618.2whp @ 17psi
10-15-2017, 04:43 PM
#63
Race Car
10-16-2017, 02:57 AM
#64
Three Wheelin'
All of this leads to the question of whether it is worth it to continue with the 944/968 block at this power level. Personally, I am constrained by CA smog laws and my strict requirement of my car's ability to be driven to and from the track, and as such I am constrained to the 944-series engine. I have been in contact with Neil and Taylor at Performance Developments, and I am pleased to report that they are quite willing to work with someone like myself who is on a budget and is not shooting for the moon (I'd be happy with 400-ish HP from my 8V 2.5 while maintaining reliability during long track sessions on a hot day). I plan to send both my spare block and crankshaft/girdle for some key modifications.
But, it is apparent that the 944/968 block has its limitations (even if one discounts Patrick's woes of the past weekend), and much of the WTAC grid has embraced the notion of custom "billet" engine blocks to withstand that crazy amounts to boost thrown at them (I saw a feature about a Mitsubishi Evo running 74 PSI of boost and making 1238 whp!).
Now, I know that neither Patrick nor Rod are going for/making quite that kind of power, but it does question the notion of whether it is worth it to attempt to push the ancient 944/968 block to these extremes. The basic "open deck" architecture guarantees that in addition to its inherent limitations, the 944/968 engine block will always be physically large and heavy for a 4-cylinder, even when compared to a more modern, closed deck design as the VAG 1.8T (which is an iron block!).
The point is, other WTAC competitors are freely transplanting various engines into other platforms without any qualms or rules limitations, so why aren't you guys doing the same? I know that all of us here love our 951s and what they offer (I am a vehement defender of this at POC/PCA events) and we are united by this, but at a certain level (WTAC) there are limitations, and other alternatives should be considered (LSx, 1.8T, Audi 5cyl, etc).
Sorry, just my $0.02.
But, it is apparent that the 944/968 block has its limitations (even if one discounts Patrick's woes of the past weekend), and much of the WTAC grid has embraced the notion of custom "billet" engine blocks to withstand that crazy amounts to boost thrown at them (I saw a feature about a Mitsubishi Evo running 74 PSI of boost and making 1238 whp!).
Now, I know that neither Patrick nor Rod are going for/making quite that kind of power, but it does question the notion of whether it is worth it to attempt to push the ancient 944/968 block to these extremes. The basic "open deck" architecture guarantees that in addition to its inherent limitations, the 944/968 engine block will always be physically large and heavy for a 4-cylinder, even when compared to a more modern, closed deck design as the VAG 1.8T (which is an iron block!).
The point is, other WTAC competitors are freely transplanting various engines into other platforms without any qualms or rules limitations, so why aren't you guys doing the same? I know that all of us here love our 951s and what they offer (I am a vehement defender of this at POC/PCA events) and we are united by this, but at a certain level (WTAC) there are limitations, and other alternatives should be considered (LSx, 1.8T, Audi 5cyl, etc).
Sorry, just my $0.02.
10-16-2017, 05:20 AM
#65
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Chris (and others), you bring up some salient points. However still too early to have any real clues as to what happened, why it happened and what the solution is. May just be dumb luck and this old block was somehow affected structurally years ago. Until we pull it out of the car we are only guessing. Even then, it may just be a slightly more educated guess.
In terms of pushing these motors well beyond what they were designed for, absolutely true. But both Rod and Gustaf have run similar power levels in their motors and not suffered in the same way that mine did. Gustaf's block was actually also supplied by PD. Rod's as far as I know is a 3ltr block with MiD sleeves supplied by Chris White. While they haven't been totally without issue, as far as I'm aware, they haven't had any block cracks. They both run larger headstuds. One has MiD, the other a Deckplate. So there are some points in common and some that differentiate. I believe they both boost their motors higher than we did mine.
Also Sean B put together a 16v motor that is in his daily driven road car and also sees some successful tracktime. This is with a stock S2 head, valves, cams and headstuds. Sean basically just has to change the headgasket before each season. He also runs more boost than me.
Yes, I realise that it's not just boost levels, but peak torque and cylinder pressure. As we made a lot of power at low boost then yes, perhaps 16psi was equivalent to say Sean's 20psi or more.
Yes, billet blocks/heads are the game de jour. Certainly at WTAC, however they are not without their problems. Oiling and expansion rates seem to present issues for some of the teams. I was scratching my head at some of the boost pressures these guys are running. One team in our pit garage with an Evo and fairly new billet block was telling me that they run it conservatively at only 35psi for longevity. He was saying at that boost they see over 600whp. He didn't believe me when I told him what we saw on the dyno. His 'gate spring pressure is 25psi. Said ours was 10psi and we made 505whp just running through that. We were both shaking our heads lol.
Such a shame we couldn't represent on the weekend. Looking at the times for our class, the bar was raised very high. Without new spec Aero package and Sequential gearbox we would have been fighting for 3rd place at best I think. Probably more like 4th. 1000bhp cars with full SQ shifters just have too much of an advantage. Still, it would have been nice to try all the same.
So more information needs to be gleaned before making any commitments. Even before that, I need to start saving up again. Can't do much without $$$.
In terms of pushing these motors well beyond what they were designed for, absolutely true. But both Rod and Gustaf have run similar power levels in their motors and not suffered in the same way that mine did. Gustaf's block was actually also supplied by PD. Rod's as far as I know is a 3ltr block with MiD sleeves supplied by Chris White. While they haven't been totally without issue, as far as I'm aware, they haven't had any block cracks. They both run larger headstuds. One has MiD, the other a Deckplate. So there are some points in common and some that differentiate. I believe they both boost their motors higher than we did mine.
Also Sean B put together a 16v motor that is in his daily driven road car and also sees some successful tracktime. This is with a stock S2 head, valves, cams and headstuds. Sean basically just has to change the headgasket before each season. He also runs more boost than me.
Yes, I realise that it's not just boost levels, but peak torque and cylinder pressure. As we made a lot of power at low boost then yes, perhaps 16psi was equivalent to say Sean's 20psi or more.
Yes, billet blocks/heads are the game de jour. Certainly at WTAC, however they are not without their problems. Oiling and expansion rates seem to present issues for some of the teams. I was scratching my head at some of the boost pressures these guys are running. One team in our pit garage with an Evo and fairly new billet block was telling me that they run it conservatively at only 35psi for longevity. He was saying at that boost they see over 600whp. He didn't believe me when I told him what we saw on the dyno. His 'gate spring pressure is 25psi. Said ours was 10psi and we made 505whp just running through that. We were both shaking our heads lol.
Such a shame we couldn't represent on the weekend. Looking at the times for our class, the bar was raised very high. Without new spec Aero package and Sequential gearbox we would have been fighting for 3rd place at best I think. Probably more like 4th. 1000bhp cars with full SQ shifters just have too much of an advantage. Still, it would have been nice to try all the same.
So more information needs to be gleaned before making any commitments. Even before that, I need to start saving up again. Can't do much without $$$.
10-16-2017, 07:21 AM
#66
There is a point past which the boundaries cannot be pushed this side of sanity, and reaching them in a proper manner (and that means not just turning up the boost like a donkey) is already an achievement. Beyond that point, still speaking of "limitations" when we are talking 700+hp figures with such large 4 cylinder all alloy engines is becoming slightly ridiculous.
Among all high end builds Patrick's car should probably be the most relevant as it still uses what essentially are the factory suspension, engine architecture and transmission. Some other projects are probably technically at least as much interesting, but the cars have been so much modified they have become one-off prototypes, and there may be a point where stickers for fake headlights might be used, like is done in Nascar, trying to remind people what cars they originally were, or worse, what they are supposed to be. If people enjoy it that's fine, but please don't call them a "944/968 turbo" anymore.
I think it is great that Patrick has kept most of the components that still make his car a "944 turbo", and with all he has experienced and spent it would make sense not to get burned any further pretending to reach hazy limitations that almost always end up in tear$.
Among all high end builds Patrick's car should probably be the most relevant as it still uses what essentially are the factory suspension, engine architecture and transmission. Some other projects are probably technically at least as much interesting, but the cars have been so much modified they have become one-off prototypes, and there may be a point where stickers for fake headlights might be used, like is done in Nascar, trying to remind people what cars they originally were, or worse, what they are supposed to be. If people enjoy it that's fine, but please don't call them a "944/968 turbo" anymore.
I think it is great that Patrick has kept most of the components that still make his car a "944 turbo", and with all he has experienced and spent it would make sense not to get burned any further pretending to reach hazy limitations that almost always end up in tear$.
10-16-2017, 11:33 AM
#67
Race Car
There is a point past which the boundaries cannot be pushed this side of sanity, and reaching them in a proper manner (and that means not just turning up the boost like a donkey) is already an achievement. Beyond that point, still speaking of "limitations" when we are talking 700+hp figures with such large 4 cylinder all alloy engines is becoming slightly ridiculous.
Among all high end builds Patrick's car should probably be the most relevant as it still uses what essentially are the factory suspension, engine architecture and transmission. Some other projects are probably technically at least as much interesting, but the cars have been so much modified they have become one-off prototypes, and there may be a point where stickers for fake headlights might be used, like is done in Nascar, trying to remind people what cars they originally were, or worse, what they are supposed to be. If people enjoy it that's fine, but please don't call them a "944/968 turbo" anymore.
I think it is great that Patrick has kept most of the components that still make his car a "944 turbo", and with all he has experienced and spent it would make sense not to get burned any further pretending to reach hazy limitations that almost always end up in tear$.
Among all high end builds Patrick's car should probably be the most relevant as it still uses what essentially are the factory suspension, engine architecture and transmission. Some other projects are probably technically at least as much interesting, but the cars have been so much modified they have become one-off prototypes, and there may be a point where stickers for fake headlights might be used, like is done in Nascar, trying to remind people what cars they originally were, or worse, what they are supposed to be. If people enjoy it that's fine, but please don't call them a "944/968 turbo" anymore.
I think it is great that Patrick has kept most of the components that still make his car a "944 turbo", and with all he has experienced and spent it would make sense not to get burned any further pretending to reach hazy limitations that almost always end up in tear$.
It's the tub that homologates it in the "sprit" of the rule.
Porsche did the same thing in factory racing.
Some of the 944s were basically tube chassis with a roof and floor, nothing is factory past the firewall.
Not much of this kin to a street 911 but the tub is still 911.
Agree that Patricks car is "closer" to what would be familiar to me as "stock" though.
T
10-16-2017, 12:02 PM
#68
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His car is pretty damn quick with out real aero mods. When and if he decides to continue building it, and gets some CFD done. it'll be much quicker and hey, those parts might be up for sale.
Pretty common to see that with WTAC cars after new aero is made and developed.
Rod is in Pro class where you can do what you want but need to retain the centre of the car, firewall up to the suspension points.
Yes Rods is basically a tube frame with all CF body.
He alone, with his own money has developed a billet block that now anyone can purchase. A carbon fibre & titanium torque tube probably can get manufactured if theres enough interest. Proved that you can get 800+hp out of a MID sleeved block with nothing flash about the pistons and rods, just the Michael Mount bearing mod on the rods.
I say he's done us all a favour at his expense.
10-16-2017, 12:20 PM
#69
I too greatly appreciate all his work and the work of others
If you look at it this way at WTAC. Patric is in open class which requires factory mounting points for suspension to be used.
His car is pretty damn quick with out real aero mods. When and if he decides to continue building it, and gets some CFD done. it'll be much quicker and hey, those parts might be up for sale.
Pretty common to see that with WTAC cars after new aero is made and developed.
Rod is in Pro class where you can do what you want but need to retain the centre of the car, firewall up to the suspension points.
Yes Rods is basically a tube frame with all CF body.
He alone, with his own money has developed a billet block that now anyone can purchase. A carbon fibre & titanium torque tube probably can get manufactured if theres enough interest. Proved that you can get 800+hp out of a MID sleeved block with nothing flash about the pistons and rods, just the Michael Mount bearing mod on the rods.
I say he's done us all a favour at his expense.
His car is pretty damn quick with out real aero mods. When and if he decides to continue building it, and gets some CFD done. it'll be much quicker and hey, those parts might be up for sale.
Pretty common to see that with WTAC cars after new aero is made and developed.
Rod is in Pro class where you can do what you want but need to retain the centre of the car, firewall up to the suspension points.
Yes Rods is basically a tube frame with all CF body.
He alone, with his own money has developed a billet block that now anyone can purchase. A carbon fibre & titanium torque tube probably can get manufactured if theres enough interest. Proved that you can get 800+hp out of a MID sleeved block with nothing flash about the pistons and rods, just the Michael Mount bearing mod on the rods.
I say he's done us all a favour at his expense.
10-16-2017, 12:53 PM
#70
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There's a secret going around that if you whisper "bob norwood" into your air filter you gain another 500hp.
But for those who don't follow WTAC. There's a lot of companies that use WTAC for product development.
For example the MCA hammer head s13. MCA suspension build the car, running their suspension setup they developed. I think it was last year or the year before they ran their lower range in their car to prove that their lower range suspension can still do the job as their gold range.
Theres Brypar who develop aftermarket brakes, rotors, uprights + more for track cars. (all direct bolt on) they don't have their own car but develop parts for this event in particular.
Theres also big sponsors like Link ecu, Royal purple oil, Motul, Turbosmart to name a few
But for those who don't follow WTAC. There's a lot of companies that use WTAC for product development.
For example the MCA hammer head s13. MCA suspension build the car, running their suspension setup they developed. I think it was last year or the year before they ran their lower range in their car to prove that their lower range suspension can still do the job as their gold range.
Theres Brypar who develop aftermarket brakes, rotors, uprights + more for track cars. (all direct bolt on) they don't have their own car but develop parts for this event in particular.
Theres also big sponsors like Link ecu, Royal purple oil, Motul, Turbosmart to name a few
10-16-2017, 02:00 PM
#71
K I have to ask....Sorry Patrick don't mean to derail the thread but who is this Bob Norwood I keep reading about? LOL I have tried to search on my own but this one is a mystery to me.
There's a secret going around that if you whisper "bob norwood" into your air filter you gain another 500hp.
But for those who don't follow WTAC. There's a lot of companies that use WTAC for product development.
For example the MCA hammer head s13. MCA suspension build the car, running their suspension setup they developed. I think it was last year or the year before they ran their lower range in their car to prove that their lower range suspension can still do the job as their gold range.
Theres Brypar who develop aftermarket brakes, rotors, uprights + more for track cars. (all direct bolt on) they don't have their own car but develop parts for this event in particular.
Theres also big sponsors like Link ecu, Royal purple oil, Motul, Turbosmart to name a few
But for those who don't follow WTAC. There's a lot of companies that use WTAC for product development.
For example the MCA hammer head s13. MCA suspension build the car, running their suspension setup they developed. I think it was last year or the year before they ran their lower range in their car to prove that their lower range suspension can still do the job as their gold range.
Theres Brypar who develop aftermarket brakes, rotors, uprights + more for track cars. (all direct bolt on) they don't have their own car but develop parts for this event in particular.
Theres also big sponsors like Link ecu, Royal purple oil, Motul, Turbosmart to name a few
10-16-2017, 07:15 PM
#72
Bob Norwood is a well known builder in the US from years ago that had a specialty shop called Norwood Performance (Norwood Autocraft). They built a number of cars including two called "Doom" - supposedly because the founder of the video game "Doom" had them made. These cars were supposed to make over 700 HP - possibly 1000 hp - with a 944 variant engine. But the cars were stolen never to be seen again and the rest is internet lore.
10-16-2017, 07:26 PM
#73
Race Car
[QUOTE=Paulyy;14538808]If you look at it this way at WTAC. Patric is in open class which requires factory mounting points for suspension to be used.
His car is pretty damn quick with out real aero mods. When and if he decides to continue building it, and gets some CFD done. it'll be much quicker and hey, those parts might be up for sale.
QUOTE]
You really believe that aero changes will make Patrick's car much faster within the constraints of his class? What type of changes and how much faster?
I was under the impression it was just minor adjustments at this point and that his aero mods are already pretty drastic compared to most track 944s.
It sounds like the traditional transmission shifter is a biggest hurdle after a reliable power plant.
This is all really really expensive stuff. Sometimes you gotta ask yourself if you are still having fun. Sometimes the funnest competitions can be the "low buck" approach (ie. racing in a much lower class).
But I don't know how easy it would be to change directions. I just hate to think of the level of financial commitment required to race at Patricks level, without the support of a major sponsor. As I understand it, he barely even drives the car.
His car is pretty damn quick with out real aero mods. When and if he decides to continue building it, and gets some CFD done. it'll be much quicker and hey, those parts might be up for sale.
QUOTE]
You really believe that aero changes will make Patrick's car much faster within the constraints of his class? What type of changes and how much faster?
I was under the impression it was just minor adjustments at this point and that his aero mods are already pretty drastic compared to most track 944s.
It sounds like the traditional transmission shifter is a biggest hurdle after a reliable power plant.
This is all really really expensive stuff. Sometimes you gotta ask yourself if you are still having fun. Sometimes the funnest competitions can be the "low buck" approach (ie. racing in a much lower class).
But I don't know how easy it would be to change directions. I just hate to think of the level of financial commitment required to race at Patricks level, without the support of a major sponsor. As I understand it, he barely even drives the car.
Last edited by Noahs944; 10-16-2017 at 08:51 PM.
10-16-2017, 07:26 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
That's the best pic I've seen of one of those Doom open top 'Specials'. Shame it's lost and only folklore still exists. Wonder what they boosted to make the 700+ bhp. Ours made over that with 16psi. I'm guessing the Doom motors might have been double that. Can't even remember if they were 8 or 16v...I think 16v.
10-16-2017, 10:16 PM
#75
Pro
Sorry to hear about the fire Patrick...I can't imagine the pain and frustration you are going through at the moment. What a terrible run of bad luck you have had. Like everyone else on here, I'm rooting for you, and hope you can come back from this.
There was a whole donor 968 engine for sale on Gumtree in Adelaide not too long ago...can't seem to find it now though.
There was a whole donor 968 engine for sale on Gumtree in Adelaide not too long ago...can't seem to find it now though.