TonyG

Keith

I have (2) 25.5mm TurboS torsion bars in my garage that I picked up tonight. I can't imagine that you could delete more than a pound max (ea.) or so by gun drilling it. It's not that heavy to begin with. Are the Turbo S torsion bars hollow? (maybe that explains it).

TonyG

Robby

Matt H- You GAIN weight w/helper springs- not a whole lot, but several pounds a side- I assume you're referring to full coil-overs, in which case, the weight should be pretty close- maybe a little lighter- I've never picked up all the stuff required to have full CO's for a 951, but am told it is slightly lighter- a couple pounds- but, compared to hollow T-bars, it's even less, IF at all- we're REALLY starting to split hairs at that point... Karl is recommending I stay w/T-bars alone OR w/helpers, so I'm really leaning toward this direction- Tony has been swaying me towards full CO's- it's not that I don't believe him, it's more a case of not having driven any of these damn things set-up like that & having heard so many negative things about them- actually, I've never even sat in a 951 w/ANY susp mods other than sway &/or strut brace, so...

Tony, etc- As for this statement:
"when given a chance to shave ~10lbs (probably all they will save, both sides combined)"
I was referring to the T-bars themseleves- as in 10lbs, BOTH sides combined... I fully realize the AC weighs >10lbs- more like ~40lbs- the power steering would weigh >10lbs too... I'm saying that you are LOSING things when doing this- things that some of us consider to be at least semi-important. I've always thought the 944 group was funny in this regard too- many regard their cars as LIGHT compared to others, but they're really not- for their size, they are heavy cars- a Turbo S weighs 3160lbs w/full tank- plain & simple- C&D & R&T weighed them as being close to 3200lbs CURB(!)-> 3350+... I weighed mine when I bought it- 3160. anyway, many people like to think their 944s are light, compared to most cars, & then say, "...and, I can remove my AC, spare, power steering, rear seat, etc....& lose even MORE...." not to mention their remarks about the seats- the funny thing is, that all the other street cars out there have these items too & many of them would lose even MORE weight than a 951 would, by deleting these same items- most cars have rear seats that weigh >35lbs total (I'm referring to split-rear backs w/all seatbelts, bottom, etc), AC's that weigh more than ours (it's a small car- didn't need much of an AC), & DEFINATELY spares that weigh more (our's weighs 29lbs- many street cars have full-size spares- a stupid concept IMO), as well as similarly weighted front seats... anyway, I want to remove as much weight as I can w/out losing things I want or need...

I'm really not all that stuck on hollow T-bars since I need to do something now, one way or the other- all I did was post whether or not anyone knew where to find them...

BTW- Tony- I was NOT referring to you (in my previous post OR THIS post) by mentioned the removal of power steering or AC, etc- I'm just speaking in general terms here... I know you do a lot more track stuff anyway & could realize the extra potential of such savings in a more useful environment...

Robby

Tony- if you're looking at the Turbo S bars, IF they are hollow, they SHOULD be noticeable- large holes in the ends- I've never seen them outside the car I don't think- I KNOW I picked some 951 T-bars up long ago, but am not sure if they were Turbo S or not- they felt ~10lbs each IIRC- not an incredible amount to begi with- the Performance Products catalog has pics of the Welts- page 21 in the latest one - Fall/Winter 2003- if you get a chance to compare.... Not sure the stock bars look a whole lot like these & it IS possible, I guess, that Turbo S bars were lighter, but... Do you have a bathroom scale you can throw them on? That would be kind of cool... not a big deal either way, but....

Also- I can't tell you ANYTHING about why one would be "better" than the other, but, Karl at Racer's Edge told me that the reason he's sort of against it is the standard mount breakage prob- he says that the immediate, instantaneous, impacts on street cars are MUCH higher, due to potholes, expansion joints, etc, than tracks cars & thus, are more prone to breakage, PLUS, the T-bars act as a stabilizer- not neccesarily for the chassis itself, but, for the rest of the susp- how/where/what it connects... I can't visualize it all as I haven't studied it or even removed a pair, so I can't give as detailed a description... He ALSO said that it is not a whole lot cheaper as the pieces themselves add up a little- of course, he is comparing tp solid T-bars, which right there, save >$100 over hollow, but, it looks like I'll be going that route anyway... Input on this info? I DO appreciate your willingness to try to help me make a sound decision, but, at the same time, I think you are reading into my reasoning incorrectly at times- by this, I am referring to the hollow vs solid question- IF I could find just ONE person to agree w/Windward on the "hollow's being non-responsive garbage" then it would be a moot point- I just don't know about them at all, so them saying they are trash is ALMOST an endorsement to me.... Have you ever delt w/them?

Thanks,
Robby

Matt H

I see where you are coming from. I would dump them entirely and go to coil over (that is my plan very soon actually). The rear coilover certainly weighs less than the stock shock/t-bar combo. Bilstein AK37354 is a relatively cost effective one. I am sure others will mention the Koni's or Leda's as well. Either way, I am sure you will get to where you are trying to go.
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Robby

Matt- I have already bought the Ledas- hoping they will be as good as the Bilstiens- I WANTED the AK1110/1111s, but was being told everywhere that they would not go on a Turbo S & just got tired of fu**oin w/it...
THEN, I found out that Karl was in the same city as I, & started dealing w/him- Windward is the only place that has shot the Leda's down, thus far... Anyway, I'm not sure if I even still have the option of going Full-CO's, as they may require a dif shock(?), but will speak to Karl about it ONE more time- also, IIRC, he DID say that the price dif was fairly small- the CO's being cheaper, but, not much, & their only REAL benefit being the easy replacement of spring rates, which is not really a factor in my decision, althogh, I'd be stupid not to prefer it everything else being completely equal... Any input here?

Thanks a lot,
robby

Matt H

Any info as to why they wouldnt go on a Turbo S? I have a set of AK110/AK111 (non threaded body, inverted strut). The Ledas would have been 10 times more expensive for me and the Konis were even higher (28 series). The CO would be cheaper than what? I am guessing you have Leda fronts but are running a stock shock/TB in the rear?
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Robby

Matt- where WERE you a month ago when I was all over these forumns for info on the bilsteins...? I asked everyone & they weren't supposed to be made for them, etc- special perches, etc, etc- I just kept getting conflicting info from EVRYONE on what was actually needed- I was looking for the AK1110 & 1111 & then decided that if I had to (& I'd probably be better off) I would get the AK1110-A & 1111-A, but STILL had no luck- the Ledas were the same as rebuilding Turbo S Koni's from Paragon w/new rears- yes I have rear Ledas too- new perches for dif diam springs w/new Hypercoil's, etc- the only thing I need to do now is get T-bars (OR SOMETHING to balance the rear out spring-wise). I don't have ANY Leda's ON the car yet- they just showed up a few days ago which is why I'm so eager to go ahead & order SOMETHING for the rear- I'm going to end it tommorrow & just ask Karl to order solid 27mm's & be done w/it- I'm sick of it ALL really & really find it hard to believe that ANY way would REALLY be any noticeable amount better than than any other way as far as rear springs are concerned, as long as spring rates are balanced & done correctly, etc... BTW- I the LEdas are the non-adj types- really starting to wish I'd help out for Bilsteins- wasn't aware that the Ledas were mono-tubes like Konis- Karl swears by them though & seems to have a good rep, so I'm sure they wont be worsse than the absolute sh** I have there stock since they're new vs old... New Koni's would probably be fine- I ALMOST went that route until I found that Karl was here- still, maybe I'll switch toe the Bil's soon...

BTW- Windward says the AK1110/1111's are the "Firehawks"- is that true? I've always been told the Firehawks were stiffer & that the AK1110/1111's are HD's... any input?

ALSO- WHERE did you get the Bilsteins for your Turbo S?

Thanks

Matt H

Mine is not an S (thats why I asked what was different). AFAIK, the 1110/1111 can be valved 3 different ways (ordered, they can be valved a host of ways when rebuilt) I have seen them numbered AK1120/1121 as well. I think the spring diameter is different from the M030 to the Bilstein but that shouldnt make any difference (you just couldnt use stock perches). If you have a coil over rear, you can dump the T-bars all together and use a higher spring rate. I am sure Tony will let me know if that is wrong, I am 99.9% sure that is what he has (and he just ordered Bilsteins from Lindsey). It would be worth the call to Lindsey to see what they say about using the Bilsteins on a T"S". I for one cannot think of a reason it would not have worked.
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Matt H

BTW - Lindsey lists the AK1110A/1111A (valved 380/150) as the Firehawk setup and the AK1120/1121 (valved 600/190) as the Escort Cup setup. The rears also have different p/n's, one is a standard shock, the other is CO.
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Matt H

Robby - I just talked to Dave at Lindsey and the Bilsteins can be used on an S. According to him there is no difference. They drop-ship but the dist. usually has it all in stock.
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Robby

Interesting on the "Firehawk" #'s stuff... I think the 380/150 is the standard valving & Danno said that was the original HD- they may be calling them Firehawks now, but, the HD is defiantely no longer being used as the name & THAT may be where SOME of the confusion is... Windward ALSO told me that the Turbo S had PROGRESSIVE springs- seems to be incorrect based on what everyone else has said- I just don't trust their info as they've told me so much already, that's why I just assumed they were wrong about the "Firehawk" wording too- doesn't much matter I guess- the shocks are still the 1110/11's- they also wanted ~$1600 for the set-up- half again what the LEda's are running.



I misread- I thought you had an ''89...

I DID call Lindsey- Dave said they had nothing for me- didn't seem to want to look into it either, to be honest- that's the way it's been for MOST places actually....


I really don't care for much higher rates- the standard Bilsteins are valved for to work w/springs in the 200 -350 range from what I understand- too wide of a range I think, but that's what I've been told- I've been told thy're centered more toward the 250-300 range quite well, but... I'M looking for 225lb springs w/27mm T-bars- most people go w/250/28, but I was hoping to err on the side of caution....

Too bad Cervelli got out of the biz- he would have been able to have done them w/no prob & I definately trust him to get the right stuff- He was just sick of the whole 951 situation- can't honestly say as I blame him though- it's just so frustrating- never seen a car w/som much misinformation & conflicting opinions, facts, etc....

Matt H

The Ledas were only 800 bucks?? I thought I saw pricing in the 3K range. The fronts (bilsteins) can be had for about 440 plus 250 or so for the rear, plus springs, perches, etc.

What effective rate does 225 and 27 yield? What if you eliminate them, what rate would you need?

Only talked to Windward once, wasnt impressed, spent money elsewhere.
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Robby

FU**!!! I don't know why he told me differently then- I SPECIFICALLY talked w/him about it...had sent an e-mail & then called him- this was ~4wks ago...

The spring diameter is supposed to be different for one thing, since the S has the Koni CO's up front- if you look at ANY Bilstein sight, you will see that they are NOT offered for the S- doesn't mean they wont work, but anyway, I put forth a good amount of effort trying to find the Bilsteins for this car & could not get definative answers about it, so I decided not to go that route- I've found that EVERY TIME I try to do something w/this car w/out having 100% details about it, I live to regret it- maybe THIS would have been the ONE time to gamble....

Matt H

If not you could have sold them to me! The Koni's use a different spring diameter so you would have to have new perches and springs, that is about it.
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Robby

Yeah- & it sounds like the dif spring perches would have worked for about any dif shock(?)- does it really matter? I'm kind of annoyed at this point- especially w/the threads I submitted here w/out getting ANY info about it at all- It's as if no one on this list even had an S w/Bilsteins....I REALLY tried....what else can ya do...?