no matter how tightly they are torqued, and the GC strut flanges lacked the supporting boss for the eccentric bolt head to butt up against, which would have made the problem worse.

Luckily for me, an inexpensive used set of late-offset Blaszak control arms came up for sale on Rennlist right around that time, and my geometry-correcting ball joints bolt right up to those! I also happened to have a pair of late-offset 16x8 phone dials, so it all worked out (no more rotating tires front to rear unless I go late offset out back as well, though).

I would like to know the experience of those who have actually run this configuration using factory-type struts with eccentric bolts.

944crazy

Interesting, I'm planning on getting a set of GAZ Gold Coilovers to suit late spindles...they appear to have the eccentric, so hopefully if I max that out, and my ground control bottom mount strut tops I'll be able to get enough camber.

I wonder if I could get GAZ to build my shocks using late bolt spacing, but early camber angle.

Droops83

There is no difference in bolt-spacing between any of the 951 and late 944/968 struts/spindles, only between early NA struts (with replaceable inserts) and the sealed later ones.

I'd have to take a close look at a factory-type strut and spindle to see exactly what the limitations are at the more "vertical" angle of the strut (as viewed from the front or rear of the car) when using the later spindles and narrower '86 control arms . . . . I have seen discussions here of grinding away some of the eccentric bolt flanges, perhaps someone with experience will chime in.

944crazy

Ahh, I see, so it's the width of the shock mount (20mm early vs 18mm late) that prevents me from using early shocks with late spindles?

Also, can anyone confirm that all late 944 hubs are the same, only the spindles are different between the n/a and the turbo/s2. So if I buy a set of late 944 n/a hubs, they will work with a set of late turbo/s2 spindles?

MAGK944

I’m not sure this is correct, the 86 951 is the odd man out being early offset so I’m almost certain it must have early bolt angle/spacing. Unfortunately I cannot confirm on my car as it’s now a hybrid early/late.

Yes the strut mount width is different as well as the spacing and angle of the bolt holes. Here’s a picture I’ve posted before where you can clearly see there is also a change of angle on the spindles early to late. Makes sense really since the later control arms pushed the spindles further outboard. I wished I’d measured that angle when I had them apart

(Apologies for the fuzzy iPhone pic)

Droops83

I have swapped struts between my '86 951 and '87 944S several times and the bolt hole spacing was the same. The factory part #s for the '86 and "87+ 951 strut assemblies are the same (951 343 031 05/032 05). The left-side spindle in your pic looks like it has the earlier NA bolt spacing, but you say it came off your '86 951? The early NA struts with replaceable inserts have the narrower 924-spec bolt spacing at the strut/spindle, while all of the sealed struts ('86 951 and most '87+ cars) have the later, wider bolt spacing for the strut/spindle.

However, the angle is absolutely different as shown in your pic---I checked in the factory manual, and it states that the kingpin inclination (same thing as steering axis inclination [SAI], angle of imaginary line from upper strut mount centerline through lower ball joint centerline from vertical as viewed from the front or rear of the car) has been increased by approx. 4 degrees to 20 degrees (page 40-05). Since the front camber specs are about the same, one has to assume that the angle of the late-offset spindle has been changed commensurately

Strut mounts are indeed different between early and late offset cars to accommodate the increased angle of the strut, but this is irrelevant if using aftermarket camber plates.

944crazy

So just as a conclusion to this thread, I ended up getting late n/a hubs and spindles because they were cheaper than turbo/s2 items but just as strong. The hubs are the same as the late turbo and s2 hubs, and therefore had the bigger bearings which I replaced with fresh ones. The spindles bolted up just fine to my existing struts, control arms and tie rods. I believe the only difference between the late n/a spindles that I bought, and late turbo/s2 items is the caliper mounts. In the case of my late n/a spindles they are 76mm spaced axial mounts.

For brakes, I got some 993 turbo/928 GTS big reds and cayenne 330mm rotors. I had centering rings and custom caliper adapters made for them as I couldn't find any vendors that sell adapters for this combination on late n/a spindles. In hindsight the extra cost of getting custom adapters offset the savings made by purchasing late n/a hubs and spindles instead of turbo/s2 items for which there are cheap adapters already available. If anyone wants the technical drawings for these adapters, just send me a PM.

As for the camber, I used Van's trick of adjusting the eccentrics while tilting the spindle in the air, and this, combined with my camber tops at full negative allowed me to get approximately -3 degree of camber each side, just as I had before changing spindles.

ealoken

Nice work. Thanks for good info

Adonay

Did you have to change tie rods to late offset with the 1986 control arms and late spindles? This is the last part i am going to need and i am stuck at the moment as i have no tie rods to measure with at hand .
My setup is 1986 arms, late NA hubs and spindles , Late NA struts that will be cut and koni inserted + new springs, manual steering rack. Big red calipers and cayenne 330 rotors

ealoken

Hi, Late spindle, early steering rack and tierods, and early arms. Thats my setup on 86 turbo.
KW V3 and 996gt2 brakes.

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